Release 27 - Discussion

Project Serpo related discussion

Moderators: ryguy, chrLz, Zep Tepi

Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:02 pm

Okay...maybe I will offer a tiny bit of my opinion.

caryn wrote:
Dr Puthoff writes: ".... let's take the subject of my brief involvement in Scientology in the early 1970s to which Gardner devotes considerable space. He notes, correctly enough, that I am on record as being no longer involved, but asks "but how much of it does he still buy?" What I "still buy" is that GSR (galvanic skin response) can be used to dredge up forgotten traumatic memories from youth, with some cathartic effect. I learned this first by accident during routine polygraphing for security purposes when I was an NSA employee in the early 1960s. It was this experience that led me out of curiosity to later investigate Scientology procedures from an empirical, firsthand viewpoint. It became obvious to me, however, that, in addition to the expected defects that accompany any circumscribed belief structure, the ethics of the organization in those years was developing some fatal flaws as well, so I severed all connections. It is ironic to me that during the time I was being accused of being a Scientology member by Martin Gardner and others, the Scientologists were picketing me for my outspoken support of those who would dare to call them to task for their activities. So it goes."

For someone who promotes himself as the upholder of truth……Dan’s a little too selective with his truth-telling.


Surely, you see the conflict between his description of "brief involvement" and:

- About Seven years as a Scientologist
- Reaching the highest level in Scientology available at the time
- Providing the Preface for L. Ron Hubbard's book Scientology: A Religion

In his response, above, to Martin Gardner’s criticism, he fails to respond to critical points within Martin’s 1998 article “Zero-point energy and Harold Puthoff”. One item Martin points out in this article, which few people realize, is the following: “L. Ron Hubbard, the science-fiction writer who invented Scientology and became its guru, wrote a book titled Scientology: A Religion. Puthoff provided its preface. In it he blasts the FDA for calling the E-meter useless. He likens attacks on Scientology to attacks made on Harvey, Galileo, Semmelweis and Copernicus. “Nevertheless,” he concludes, “it is incumbent upon the pioneers of new developments to press forward their discoveries in the face of all opposition.”

In the 1998 article by Martin Gardner in the Skeptical Inquirer, he writes:


“The Church of Scientology proudly published a 1970 notarized letter written by Puthoff when he was a Stanford University physicist specializing in laser research, a topic on which he had coauthored a textbook. Five years earlier he had earned his doctorate in electrical engineering at Stanford.

"Although critics viewing the system [Scientology] from the outside," Puthoff wrote in his letter, "may form the impression that Scientology is just another of many quasi-educational quasi-religious 'schemes,' it is in fact a highly sophistical and highly technological system more characteristic of the best of modern corporate planning and applied technology."

The letter goes on to praise Scientology's E-meter, a simple electronic device used by "auditors" to uncover a patient's engrams. "In the technical community here at Stanford, we have projects underway employing the techniques developed in Scientology." Puthoff adds that Scientology is an "uplifting and workable system of concepts which blend the best of Eastern and Western traditions. After seeing these techniques in operation and experiencing them myself, I am certain that they will be incorporated eventually on a large scale in modern society as the readiness and awareness level develops."


Brief involvement?

From: Source #1 (Dan's CK) [**note - removed source name**]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:02 AM
To: ryguy@reality_unc_over_ed.com
Cc: Dan Smith
Subject: Origin of Core Story

I did not intend to imply that the core story was originated in Remote Viewing, but that it was transferred into government records via that process. My actual hypothesis regarding the Core Story is that it originated within Scientology during the early 1970s. Scientologists dominated the early Remote Viewing program and used it as a venue to promulgate the Core Story.


I don't see how the hypothesis above, offered as a response to my questioning different people regarding the origins of the original "Core Story" (Not Collin's version of it) could be considered pushing the limits of reason or logic - and it certainly backs some of Dan's assertions above as well. (Notice that Dan was cc'd on the email above.)

Is it hard to see how these Scientists brought Scientology practices into their Scientific research?

