Bob Collins and Exempt from Disclosure

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:54 pm

Hi Kit,
Thanks for dropping by and sharing your thoughts.

The body of writing, in my opinion (which does include some first-order lexical-content analysis and software) is written by a Group. The Pass-Throughs we have blamed mostly, are only that. Only once in awhile have they put tortured grammar and spelling to "Releases." Much of the many hundreds of pages are from old materials...some 30 years old.


Absolutely. That is something I have brought up since the very start of my own involvement in this area of research at ATS when Serpo first surfaced. One thing I didn't realise at the time however, is exactly how old some of this material really is, much older even than the 30 years you quote above.

...with tantalizingly little dribs and drabs that some of us hope presage "Release" of a "Core Story." (The Core Story I favor, is a much attentuated one...so much so I am not even sure I have one, anymore.)


I used to think the "Core Story" was a message as simple as "ET exists and there is proof". Now I'm not so sure. The Core Story seems to differ depending on the angle being "pushed" and the person or group doing the pushing. A means to an end.

With silly little examples of a book or paper or DVD for sale, and then not by people I personally think are "Behand" the "Hoax"...no one is making money. Not even enough to warrant a fraction of the time this is taking them to write the material, and coordinate it. In my personal opinion.


I no longer think this is about books or DVD's for sale, nor any other kinds of merchandise based around the various stories and beliefs - although it can be a nice little earner for some. Your comment that no one is making any money is interesting. Maybe our report, once it is finally published, will convince you otherwise.

You further wrote:
In any event...here is the next level of question I have on the motive and the who...and I surely do NOT expect an answer on a Public Web Site, but it is on my mind. Do any of you out there know who the members of the Group are? And if not, with all the past two years' plus one month of time analysing IP addresses, content, and sleuthing...why don't we know? We know some of the Pass-throughs...I don't mean those two guys, but who is doing the writing?


That is something we will be addressing in our report. Man, I sound like a broken record! Sorry about that, but we really do have to make sure we have all of our facts right before going public with it.

Thanks for your patience.

Cheers,
Zep.... err Steve ;)
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Postby ryguy » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:27 am

Here is the conundrum to me: if this is NOT a National effort, and NOT an ARG, and there is NOT a motive of Fame and Money, and the perpetrators are NOT of the Government, and the fake emails are really as trivial as they are said to be, which means "traceable" {although not by someone with my lack of IT Talents I assure you} ... who are they?


Someone who has also publicly discussed, and at times publicly written about, the same exact topics that are being distributed in these releases. Another important clue to the identities are whether there is a direct, or even partially direct effect of these stories resulting in some intended reaction or effect. Cause - stories are distributed that attract semi-delusional believers. Effect - particular "type" of believers are monitored for, and approached if/when they appear.

What really bothers me, is that is all the hypotheses above are, in fact, negated...we are...in fact...left with a National program attempting a controlled Release of partial truths...buried inside a morass of mis- and even dis-information to obsure and permit plausible deniability. I don't want to believe that for an instant...because with all my access and history it is too humbling to admit I do not know because I haven't been told. so why can't I negate the above hypotheses...and find out who the simpleton jerks are...?


Not sure what the answer to that is...except maybe the same reason people with plenty of evidence against it - continue to believe in the existence of a secret committee called "MJ12"...one of the greatest fictional creations of the last 30 years - and one of the most impressive delusional infections as well.

Caryn's anecdote above is a great example of this.

In summary: This Hoax of Serpo "feels" to me to be too important to be explained by the simplistic facts of the jerks we know (or I know, anyway) who are the low-lifes that are involved.


Which aspects of it feel important? So far we see the same elements that started 30 years ago: genetic manipulation of humans, Christ being "planted" 2000 years ago, alien "energy device" and propulsion technology with the potential of being "reverse-engineered", etc, etc, ad-nauseum. Which of those do you find important....which are even new?

Of course, out of those are aspects that can "appear" important....that can "appear" to potentially save humanity from effects of global warming, of the over-consumption of energy and resources....those are issues that I would have to admit certain people see as very, very important.

There is one other option...but it too big to write about now: all of this is an Uncontrolled Artificial Reality (HEY! I made up a new Acronym! A UAR!) and there is NO Group...the Group is US...and thousands more who have created a new Reality comprised of a net of Memes, a skein of Delusions, a Fabric of strong but unreal Weft and Woof strung under a parallel Warp of reality.


I personally believe everything you've described as the "net of Memes" to be an accurate representation of what goes on in the world of UFOlogy, and in the discussion of just about every other paranormal field - because the lack of hard data, and the tendancy of people to jump to erroneous conclusion without enough data - results in the amplification and spread of those memes.

However the issue we deal with here, today, is much smaller and simpler than that.

We are dealing, here, with a particular story, from particular people...

Since the 1970's, these activities have certainly been interesting - but nothing that could be called "official" or even appearing professional. And obviously the members of this group are much older - as recently they did not fully understand the internet technology they were using to distribute the latest releases of 2005.

I'd love to write more, but the rest will be published soon enough.

Best,
-Ry
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:44 am

In my opinion the core story is that we made contact with beings that were not human. At first they appeared to be benevolent but later we discovered a dark side.
They claim to be the great builders of not only humans but also many if not all other so called ET's.
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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:07 am

Scarz, what I'm unclear on is whether or not you consider that "core story" to be true and why.
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Postby ScaRZ » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:09 pm

uberarcanist wrote:Scarz, what I'm unclear on is whether or not you consider that "core story" to be true and why.


