Release 27 - Discussion

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby dan » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:47 pm

Thanks for the thought AD, but I don't think that is the likely outcome here, pace, Willy.
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Postby Access Denied » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:51 pm

OK well good luck with that... my bad, I thought maybe you had begun to see the light at the end of the tunnel (or conversely the beginning of the rabbit hole). :)

I see now on the latest updates to your blog that you’ve begun to doubt yourself again.

[sigh]

I’m merely suggesting that’s what they want you do… it keeps the plot from thickening and absolves them of their responsibility to give you the answers you probably don’t want to hear anyway.

Personally, if I ask for and do not get a straight answer, I figure that’s my answer… not that I maybe didn’t ask the right question… but that’s just me. :)
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Postby dan » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:03 pm

I must have said something wrong.
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Postby murnut » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:19 pm

dan wrote:I must have said something wrong.



When has that stopped you before? :wink:

Keep pressing Dan.

Your blog is right on target.
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Postby murnut » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:56 pm

Actually, there is one thing in the blog, that I have a small issue with.

IF, and it is a big IF, there is any truth to the Reagan briefing, The Spiritual aspect of this would come at the end.

Once all the facts had been put on the table for Ronnie, then he would have probably asked for Billy G.

The briefing as laid out was only the very beginning.

Or am I wrong in thinking that Billy would not have been cleared to sit in on this?
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Postby dan » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:13 pm

Mur,
Actually, there is one thing in the blog that I have a small issue with.

IF, and it is a big IF, there is any truth to the Reagan briefing, The Spiritual aspect of this would come at the end.

Once all the facts had been put on the table for Ronnie, then he would have probably asked for Billy G.

The briefing as laid out was only the very beginning.

Or am I wrong in thinking that Billy would not have been cleared to sit in on this?

CK once offered for us to brief GWB, before he was a declared candidate.

If there is any reality here, Ronnie would already have had many such preliminaries.

Would Billy need to have a bigger clearance than me?? Without a bottom line, none of this makes a lick of sense. No right thinking person would take this to be less than an Ultimate Concern.

27a gives not the slightest hint of that.
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Postby dan » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:16 pm

P.S.

Except for the footnote that ‘every religious leader would be in a state of panic’.
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Postby caryn » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:09 pm

I hear from the boss that the ‘R&D’ act has just gone solo. D’s on his own.

As for some of the excerpts on the previous pages..the info relative to the SCI connections etc are so contorted it would be laughable if it wasn’t for the fact that it simply perpetuates the Internet nonsense.
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Postby ryguy » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:32 pm

Access Denied wrote:Personally, if I ask for and do not get a straight answer, I figure that’s my answer… not that I maybe didn’t ask the right question… but that’s just me. :)


I couldn't have said it better myself. Excellent statement above, thank you.

"If I ask for and do not get a straight answer, I figure that's my answer..."

Amen to that.

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Postby ryguy » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:37 pm

caryn wrote:As for some of the excerpts on the previous pages..the info relative to the SCI connections etc are so contorted it would be laughable if it wasn’t for the fact that it simply perpetuates the Internet nonsense.


Could you explain Caryn? I'm not sure what you're referring to above and I'd like to understand...

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Postby caryn » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:59 am

Certainly, Ryan…but not on here. You know where I am if you want to discuss this.
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Postby murnut » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:20 pm

caryn wrote:Certainly, Ryan…but not on here. You know where I am if you want to discuss this.




No fair :cry:
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Postby caryn » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:12 pm

Murnut…I’ll attempt to quash some of the perpetuating Internet nonsense.

Re: Dan’s post –

"The person who hired Pat was his fellow Scientologist, Hal Puthoff under the direct supervision of the CIA contract officer, and fellow Scientologist, Kit Green.

Can you see why CK waxes apoplectic over the counter-intelligence vulnerabilities presented by such negligence? I have heard about this more than I care to remember.

We have high confidence that Hal Puthoff is Victor's primary source and/or confidant in the long and sordid Serpo saga.

Just a few weeks ago it was stated to me that Hal was defrauding the USG. What is contained in the above is far, far more serious than the matter of simple fraud. The sanction in question is the Death Penalty.”


First – Dr Green has never been a member of the Church of Scientology. He made a tentative short-lived enquiry out of curiosity…as in fact I did myself during the late 70s. Anyone who had an interest in the paranormal and psi research around that time would have heard news of the Church and its alleged radical scientific exploration. Hardly any wonder that it raised the curiosity of a few folk. My enquiry lasted all of an hour…

As for Dr Puthoff…I think his involvement is best summed up by his own response to an article written by Martin Gardner for the Skeptical Inquirer.

