Bob Collins and Exempt from Disclosure

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby ryguy » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:18 am

uberarcanist wrote:Maybe I'm reading the posts wrong, but from the sounds of it, it's still very tough to try to figure out who to believe, if anyone at all. Was SERPO the work of disinfo agents, nuts, people out to make a buck, or some combination of all of the previous? We may never know, and I expect we'll be faced with similar SERPOs in the future!


Yes, it's hard to figure out who to believe. What we have here are two groups - delusional, and those who take advantage of the delusional. And in some cases not outright delusional - just prone to believe without any evidence...these are folks who are easily scammed.

Some of these folks are not scamming anyone - they are telling the story they've been told, repeating "facts" they've been offered, and are revealing the activities of folks. Some of these folks would rather some of these activities not have been revealed.

At the very core, you have the scammers. Those are the ones who can't be believed. But in order to get to that core - you've got to accept that the ones surrounding that "core" are not scammers, they are simply trying to tell people the truth as they understand it and as they believe it to be.

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Postby uberarcanist » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:38 am

Well, here's a problem, Ryan. EVERYONE has agendas, even those who, correctly or incorrectly, claim to be exposing the agendas of others. Now, it's beyond serious dispute that the Serpo report was false and those who created it knew it was false, but I'm also interested in the reaction to it, even the reaction of its critics. Of particular interest to me is the creation of the "aviary" list. Although I totally agree that most, if not all, of those named on the list have no credibility, are we too quick to swallow the list and its associated claims because of the fallout from Serpo? That's moreso what I meant when I asked who we can believe.
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Postby cgreen » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:17 pm

Sad fact: The Aviary list was created by Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera over 20 years ago...and most of us didn't know we were members until 5 to 10 years later...and it was initially a joke they used to try and keep track of the people who were sources, or who they heard of. In my case, I got a "name" of Blue Jay because I was said to have a loud and raucus voice, Pelican because he had (Bill and Jamie thought) a big (physically big mouth, and OWL because he was wise.)

It hurts to read that most of us have no credibility. But, Freedom to say what one chooses is an important thing.

So much that is said is wrong, though. I read today (on a Flame-Wars Blog) that it is known I am "behind " SERPO and "Many other Scams over the years."

Not true, actually. I have never been part or accomplice of a single UFO scam, and have tried to expose the scammers. True, some of my "friends" have been involved, but I didn't know it until this past year. Truth. That says more about my gullibility than it does my credibility...in my personal opijnion.
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Postby uberarcanist » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:47 pm

Mr. Green, I'm more than willing to give you, along with everyone else on the aviary list, the benefit of a doubt as to your credibility. I'll admit that I've only skimmed the list twice, so my initial impression that the list was populated with hoaxsters may very well be wrong. I intend to review the list in detail, delving into the backgrounds to the best of my ability of those on it, as soon as I can find the time. In conclusion, I do want to reiterate that nobody should ever take anyone at face value just because they are attacking someone regarded as a hoaxer and therefore there's a good chance that the information represented by aviary list is partially or totally wrong, as I stated implicitly or explicitly in my previous post.
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Postby murnut » Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:02 pm

cgreen wrote:Sad fact: The Aviary list was created by Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera over 20 years ago...and most of us didn't know we were members until 5 to 10 years later...and it was initially a joke they used to try and keep track of the people who were sources, or who they heard of. In my case, I got a "name" of Blue Jay because I was said to have a loud and raucus voice, Pelican because he had (Bill and Jamie thought) a big (physically big mouth, and OWL because he was wise.)

It hurts to read that most of us have no credibility. But, Freedom to say what one chooses is an important thing.

So much that is said is wrong, though. I read today (on a Flame-Wars Blog) that it is known I am "behind " SERPO and "Many other Scams over the years."

Not true, actually. I have never been part or accomplice of a single UFO scam, and have tried to expose the scammers. True, some of my "friends" have been involved, but I didn't know it until this past year. Truth. That says more about my gullibility than it does my credibility...in my personal opijnion.



Dr Green...Thank-you for posting your views , it is much appreciated.
UFO scams on the internet seem to abound. The mainstream media treats the subject with little regard, although the subject of the recent press conference was covered fairly for the most part.
Most theories of the widespread disinfo campaign perpetrated upon the American people seem to focus on the coverup....what, who, why.
What? Cover stories for Black projects? Probably
Who? Who cares
Why? See black projects.
Do Black projects explain the totality of the phenomena?
I don't believe it does

While most agree we are being visited, there are such a wide range of fantasy/reality theories how does a rational man know what to believe?
Should a rational man ignore the phenomena all together?
You seem to be a rational man, I think.
You are not exactly ignoring the UFO question, are you?
Is it purely professional research wrt the psychological aspects on your part?