According to Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, in The Secret Life of Plants, while at SRI, Puthoff did experiments with chicken eggs. Using an e-meter (invented by L. Ron Hubbard and used in the practices of Scientology), he attempted to see if an egg would react if another was broken nearby.
(Tompkins, Peter and Bird, Christopher, The Secret Life of Plants, Harper and Row, 1973, pg 29)


I'd say the premise isn't all that far fetched. Later, Ingo Swann created the "CRV Manual" - an RV training process developed by Swann based on principles of Scientology, in many respects a militarized process of "auditing".

While I personally don't believe it's central to the motives relating to why these stories were created (MJ12, Serpo and others), and may not personally agree with the exact path in which Dan connects the dots, I honestly don't see connecting Scientology to different aspects of what we see going on within Ufology to be all that far-fetched, or at all similar to far-flung internet rumours or conspiracy theories?

I tend to feel, in this case, that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and that there are enough dots on the page to warrant connecting at least one or two of the less radical ideas.

-Ry


KING LEAR:
No, no, no, no! Come, let's away to prison:
We two alone will sing like birds i' the cage:
When thou dost ask me blessing, I'll kneel down,
And ask of thee forgiveness: so we'll live,
And pray, and sing, and tell old tales, and laugh
At gilded butterflies, and hear poor rogues
Talk of court news; and we'll talk with them too,
Who loses and who wins; who's in, who's out;
And take upon's the mystery of things,
As if we were God's spies: and we'll wear out,
In a wall'd prison, packs and sects of great ones,
That ebb and flow by the moon.
Last edited by ryguy on Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby caryn » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:56 pm

"(Notice that Dan was cc'd on the email above.) "

Of course he was cc’d..where else did he get the idea from? In fact it was brought up with Dan way before that particular email. And who first brought it to your attention? What is it….only you (and Dan evidently) were able to connect the dots? Gold star for both. Me dumb!

Sorry Ryan, who am I more likely to listen to…..the people who were actually involved, and whose experiences correspond with my own observations of associated circles re: the people, the scene, the notions great and crazy alike…or, a remote entity who ‘connects dots’?

Is it possible that components of the core mythology of Scientology have bled or forced their way into other areas…I couldn’t say that’s impossible…I have my own little intrigue going on with the Manila envelope…re: yellow book. Shelrpo could almost wholly be based on SCI mythology.

What the Shlerpo crap does is distract attention from any genuine signal with all the clatter it induces -that may or may not be intentional re: blotting out the signal. That rather depends on the motives or beliefs of those dishing out the pap. But I wouldn’t be too quick to point the finger at individuals.

BTW did it occur to you that scientology was itself borrowing concepts from elsewhere? And those elsewheres were in turn borrowing from elsewhere.

A pinch of the spiritual, a drop of science, a dab of magic and a ladel of fantasy- Put 'em together and what have you got……bibbidi-bobbidi-boo.

But there is real gold, in them there hills…behind the fabricated blocks….and I doubt it comes in tin cans.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:07 am

caryn wrote:Of course he was cc’d..where else did he get the idea from? In fact it was brought up with Dan way before that particular email. And who first brought it to your attention?


Who first brought what "to our attention"?

What is it….only you (and Dan evidently) were able to connect the dots? Gold star for both. Me dumb!


No one has called you dumb, you don't need to get defensive Caryn. Yes, Dan may be attempting to connect some dots. We haven't even begun to publicly "connect dots" at this point, on this topic. The Scientology connections he mentions are ideas that have been around for a while, but they're not all "internet-rumor-mill" nonsense. That was the only point.

Sorry Ryan, who am I more likely to listen to…..the people who were actually involved, and whose experiences correspond with my own observations of associated circles re: the people, the scene, the notions great and crazy alike…or, a remote entity who ‘connects dots’?


Yes, in a world where everyone tells the truth - where a bank robber walks up to the police officer with his hands up and shouts "I did it! I did it!" - that might work. When people answer questions selectively, specifically, and in a manner that is only complete enough to answer your question literally, yet not "quite" complete enough to tell the whole story - then where's the rest of the story going to come from?