Dr Puthoff writes: ".... let's take the subject of my brief involvement in Scientology in the early 1970s to which Gardner devotes considerable space. He notes, correctly enough, that I am on record as being no longer involved, but asks "but how much of it does he still buy?" What I "still buy" is that GSR (galvanic skin response) can be used to dredge up forgotten traumatic memories from youth, with some cathartic effect. I learned this first by accident during routine polygraphing for security purposes when I was an NSA employee in the early 1960s. It was this experience that led me out of curiosity to later investigate Scientology procedures from an empirical, firsthand viewpoint. It became obvious to me, however, that, in addition to the expected defects that accompany any circumscribed belief structure, the ethics of the organization in those years was developing some fatal flaws as well, so I severed all connections. It is ironic to me that during the time I was being accused of being a Scientology member by Martin Gardner and others, the Scientologists were picketing me for my outspoken support of those who would dare to call them to task for their activities. So it goes."

For someone who promotes himself as the upholder of truth……Dan’s a little too selective with his truth-telling.
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Postby murnut » Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:17 pm

Thanks Caryn.

Very much Appreciated

There are not many that have the info on the key actors as you do and I am truly grateful for your sharing the info and for your insight.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:25 pm

The article Caryn refers to by Martin Gardner is reprinted below for your convenience. I won't offer my own opinion, I leave it to the reader to decide whether Hal's description of his involvement in Scientology as "brief" is accurate or not.

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Zero-point energy and Harold Puthoff
Skeptical Inquirer, May-June, 1998 by Martin Gardner


"I always get the creeps when people talk about virtual particles."
- Victor Weisskopf, as quoted by K. C. Cole in Science as Metaphor

"One longs for a new Einstein who will, in a flash of insight, give us back our lovely nothingness."
- Leon Lederman, in The God Particle (1993)

In the December 1997 issue of Scientific American, staff writer Philip Yam's article "Exploiting Zero-Point Energy" is devoted to a ten-year struggle by physicist Harold E. Puthoff to build a device that could tap the fluctuating energy of supposedly empty space-time. An episode called "Beyond Science" of PBS's Scientific American Frontiers, which aired on television the previous month, also had a segment devoted to Puthoff's ambitious research program.

What Scientific American failed to reveal, both in Yam's excellent piece and on its TV show, was that Puthoff is none other than the Harold Puthoff who twenty years ago validated the psychic powers of Uri Geller. In 1976 Puthoff and his friend Russell Targ were on the staff of what was then called the Stanford Research Institute (SRI), now SRI International. Their book Mind-Reach (1976) tried to convince the world that ESP, PK (psychokinesis), and precognition now have, thanks to their valiant efforts, become firmly established phenomena. Margaret Mead wrote the book's enthusiastic introduction.

Most of the work of Puthoff and Targ at SRI was devoted to what they called "remote viewing" - the ability of psychics to "see" scenery at any distance away - perhaps even to remote view the surfaces of other planets. Chapter 7 described experiments which they said proved that Israeli magician Uri Geller had strong psychic powers. In later papers Puthoff and Targ claimed astonishing success with an ESP teaching machine. They also claimed to have validated Geller's ability to guess correctly how a die had fallen when shaken inside a closed box.

The original manuscript of Mind-Reach contained several pages outlining what the authors insisted was a sure-fire technique of using precognition to win large sums of money at roulette tables. Although Mead believed strongly in paranormal powers, she objected so vigorously to including this betting method in the book that it was removed from the published edition, though not from proofs sent to reviewers.

Prior to his work at SRI, Puthoff was an active Scientologist. He had been declared what the group calls a "clear" - a person free of "engrams." Engrams are alleged to be records on an embryo's brain, long before it grows ears, of what its pregnant mother is speaking or hearing. These records are said to cause neuroses and psychoses in one's adult life. When Puthoff married, a Scientology minister performed the ceremony. The Church of Scientology proudly published a 1970 notarized letter written by Puthoff when he was a Stanford University physicist specializing in laser research, a topic on which he had coauthored a textbook. Five years earlier he had earned his doctorate in electrical engineering at Stanford.

"Although critics viewing the system [Scientology] from the outside," Puthoff wrote in his letter, "may form the impression that Scientology is just another of many quasi-educational quasi-religious 'schemes,' it is in fact a highly sophistical and highly technological system more characteristic of the best of modern corporate planning and applied technology."