Could the wide range of fantasy/reality UFO/Alien myths be generated to lessen the emotional/panic impact of the disclosure event?
When some type of official semi-disclosure is made, most of the population simply wont believe due to the years of fantasy disinfo?

Most of the opinions of Serpo that I have read suggest the fantasy of the story.

Does your opinion differ from the consensus?

What might be the most overlooked part of the story, in your opinion?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am most interested in your thoughts.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:24 pm

cgreen wrote:Sad fact: The Aviary list was created by Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera over 20 years ago...and most of us didn't know we were members until 5 to 10 years later...and it was initially a joke they used to try and keep track of the people who were sources, or who they heard of. In my case, I got a "name" of Blue Jay because I was said to have a loud and raucus voice, Pelican because he had (Bill and Jamie thought) a big (physically big mouth, and OWL because he was wise.)


You, loud and raucus?? :)

It hurts to read that most of us have no credibility. But, Freedom to say what one chooses is an important thing.

So much that is said is wrong, though. I read today (on a Flame-Wars Blog) that it is known I am "behind " SERPO and "Many other Scams over the years."


It's the easiest (and laziest) path to follow. Too many researchers take their first important discovery, if lucky enough to have one, and pattern an entire far-reaching conspiracy around it, a single piece of evidence...failing to adhere to the important "evidence-based" protocol thereafter. I think, in part, it has to do with pride and ego, but in larger part it has to do with laziness. Researchers who lack the time to thoroughly research leads should refrain from drawing conclusions that implicate others in serious fraudulent activity.

Not true, actually. I have never been part or accomplice of a single UFO scam, and have tried to expose the scammers. True, some of my "friends" have been involved, but I didn't know it until this past year. Truth. That says more about my gullibility than it does my credibility...in my personal opijnion.


I agree 100% regarding gullibility vs. credibility - and I think if people were aware of your CV, your personal and public accomplishments, your artistic/creative talent, and your private beliefs, I think they would be a little more careful with insinuations.

btw...I'm not so much referring to anyone here, as I am to others elsewhere who've written some pretty nasty things about people they hardly know - and have failed to conduct proper research to back a single claim they make. And reading other people's conspiracy-theory books is not research.

The admission above by Dr. Green is important - he admits to initially buying into a story (from back in the the Moore/Shandera days) that I think he now, at least in part, believes is more Scam than anything else (if I understand correctly). Considering how long-running this scam has been, the admission above is significant. I hope people realize that.

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Postby cgreen » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:48 pm

I agree with everything you write. (Although it does make me squeamish responding seriously to Avatars named "Uberanarchist" and
"CartoonSyndicate" "Murnut"...because I am not bright enopugh to know what messages lie in the names to whom/what that I may be responding with meanings I am missing! But, that is my problem...I prefer dealing straight-up with real names and real people). But I refuse to deal with sites that use toilet humor and swear words. So, that leaves three.

That all said...the question : "What might be the most overlooked part of the story, in your opinion? " is a cool question...no one has ever asked me in such an elegant way, so it will be fun to answer. Thanks for the direct question.

Aside from the occasional Lawyer, ARG-developer, Construction-worker, or others who treat this as a subject beneath derision and for their own Recreational Joy...who we now know from time-to-time have faked emails to Bloggers, web-sites, and so on...for purely unadulterated and un-adult (sic) sophistry and self-agrandisement...pretending to be "Anonymous II" or "Paul-Also" or "Gene-II" or "Herb-of-the sick wife-IV" and suck us all in...here is what I think I find overlooked. {by the way...I am most guilty of overlooking this, I am not throwing stones at anyone but my own self and stupidity}:

The body of writing, in my opinion (which does include some first-order lexical-content analysis and software) is written by a Group. The Pass-Throughs we have blamed mostly, are only that. Only once in awhile have they put tortured grammar and spelling to "Releases." Much of the many hundreds of pages are from old materials...some 30 years old. Some is brand new, and contains contemporaneous references to events, and some biographical information that is current about some people. Once enough-in-awhile to make it clear there are some folks with current time on their hands to produce the (largely) garbage...with tantalizingly little dribs and drabs that some of us hope presage "Release" of a "Core Story." (The Core Story I favor, is a much attentuated one...so much so I am not even sure I have one, anymore.) With silly little examples of a book or paper or DVD for sale, and then not by people I personally think are "Behand" the "Hoax"...no one is making money. Not even enough to warrant a fraction of the time this is taking them to write the material, and coordinate it. In my personal opinion.