It comes from others who were also involved, during the same time, in the same places, but who might tell a more complete story.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:28 am

Glad to see you hangin' out again, Caryn:

caryn wrote:BTW did it occur to you that scientology was itself borrowing concepts from elsewhere? And those elsewheres were in turn borrowing from elsewhere.


A point that I will continue to highlight, ad nauseum, for now and forever...amen! ;)

In the past I have pointed out that the Bridge to Clear (a mainstay of Scientology) is nothing but a reformatted and renamed Tree Of Life, that Hubbard ripped-off from Crowley and OTO. Crowley was a tad more above-board in where he "borrowed" his information (but no less egotistical than Hubbard). And in other threads in other forums, I have made it known that elements of "borrowed tech" (and "tech" is what scientology calls any process that "works") also exist/existed within the social constructs known as Masonry, Templars... and yes, one of the biggest borrowers from myths-apast... the Catholic Church. (Hint: The Virgin Mary was not the first "virgin who gave birth to the Savior" in the history of man).

It is a pervasive error, and it is totally attributable to ego. Ego always gets in the way, and will forever get in our way until we can simply relay the information, being honest about who and where we borrowed it from, and admit that there is really nothing new under the sun. Not surprising that it is also ego that embellishes otherwise truthful stories ("The Core Story") and turns it into a mishmash of useful and useless. And it is the ego behind Schlerpo that is screaming for attention that soils the whole operation, and causes those with reasonable minds to seek the INTENTION behind the release of this crap.

With that said comes my own caveat: NOTHING I have shared here (about information theory, systems theory, Tree Of Life, or any other "tech") is unique to me. I am nothing more than a conduit presenting old ideas with sometimes fresh (sometimes not) perspectives.

Ray
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Postby caryn » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:14 am

Ryan,

Don’t be daft, I’m not getting defensive.

Ray, above, expounds further on the point I was making.

Attempting to pinpoint ‘a’ main culprit or ‘an’ organisation as the sole perpetrators of a wide spectrum of ‘out of the box’ thought processes - although admirable, will inevitably prove to be a futile exercise.

I admit I’m a little bias, Ryan. I’ve spent the good part of 30 years embroiled within the paranormal ‘scene’, both intellectually and physically. I naturally gravitate towards those who display an empirical interest – I’ve met a number of folk with scientific backgrounds who do indeed take an empirical interest, often to the detriment of their standing within the scientific community. The men and woman who have the balls to take that initiative will always have my admiration.

I also understand that the hesitance in answering questions posed by new researchers on the block is simply due to exasperation, having attempted to address the same questions countless times over the years, to little avail.

Inevitably, Ryan, people will simply believe what they want to believe – whether that belief is grounded in fact, or not.
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On the matter of faking / inserting IP "addresses"

Postby cgreen » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:41 pm

Well over two years ago I weighed in publically saying I had been told unequivocally that it was possible to "insert" a fake IP address, specifically as the "Originating IP" in an email, thus making it appear, for example...that I [or others mentioned often by name] had sent an email I [they] had not. The sources were, and are still, qualified by background to make such statements. My additional statements, often misquoted, and taken out-of context later in the retelling and the re-posting and the blogging ... included (and expanded slightly here for context) : "To the extent that tampering with email IP addresses of fake senders is possible and is occuring...it must be a National Means Program, and if this is so...it means to me since I support fully my government and security processes I therefore believe (only my judgement...I know) ...that the reasons for doing so...if it is occuring...are legal."

ALL that said: I have tried mightily in the past two years to have someone...in the government, out of the government, expert, hacker, and other categories too numerous to mention...to give me one unambiguous example of how to insert an "Originating IP" in an email and thus show me at least one White Crow.