The letter goes on to praise Scientology's E-meter, a simple electronic device used by "auditors" to uncover a patient's engrams. "In the technical community here at Stanford, we have projects underway employing the techniques developed in Scientology." Puthoff adds that Scientology is an "uplifting and workable system of concepts which blend the best of Eastern and Western traditions. After seeing these techniques in operation and experiencing them myself, I am certain that they will be incorporated eventually on a large scale in modern society as the readiness and awareness level develops."

L. Ron Hubbard, the science-fiction writer who invented Scientology and became its guru, wrote a book titled Scientology: A Religion. Puthoff provided its preface. In it he blasts the FDA for calling the E-meter useless. He likens attacks on Scientology to attacks made on Harvey, Galileo, Semmelweiss and Copernicus. "Nevertheless," he concludes, "it is incumbent upon the pioneers of new developments to press forward their discoveries in the face of all opposition."

After leaving SRI in 1987, Puthoff was hired by a think tank in Austin, Texas, called The Institute for Advanced Studies. (It has no connection with the institute of a similar name in Princeton, New Jersey.) On May 28, 1987, at an Austin conference, Puthoff gave a speech on "One Hundred Years of Remote Viewing." He praised the value of precognition in making stock market predictions, and the ability of remote viewers to detect astronomical features of planets before those features are seen by telescopes or space probes. This was followed by a statement of which I hope Puthoff is now thoroughly ashamed. He referred to a 38-year effort by two followers of Madame H. P. Blavatsky, founder of theosophy, to remote view the inner structures of atoms!

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Annie Besant and C. M. Leadbeater published their curious results in a book titled Occult Chemistry (1908). It swarms with drawings of the inner structures of atoms. These outlandish sketches have absolutely no scientific merit, but Puthoff was convinced that occasionally they anticipated modern particle physics! In an excerpt from his speech, quoted in The Explorer (Vol. 4, October 1987), Puthoff called these sketches a "remarkable" study of the "basic constituents of matter." The sketches, he said, "found relatively little correlation with known scientific fact until the recent development of quark and superstring theories, which show striking correspondence to the reported observations." The striking correspondence, alas, is visible only to Puthoff and theosophists.(1)

I do not know what Puthoff now believes about the Besant-Leadbeater micro-remote viewing of the interior of atoms, or about the "genius" of L. Ron Hubbard, or the efficiency of E-meters. Reincarnation was one of a raft of strange doctrines Hubbard added to dianetics when he turned it into a tax-free religion. Today it is as essential a belief for Scientologists as it is for theosophists. Puthoff is on record as saying he no longer is associated with Scientology, but how much of it does he still buy? Does Dr. Puthoff still think that mental ills can result from experiences in previous lives? As far as I know, Puthoff no longer conducts experiments in remote viewing. He and Targ went their separate ways after leaving SRI.

For the past decade Puthoff's tireless efforts, at the Institute for Advanced Studies where he is now director, have gone into searching for a way to obtain unlimited free energy from the quantum fluctuations of empty space. To almost all other experts, this search is as Quixotic and futile as the search for a perpetual motion machine. They see the situation as comparable to having research on how the brain works directed by a neuroscientist who believes in phrenology. According to Yam, Puthoff's institute has examined about ten devices for tapping the energy of space, all of them failures.

Zero-Point Energy (ZPE) is a term for the energy that constantly fluctuates in the vacuum of space and at the heart of all matter. If the temperature of matter could be lowered to absolute zero, it was once thought that its atoms and inner electrons would stop moving and the matter would collapse. It is now known this cannot occur. ZPE keeps the atom constantly jiggling. Heisenberg's famous uncertainty principle forbids it to become motionless.

This jiggling also applies to any particle supposedly at "rest." Imagine an electron being squeezed into a smaller and smaller space by a piston. As the electron's position becomes more accurately known, the uncertainty relation ensures that its momentum becomes fuzzy and more intense. The electron cannot be totally motionless because then its position and its zero momentum would be precisely known. As the electron is squeezed into an increasingly tiny space, its pressure on the piston increases as it strikes the piston with greater force and frequency. It is this pressure of electrons within every atom that preserves the atom in what is called its "ground state.

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The incessant fluttering of all particles when at absolute zero has been verified in numerous ways. The Lamb shift, for example, results from the action of ZPE on spectra. In the famous Casimir effect, ZPE forces two parallel metal plates to move closer together. ZPE causes low-level noise in microwave receivers. It excites the atoms in fluorescent lamps. It plays a role in the surface tension of liquids, in images on eye retinas, in the scatering of light that makes the sky blue, and many other physical phenomena. In cosmology it sends out radiation from black holes. Its pressure prevents gravity from collapsing white dwarf stars.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle also underlies one of the most bizarre aspects of quantum theory. The vacuum of space-time is by no means "nothing." It is a foaming sea of constantly bubbling particles that flash into existence for fleeting microseconds only to be absorbed back into the mother sea from which they momentarily borrowed a tiny bit of energy.