So...the "overlooked" pair of issues for me?

1) Motive (Government? Black Project? Hah! It feels all wrong to me)

2) Who (I reject it is from the folks with no day-jobs, the ones in tennis shoes in the kitchens with time so free, the lawyers working for Aerospace Companies...and on, and on, an on.)

In Short...I got no clue about One and Two...and I am going to buckle my Shoe and try and figure out these (to me, to me...I don't expect anyone to agree) what in the heck is going on. I am so confused I am REALLY confused!

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:17 pm

Hi Dr. Green,

cgreen wrote:1) Motive (Government? Black Project? Hah! It feels all wrong to me)


Yep...what I refer to as "Intention". Disregarding the substance of the story one sees this is nothing more than an information game. And the only thing that one can use to trump an information game is knowing the overarching intention for engaging in the game.

I am so confused I am REALLY confused!


And let us not forget that the creation of confusion is a most valid intention, especially when one is playing information games. In fact, I once did an operational analysis of intentional confusion and was able to convince myself (no big effort required) that a system function of "generate confusion" can be used to cover higher level intentions of an information game (lowers the signal to noise ratio, thus making it difficult to unerringly pick out the true signal). And I think this is precisely what is going on with all such "group-organized" information games that target the domain of UFOology. I think if more people considered that "it" (the target of the info game) is so NOT about UFOs they might do better in uncovering more of the hidden intentions.

But that's just me...
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Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:28 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:I think if more people considered that "it" (the target of the info game) is so NOT about UFOs they might do better in uncovering more of the hidden intentions.


Excellent point!

Also, If I may add a second item to that...if people would further strive to ignore the noise/drama that is so inherently a part of any such study...and focus on following only the meaningful and useful leads and patterns - I think they'd be much closer to extracting the truth Kit describes above....especially motive.

P.S. to Kit - I know what you mean about the user-names...it's one of the oddities of forums. But if you choose a decent forum where administrators are careful in monitoring that only users with valid email addresses can register, you're less likely to have the whole "sockpuppet" problem.

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Postby caryn » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:55 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: I think if more people considered that "it" (the target of the info game) is so NOT about UFOs they might do better in uncovering more of the hidden intentions.

But that's just me...
Ray


Spot on, IMHO.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:21 pm

To those who are familiar with the work of the great director Alfred Hitchcock... another way to explain it would be:

UFOs are nothing but "McGuffins" for the storytellers and hoaxsters.

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Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:56 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:UFOs are nothing but "McGuffins" for the storytellers and hoaxsters.


LOL....I like it.

And going along with the theme...using one of nightmare-creator Stephen King's terms....many of the characters that are part of this story are nothing more than bags of bones.

"The nose of a mob is its imagination. By this, at any time, it can be quietly led."
- Edgar Allan Poe


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Postby cgreen » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:44 pm

Thanks. All.

Ryan, I do know what you mean about the proclivity of folks to use clever Avatars and such-like, and that is why I decided to write in response to an otherwise great-sounding persons with the names "Anarchist" and "Cartoon" and "Nut" which I certainly am not.

I accept your statements, and trust the modicum (whch is enough, in my view) of review the RU site grants. However, I didn't have such a good time last week on another site, where I did also get asked a decent question...not even controversial, and I thought well-intentioned. So the person(s) [there were two. one a lawyer, by the way] suddenly attacked and referred to me as (I am not going to use the graphic, actual, scatological four-letter words, here)...as a biological piece of processed food, that s/he lumped in the category of needing to be flushed down a toilet. I kid you not...and the reason ? Beats me. No hint.

In any event...here is the next level of question I have on the motive and the who...and I surely do NOT expect an answer on a Public Web Site, but it is on my mind. Do any of you out there know who the members of the Group are? And if not, with all the past two years' plus one month of time analysing IP addresses, content, and sleuthing...why don't we know? We know some of the Pass-throughs...I don't mean those two guys, but who is doing the writing?

Here is the conundrum to me: if this is NOT a National effort, and NOT an ARG, and there is NOT a motive of Fame and Money, and the perpetrators are NOT of the Government, and the fake emails are really as trivial as they are said to be, which means "traceable" {although not by someone with my lack of IT Talents I assure you} ... who are they?