I have not received, nor been instructed, nor shown even an Ambiguous, much less an Un-ambiguous example of this. But, my personal analysis of the entire Soap Opera has...right or wrong...led me to conclude that my original belief that National Program is involved (and hence sophisticated mimicry of email Headers possible) is not likely. In my view, much more likely is the much more trivial Game of Blog with Delusion, by Design and Intent as well as from time-to-time, Frank Illness.

kit








Zep Tepi wrote:I've noticed today that some revisionism and outright misinformation is going on, so I thought I would try to stem the tide of nonsense as best I can and provide some actual facts. No spin, no lies, no disinfo, just the plain old truth. If you believe the Serpo releases are part of an official and ongoing program of disclosure, this post is probably not for you ;)

Certain quarters are talking about one of the central characters, Paul McGovern, as if he is a bona-fide, actual living person. Well, he is a living person, but his name ain't Paul - It's Rick Doty. One only has to read the information on hand at this site to be left in no doubt. But to make it easier, we will look at some newer data. Rick is not just confined to playing the role of fictitious characters either, he has also gone in for some gender-bending and taken on the persona of a certain Tamara Linden, a lady we have discussed on this site previously, and will do so again.

Back in late August of this year, a small number of people were engaged in discussion via email about certain aspects of the soap opera. This self-proclaimed elite group were discussing the outrageous "Gate 3 Incident", and included emails from Paul MCGovern and Tamara Linden.

As with all emails purporting to hail from McGovern, the IP headers told a rather different story. It came as no surprise to see that they originated at Rick Doty's computer. The same IP address was also present in Tamara Linden's emails. You would think they would have learned to use a proxy service by now (actually they have, more on that later)!

We have discussed the IP issue with several people in the past, including those close to Rick. They had always attempted to provide a serious explanation for this simple fact, but the truth of the matter is they failed every single time. Kind of makes you wonder why they try to defend the indefensible in the first place, doesn't it?

Before we go on, here is the relevant information contained in the actual headers

Paul McGovern
Received:from [71.213.130.36] by web56910.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Aug 2007 04:56:42 PDT

Tamara Linden
Received:from [71.213.130.36] by web57011.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Aug 2007 05:00:32 PDT

You will note they both share the exact same IP address: 71.213.130.36

Seeing as we had already discussed the earlier IP matches from the onset of Serpo with friends of Rick, I decided to contact him directly and ask for his own take on the matter. Before I show you what was said, here is the information from the header of his reply:

Rick Doty
Received: from [71.213.130.36] by BAY104-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:12:03 +0000

As you can see, the IP address of the computer that sent all 3 emails is identical.

Here is the text of the email I sent Rick:

From: Stephen Broadbent
To: 'RICK DOTY'
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 17:05
Subject: Tamara and Paul

Hi Rick, hope everything is fine at your end.
I am in the process of writing a little something on the latest releases of information, and thought I would give you a fair chance at responding to part of it before it gets published. I've noticed, as have some others, that the IP addresses for Paul McGovern and Tamara Linden trace back to your computer. I've heard some explanations for this in the past, but never from you yourself. Rather than going off half-cocked and just "running with it", I would be very grateful if you would be prepared to provide an answer.
This isn't a trap of any kind and I will be fair in accurately reporting any response you may give and will not put any "spin" on it whatsoever.

Thanks for your time!


Rick replied a little later:

You really need to go pick on bigger fishes. I have nothing to do with McGovern or Linden, which isn't really her real name. I can send emails out all days with your IP address on them.

I have absolutely nothing to do with those two people. Since two people of significance have met Mr. McGovern and proved he was a real person, you should concentrate your efforts on more important discrepancies within the UFO community.

I have distance myself from the subject of UFOs. I have kept silent, except to make comments.

I turned my two computers over to the FBI this year for examination, at the request
of a certain official in DC. They didn't find any other emails stored, except my personal yahoo.com (rdoty166@yahoo.com), an aol account and my msn account.

You go publish anything you wish, as long as it isn't libel. I can counter anything you publish with libel. That's the law.