Time and energy, like position and momentum, also are subject to the uncertainty relation. If the time during which energy is measured is known exactly, the amount of energy becomes uncertain. The shorter the time interval, the greater the uncertainty. When the interval is short enough, it allows energy to appear from nowhere in the vacuum of space provided it vanishes fast enough back into the mother sea to preserve the vacuum's overall zero energy.

This energy that randomly pops out of empty space takes the form of particle-antiparticle pairs that mutually annihilate. This happens much too fast to be observed, but can be inferred from other phenomena. On the average, the pairs exist for about 0.00000 00000 00000 00000 1 of a second, with a maximum distance between them of about 0.00000 00001 of a centimeter.

Every type of particle known is believed to emerge briefly from the churning vacuum, the lighter particles such as electrons and photons more frequently than heavier particles such as protons, neutrons, and quarks. It is theoretically possible that a macro object such as an apple might be created for an instant, but the probability of this is far too low to allow it. These ghostly particles are called "virtual" to distinguish them from their "real" forms that persist in time.

The fluctuation of particle pairs occurs within all quantum fields, but mainly in electromagnetic and gravity fields. The gravity field presumably generates the conjectured, but so far undetected, massless graviton-antigraviton pairs. The energy-time uncertainty also allows every real particle to be surrounded by a cloud of virtual particles of all varieties that are constantly being emitted and absorbed by the seething vacuum that surrounds the real particle.

Here is how Heinz Pagels, in The Cosmic Code, describes the vacuum of space:

Space looks empty only because this great creation and destruction of all the quanta takes place over such short times and distances. Over long distances the vacuum appears placid and smooth - like the ocean which appears quite smooth when we fly high above it in a jet airplane. But at the surface of the ocean, close up to it in a small boat, the sea can be high and fluctuating with great waves. Similarly, the vacuum fluctuates with the creation and destruction of quanta if we look closely at it.

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In 1973 physicist Edward Tryon made a startling proposal in a two-page paper titled "Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation?" (Nature, Vol. 246, pp. 396-97). He suggested that a vacuum fluctuation may have triggered the big bang! As he put it, "Our universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time." This implies that space and time existed before the bang. Other physicists have since proposed slightly different ways a quantum fluctuation in a vacuum devoid of space and time could create a runaway universe, though how something could fluctuate without space and time is unclear. Of course our universe could not emerge from absolutely nothing. There would have to be quantum fields to fluctuate, leaving unanswered the ultimate question of where quantum fields and their laws came from, or why there is something rather than nothing.

In recent years a number of physicists have wondered if it possible to somehow tap the ZPE of the fidgety vacuum. Most physicists consider this hopeless. At the end of the PBS's Scientific American Frontiers show, Steven Weinberg, the Nobel prize-winning physicist now at the University of Texas, in Austin, pointed out how weak this energy is. In the entire universe, he said, it is enormous, but the total amount of ZPE available in a space the size of the earth is about the same as the energy obtainable from a gallon of gasoline. Trapping this energy of course means that a machine must be able to snatch energy from the virtual particles before they disappear. No one has any good idea of how this could be done, and even if it could be, the energy available would be insignificant.

British physicist Paul Davies, in Other Worlds (1980), had this to say in Chapter 4: "There is no question . . . of running a machine on borrowed energy. . . . The energy output from an electric light emitted in one second can only be borrowed via the uncertainty principle for a billion-billion-billion-billionth of a second. Put another way, the quantum loan mechanism can only enhance the output from an electric light by one part in one followed by 36 zeros."

Puthoff disagrees. Like other mavericks working on ZPE machines, he sees the opposition of mainstream physicists to such research as the irrational knee jerks of an elite. "Most working physicists are not really scientists," he told an interviewer in 1990. "They are number crunchers, computer operators, lab technicians. It's not all their fault. It's driven largely by the military-industrial complex."(2) In many technical papers and several popularly written articles he has defended the possibility of obtaining unlimited energy from empty space. In Scientific American's PBS broadcast he predicted that just as this century is known as the nuclear age, so will the next millennium be known as the zero-point energy age.

Puthoff sees himself as a lonely pioneer whose research he is confident will usher in this awesome new age. In his paper "Quantum Fluctuations of Empty Space: A New Rosetta Stone of Physics?" (a speech reprinted in Frontier Perspectives, Vol. 2, Fall/Winter 1991, 19-23, 43) he predicts that tapping ZPE will revolutionize history. "Only the future," he concludes, "will reveal to what use humanity will eventually put this remaining fire of the gods. . . ."