What really bothers me, is that is all the hypotheses above are, in fact, negated...we are...in fact...left with a National program attempting a controlled Release of partial truths...buried inside a morass of mis- and even dis-information to obsure and permit plausible deniability. I don't want to believe that for an instant...because with all my access and history it is too humbling to admit I do not know because I haven't been told. so why can't I negate the above hypotheses...and find out who the simpleton jerks are...?

In summary: This Hoax of Serpo "feels" to me to be too important to be explained by the simplistic facts of the jerks we know (or I know, anyway) who are the low-lifes that are involved.

There is one other option...but it too big to write about now: all of this is an Uncontrolled Artificial Reality (HEY! I made up a new Acronym! A UAR!) and there is NO Group...the Group is US...and thousands more who have created a new Reality comprised of a net of Memes, a skein of Delusions, a Fabric of strong but unreal Weft and Woof strung under a parallel Warp of reality. There is a lot of evidence for that, but it means there are no more bad guys and gals to be found...just sick ones. The UAR we have become part of is a new (less than 50 years old) and growingly complex Cult-like...(gasp!) Religion. Revelation is its grist, and Belief its meal. It has even become impossible to disentangle many facts from fiction, and we are left with faith. Indeed, were I to have any abduction and encounter experiences as many have...I would also likely eschew facts from Revelation. And this is from an Anglican Guy who actually believes in Revelation and Grace in another religious context...so I can't say I "know" the UAR I proclaim a possibility is any less "real."

And...to answer a question that was put to me (elsewhere...not on this site) last week in a denigrating way: "Why do you take the time to write about this if you are who you say you are?" Well, I am a practicing physican, and the bulk of my private AND hospital practice is forensic medicine that relates to criminal intentionality of persons who become delusional...from genetics or substance abuse, or both. I do fMRI on patients and also normal subjects who believe they are Experiencers, and who I am willing to admit are not sick. I see a trend that often seems as if people who get snared in this stuff get sick and delusional, and my overarching clinical question is: what came first==> the genes or the memes?
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Postby caryn » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:32 pm

Kit,

Have you ever played Chinese whispers?…including the human penchant for embroidering a yarn.

In less than a day, in a remote Scottish location, a seed of a tale (nothing to do with Ufos and ilk) swept through the community ending up back at the source, barely recognisable. It had been interwoven with threads of personal bias, intrigue, jest, want and, a little deliberate manipulation by those seizing the opportunity.

If it wasn’t for my conviction that there IS something of import re the ‘spooky mind stuff’ (my own little personal psychotic fantasia) – I would stake a claim to your 'other option' – but factoring in the opportunists.

C...
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Postby murnut » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:42 pm

Interesting theories Dr.Green. Thank-you for sharing. Although my "nickname" implies otherwise, I am as sane as anyone else. My wife might have a different opinion, but who cares. I am not anonymous at all. I am in fact a nobody end user, of the material supplied.

There are many wild theories perpetuated by the internet, the genie is out of the bottle and it is not going back in.
I have no desire to demonize you or anyone...some do take the material personally ...they feel slighted...and they lash out at whatever target suits their needs. In this regard, rightly or wrongly, targets have been painted on your back and many others. You and your known associates represent the face of disinfo to so many that have followed this saga. These memes do spin out of control and they do become UAR's you spoke of.

But this particular UAR orginated somewhere else and was dumped on the internet. Maybe someone wanted to shine a light on you and your known associates. Have you made enemies?
What other outcome was really expected?
Maybe the target was you.
Of course my comments only add to the UAR and for that I apologize.
But my hands are tied, bound by the reality of the material supplied. I am only fufilling the expectations of the stimuli provided.

In summary: This Hoax of Serpo "feels" to me to be too important to be explained by the simplistic facts of the jerks we know (or I know, anyway) who are the low-lifes that are involved.


Spiderman is a fictional story about ....well I am sure you know.
However, even though it is completely made up lies, there is a great truth that comes out of it . With great power comes great responsibility Even an uneducated nobody like me can recognize this. I feel it.

What truth of Serpo do you feel?
Other than an interesting Science Fiction read, I don't feel it.
There is nothing to me that screams truth, but that is not to say it is not there.

I am glad you did take the time to acknowledge us here, and I hope your insight will assist in a better undersatnding of such a confusing viral.
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