What follows is my reply to Rick. There was no further correspondence with him and none of my challenges were met. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The same "inserting IP header" claim has been made before by his friends, but when challenged to do exactly that they have consistently failed to put their money where their mouth is. (Emphasis added)

Hi Rick, thanks for replying – much appreciated.

You wrote:
“I can send emails out all days with your IP address on them.”

My reply:
A number of people have said this to me in the past, but when challenged not one of them could do so. It is a relatively easy task to insert an IP address into the header of an email. It’s a different matter entirely to remove the actual sending IP address and change it with another – especially when using web-based email service providers like Yahoo and MSN etc. I would be mightily impressed if you reply to this email (for example) and change your Ip address to mine (for example). In fact, I would go as far as amending the articles that discuss this very fact on the RU website.

Snip

You wrote:
“..you should concentrate your efforts on more important discrepancies within the UFO community.”

My reply:
Would you care to elaborate? I would be happy to do so if pointed in the right direction.

You wrote:
“They didn’t find any emails stored, except my personal yahoo.com, an aol account and my msn account.”

My reply:
In all of these cases, the emails have originated from web-based email servers and as such the emails would be stored online on a server, not on the hard-drive of a personal computer.

You wrote:
“you go publish anything you wish, as long as it isn’t libel.”

My reply:
Like I said in my email below, I intend to be fair and I have no interest in insulting you or being nasty in any way. I know you have gotten a great deal of that in the past, and the past is the best place for it, in my opinion.

Cheers,
Steve


At least I tried :roll:

You will note I neglected to mention anything about this little nugget:
"You go publish anything you wish, as long as it isn't libel. I can counter anything you publish with libel. That's the law. "

What can you say to that?! :shock:

As far as the IP headers go, they show conclusively that those emails originated at Rick's computer. He can deny it until he is blue in the face, it doesn't alter the facts.

His comment:
I have absolutely nothing to do with those two people. Since two people of significance have met Mr. McGovern and proved he was a real person, you should concentrate your efforts on more important discrepancies within the UFO community.


Makes little to no sense whatsoever. We know for a fact that these two people of significance never asked for any kind of ID when they "met Paul". A driving license would have been something, at least. Simply saying "Hi I'm Paul McGovern" does not make a person Paul McGovern. It could have been me!
I find it very amusing that he says he has "absolutely nothing to do with those two people" - in that case, what was he doing with "McGovern" at the Laughlin conference?!

So many questions, no answers...

Our (soon-to-be-released-honest) report will include an extensive section on Rick Doty, but I would just like to point out that he is not the man behind the curtain. He knows who is though...

Cheers,
Zep
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:50 pm

caryn wrote:Ryan,

Don’t be daft, I’m not getting defensive.


Good! You had me nervous there for a moment, I re-read my previous post multiple times to see if I had said something about you specifically that could have been insulting?

Ray, above, expounds further on the point I was making.


I agree with Ray, for the most part. Except - when someone sends emails as other people, or plays cloak-and-dagger games with people like Moore and Shandera, and actively contacts people or sends out film with alleged 'secrets', or delivers manilla envelopes to hotel rooms....sorry guys, but magic (or magik) didn't do it. Someone did. That's intent.

Attempting to pinpoint ‘a’ main culprit or ‘an’ organisation as the sole perpetrators of a wide spectrum of ‘out of the box’ thought processes - although admirable, will inevitably prove to be a futile exercise.


I simply disagree. But that's fine.

I admit I’m a little bias, Ryan. I’ve spent the good part of 30 years embroiled within the paranormal ‘scene’, both intellectually and physically. I naturally gravitate towards those who display an empirical interest – I’ve met a number of folk with scientific backgrounds who do indeed take an empirical interest, often to the detriment of their standing within the scientific community. The men and woman who have the balls to take that initiative will always have my admiration.


Caryn - I completely understand. I remember that our very, very first email exchange, before we had gotten to know eachother better, was when Steve, Shawnna and I were posting various things to Jack's list. One comment I made involved Hal - and you immediately emailed me letting me know, rather kindly though, that you are interested in what we are researching, but if it has anything to do with pointing at Hal, you want nothing to do with it. I absolutely respect that request Caryn.