---

Many of Puthoff's recent conjectures are far out on the fringes of physics. He believes that gravity may be caused by ZPE in a manner similar to the way it causes the Casimir effect. He suggests that electrons are kept in their atomic orbits by ZPE, and that if atoms could be "shrunk" to a lower ground state they would radiate ZPE. Inertia, he thinks, may be caused by resistance of ZPE whenever objects are accelerated. If this resistance could be reduced, it would provide a great advance in the rocket propulsion speed of spaceships. In "SETI, the Velocity-of-Light Limitation, and the Alcubierre Warp Drive: An Integrating Overview" (in Physics Essays, Vol. 9, 1996, pp. 156-58), Puthoff defends the possibility that spaceships could travel faster than light if the ZPE could be handled properly?

Just as Puthoff and Targ were able to obtain millions in funding dollars for their SRI research on remote viewing, so Puthoff is now raking in considerable funds from sources he prefers not to disclose. Many physicists are dismayed by this because they regard Puthoff's views as pseudoscience that is diverting funds from more promising investigations. It remains to be seen if in the next few decades this eccentric physicist will turn out to be one of the greatest scientists of all time, or whether his ZPE speculations and work will blow away like the flawed research he supervised when he and Targ were in their glory days at SRI.

1. For details on the remote viewing of atoms, consult Extrasensory Perception of Quarks (Theosophical Publishing House, 1980), by British physicist Stephen M. Phillips; his two-part article "Extrasensory Perception of Subatomic Particles," in Fate (April and May 1987); and "Resolution in Remote-Viewing Studies: Mini- and Micro Targets," by Puthoff, Targ, and Charles Tart, an SRI report of June 1979.

2. Puthoff is so quoted in "Power Structure," by Tom Chalkey, in Baltimore's City Paper, June 29, 1990.

3. Arthur C. Clarke, in his 1997 novel 3001, takes Puthoff's conjecture about inertia seriously enough to base an inertial space drive on ZPE. See Chapter 9 and notes on this chapter at the back of the book.

Martin Gardner's latest book is The Last Recreations (Springer-Verlag, Copernicus, 1997), a collection of twenty-three of his Scientific American columns from the last seven years before his retirement from the magazine in 1981.

COPYRIGHT 1998 Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
COPYRIGHT 2000 Gale Group

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Bibliography for "Zero-point energy and Harold Puthoff - physicist - Column"
Martin Gardner "Zero-point energy and Harold Puthoff - physicist - Column". Skeptical Inquirer. May-June 1998. FindArticles.com. 05 Nov. 2007. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 6Continued from page 5. Previous - 5 - 6

Articles in May-June 1998 issue of Skeptical Inquirer
Psychic telephone networks profit on yearning, gullibility
by Matthew Nisbet
Case closed: reflections on the 1997 Air Force Roswell report - Roswell, New Mexico - Special Section: The Aliens Files - Cover Story
by Bernard D. Gildenberg
'Therapeutic Touch' fails a rare scientific test
Gray Barker: my friend, the myth-maker - Special Section: The Aliens Files - Cover Story
by John C. Sherwood
Gish and creationism at Murray State: a child's garden of verses - biochemist Duane T. Gish
by Gaynor Wild
A skeptic living in Roswell - New Mexico - Special Section: The Aliens Files - Cover Story
by Martha A. Churchill
ABC's 'Prey' - not exactly the science adventure promised
by Peter Huston
Multiple personality disorder: witchcraft survives in the twentieth century
by August Piper, Jr.
Zero-point energy and Harold Puthoff - physicist - Column
by Martin Gardner
The UFO Invasion: The Roswell Incident, Alien Abductions, and Government Coverups. - book reviews
by Peter Huston
Alien abductions as sleep-related phenomena - Column
by Joe Nickell
The Real Roswell Crashed Saucer Coverup. - book reviews
by David E. Thomas
From Ark-eology to UFOlogy, from Ararat to Arizona - Column
by Robert Sheaffer
Could experimenter effects occur in the physical and biological sciences?
by Rupert Sheldrake
Testing 'Put to the Test.' - television program - Column
by Ian C. Maione
Gimme that ol'-time logical consistency - believers and non-believers among scientists
by Ralph Estling
Abduction by aliens or sleep paralysis? - Special Section: The Aliens Files - Cover Story
by Susan Blackmore
Before Roswell: the meaning behind the crashed-UFO myth - Roswell, New Mexico - Special Section: The Aliens Files - Cover Story
by Robert E. Bartholomew
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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