Inevitably, Ryan, people will simply believe what they want to believe – whether that belief is grounded in fact, or not.


Yes - and inevitably, whatever anyone puts out there based on their research, be it you, us, OM, Gary, Dan, or any well-known researcher out there, anyone who disagrees with the findings, or doesn't want to believe it, will find a way to claim that it isn't grounded in fact.

All we can do is present enough evidence to support those findings.

BTW...this isn't to hint we're publishing anything about Hal...I was simply defending Dan's statement with the hypothesis that Ron had put out a while back (certainly not the first time Dan heard it - but proof that he did hear it, and wasn't creating fiction from nothing).

But we have to keep in mind, that with these disseminated stories, from real emails, real manilla folders and fedex packages, there are real people with real intent.

-Ry
Last edited by ryguy on Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:55 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Not surprising that it is also ego that embellishes otherwise truthful stories ("The Core Story") and turns it into a mishmash of useful and useless.


What is your definition of the real "Core Story", and what makes you believe it is at all true?

-Ry
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:01 pm

Hi Ry,

ryguy wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Not surprising that it is also ego that embellishes otherwise truthful stories ("The Core Story") and turns it into a mishmash of useful and useless.


What is your definition of the real "Core Story", and what makes you believe it is at all true?


My "definition" of the "Core Story" goes far, far, FAR beyond aliens and UFO visitations to something much more basic... the nature of consciousness as a system. Frankly, I see the entire "UFO sandbox" as merely the latest dressings on something that has been discussed, described, debated, and used to manipulate people for a long, long time. It is why I find Scarz's postings so relevant (although I strip-off the religious undertones, as I see them as yet another window dressing).

What makes me believe that the "Core Story" (as I see it) is true? Well, probably the same answer that most people would give: My experiences and my research into "covert" or "occult" knowledge. More than once I have pointed out to Kim in a debate here that "ANY technology can be used for good OR evil" which is why INTENTION is the root of all activities. This is why I will immediately reject "bible thumpers" and other "religious fanatics" as claiming that anything occult must = the devil. Has a lot of occult knowledge been used for evil? You betcha. But because of the "cloak of secrecy" that most "lodges" adopt about this stuff, it is quite difficult to show where the same occult tech has been employed and applied for GOOD. Yet the "secrets" of Mason tech is literally infused in every medievel cathedral in the world (in this case we are talking about "sacred" geometry). And I have also pointed out that the "3x3" structure of the US government (Exec-Legis-Judic x Fed-State-Local) is quite overtly a Masonic structure, when you know what to look for. Did the Founding Fathers apply this Masonic Tech for evil? I don't think that was their intent. I think they were aware of the penultimate balance of such a 3x3 matrix system, and so they built a New World Order around the stability of such a structure. It worked. But it also finds itself at a crossroads at this moment in time.

So this is why I do not typically get "wrapped-up" in the UFO dressing. It is ALL garbage to me, and it pains me when I see Sarfatti slide in that direction of offering it legitimacy (but then again, he has had his own experiences). I am seeking to crack a nut that I believe is not only much deeper, but MUCH more meaningful to all forms of sentient life... be they from earth or anywhere else.

That's MY "Core Story" and I'm stickin to it! :lol:

Ray
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:16 pm

Hi again,

ryguy wrote:I agree with Ray, for the most part. Except - when someone sends emails as other people, or plays cload-and-dagger games with people like Moore and Shandera, and actively contacts people or sends out film with alleged 'secrets', or delivers manilla envelopes to hotel rooms....sorry guys, but magic (or magik) didn't do it. Someone did. That's intent.


It's "magick". :) But don't get me wrong, I am in full agreement with you on this, Ryan. There are certainly MANY people who are playing games. But I have found that folks who understand that intention subsumes information have also learned to keep their layers of intention well organized. So while it seems obvious to me (thanks to your and Steve's research) that Doty has a specific intention to play games, I think there are layers of intention below that which are hard (if not impossible) to read from the tea leaves.

Ray
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:26 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:My "definition" of the "Core Story" goes far, far, FAR beyond aliens and UFO visitations to something much more basic... the nature of consciousness as a system. Frankly, I see the entire "UFO sandbox" as merely the latest dressings on something that has been discussed, described, debated, and used to manipulate people for a long, long time. It is why I find Scarz's postings so relevant (although I strip-off the religious undertones, as I see them as yet another window dressing).


Interesting and excellent reply. I find everyone's version of the Core Story to be fascinating, especially when expounded upon by such intelligent folks. I certainly have my own version of the Core Story - which, like you and Caryn, is based on personal experience and evolves constantly.

One difference: Your Core Story, Caryn's Core Story, mine, Steve's or anyone elses - has not made it into a philosophy that has been distributed repeatedly via the "UFO sandbox" beginning more overtly in 1987 with MJ12, but even before then....back into the 70's. And this isn't a reference to any belief set, or any viral meme conspiracy....I reference a specific small group of people who actively contacted others over 30 years ago in an effort to distribute a core philosophy. Not yours, not mine, but theirs..

When I asked what your definition of the Core Story is - that's the one I was referring to... While we certainly have an interest in the physical/spiritual, or metaphysical realities around us - the distribution of Serpo, MJ12, etc..etc...ad nauseum is a human matter...the one we're investigating.

With that said, I have great respect for the theories and beliefs put forth by people here, which includes Caryn, you, Scarz, and everyone else who has taken the time to share their personal and strongly-held beliefs. The great thing that I've noticed is that not a single one of you believe you are so right, that you are so brilliant and intelligent, that you've got such a handle on the truth, that you need to force it upon others.

-Ry
Last edited by ryguy on Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:29 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:So while it seems obvious to me (thanks to your and Steve's research) that Doty has a specific intention to play games, I think there are layers of intention below that which are hard (if not impossible) to read from the tea leaves.

Ray


Thanks for your kind words Ray. The reality about the games, in addition to your point above - is that Doty doesn't work alone. It wasn't impossible to perceive and prove his involvement, and it isn't impossible with others.

-Ry
Last edited by ryguy on Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:36 pm

ryguy wrote:The reality about the games, in addition to your point above - is that Doty doesn't work alone. It wasn't impossible to ferret out his involvement, and it isn't impossible to ferret out others.


Yep. Completely agree with you there, Ryan. But just how many layers of intention are there, and do folks at "layer 1" (Doty et.al.) know about the deeper layers of intention? It is my gut feeling that the UFO sandbox is merely an extant layer for drawing-in the gullible so that the true intention of deeper layers can "work on them". And I think those deeper layers are more interested in affecting human consciousness towards certain directions. For all I know those directions could be for the good of mankind... or not! ;)

Ray
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Re: On the matter of faking / inserting IP "addresses&a

Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:55 pm

cgreen wrote:I have not received, nor been instructed, nor shown even an Ambiguous, much less an Un-ambiguous example of this. But, my personal analysis of the entire Soap Opera has...right or wrong...led me to conclude that my original belief that National Program is involved (and hence sophisticated mimicry of email Headers possible) is not likely. In my view, much more likely is the much more trivial Game of Blog with Delusion, by Design and Intent as well as from time-to-time, Frank Illness.

kit


Thank you Kit.

-Ry
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:55 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: And I think those deeper layers are more interested in affecting human consciousness towards certain directions. For all I know those directions could be for the good of mankind... or not! ;)

Ray


Also...the spread of Anglo-Christian culture into Native American tribal lands, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, and many other human endeavors (whether we consider them good or bad) - have always been considered for the good of mankind by those conducting themselves under the pretext of being enlightened.

In other words, I think you're right...I agree that at times it does appear that those are the conditions "they" believe they are operating under.

-Ry
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