That's my opinion on what I see the core story being. I've got no idea if what is being pushed our direction is true or false. These are just the main points that repeat time after time. I've never seen a UFO or Alien that I know of in my life.

I do think there are forces at work,but not what most believe them to be.
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Postby murnut » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:10 am

Having just finished reading EfD, which I thought was great, I am left with an interesting paradox.
It relies heavily on the source named Rick Doty.
Serpo apparently relies on Rck Doty as well.

How can one be true and the other fantasy?

You might say Serpo only passed through Doty's hands.

Still the paradox remains.

That being said I thought EfD was a fascinating read.
The backround of the Intel Agency's history and evolution as it may or may not relate to the core story was worth the price of the book alone.

Serpo seems to be a natural extension of EfD and I find it difficult to separate the two.

Am I wrong?
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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:41 am

murnut wrote:Serpo seems to be a natural extension of EfD and I find it difficult to separate the two.

Am I wrong?


You are absolutely right, but here's where I draw the distinction:

Serpo is a tale told directly by the con artists.

EfD is a tale told by one of the "believers". The Serpo releases will give you very, very few if any clues as to the activities and behaviors of those who've been working behind the scenes. EfD gives a great deal of clues, because the person who wrote it doesn't realize that some of the things he shares gives away identities, comments, activities, etc...

Most of Serpo is just an updated version of the same pattern that was released with MJ12/Aquarius, etc... EfD on the other hand tells more of the background.

Try this - skim through EfD again, as a person who knows that the story being told (MJ12, Alien bodies, crafts at WPAFB, etc...) are fabrications. Ignore those parts of the book that talk about fabrications...filter them out. What's left are that certain people had certain meetings on certain dates. What did they discuss? Why were they meeting...was it to talk about alien bodies in vats at Wright Patterson?

Here's one example - there's a part in the book that mentions several people who attended a meeting with Ernie Kellerstrass. One of those names is C.B. Scott Jones. What do you know about Mr. Jones? Why was he at the meeting? What about the other names of attendees - what were their motivations early on?

Those are the important facts in the book - not anything to do with aliens, UFO's or Serpo....IMHO.

-Ry
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Postby murnut » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:29 am

Thanks Ry 8)

I guess part of my dilemma comes from so many sources with conflict interpretations. I have no idea who is right and who is wrong.

Quoting Gary Bekkum from SSR

http://stargate007.blogspot.com/2007/11/serpo-and-origin-of-core-story.html

Friday, November 30, 2007
SERPO and the Origin of the "Core Story"

We are told that the "Core Story" behind tales of extraterrestrial intelligence, comes in several flavors, according to taste.

The first, presumably the original core story, was invented in a Denny's restaurant in San Jose, California, "on the fifteenth of July, 1986, immediately after new and veridical data had been received ..." from the director of a major national laboratory.

The second was appropriated by others and is familiar as the "Core Story" described in the book "Exempt From Disclosure," by Robert Collins, et al.

Comments about the second version suggest a very different tale from the "original" identified above.

One well-informed party described the second version of the "Core Story" as "Grounded in fantasy."


And then at the bottom of the article

According to leaked messages obtained by an associate, what took place at the meeting at CIA with USAF officials was described in detail in an email that was verified by someone present at the original meeting:

"He quoted what I said, what you did, and the circumstances of the meeting to convince me of who he was. He also told me the essence of the SERPO story was true."


There are sites I check everyday, and Gary's is one of them.
Gary's article of the 15th also seems to allude to a similar quandary
I am not a reporter, I am not an investigator, I rely on others, but it is hard when so much of it is conflicting. Somebody must have hit close to home with some aspect of either story to warrant the kind of disinfo being spewed. The question is which one, and why attract more attention?

Thanks for the tip about approaching EfD in that manner, will try that.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:05 pm

murnut wrote:There are sites I check everyday, and Gary's is one of them.
Gary's article of the 15th also seems to allude to a similar quandary
I am not a reporter, I am not an investigator, I rely on others, but it is hard when so much of it is conflicting. Somebody must have hit close to home with some aspect of either story to warrant the kind of disinfo being spewed. The question is which one, and why attract more attention?


I mean no disrespect to Gary - I visit his site daily as well, and his articles provide a mountain of insight.

However much of what he writes must be taken with a grain of salt. Some of his sources dissemble. For example - Caryn Anscomb mentioned what she was told the Core Story referred to in one of her articles - and she provided a different date for the Denny's meeting. No one has been told, outright and specifically, what was discussed at the Denny's meeting (however someone, I'm sure, may prove me wrong) - the only thing we've learned specifically is that it involved three influential people - Kit Green, Hal Puthoff, and Jacques Vallee. We only discovered last year that Vallee was the third.

What was discussed? One of those guys told us that it was simply what all three guys could agree represented a core truth that all of the evidence the three of them have seen confirms. All three of them had to agree for it to be considered "core". But the "core" they agreed upon is not the "core story" Bob Collins represented.

Try to get a straight answer on specifically what was discussed. I asked specifically what was discussed and was told the above - that it was the base "truth" all three could agree on. Other researchers who've met with one or two of these guys thinks (or has been told, I'm not sure which) it's that there was "real" alien contact.

The quote above - referring to the meeting and who said what, and who knew what....was a statement from memory of an event many years ago. The other person whom that email was sent to doesn't remember that same event in the same way. Is the version Gary published here the accurate one? Maybe it isn't accurate? Maybe it's incomplete in such a way as to protect a third party who has been implicated in impersonating real people as part of his hoax?

Gary provides good data, he provides real information from real conversations and exchanges - and that data is useful if you can determine the context. But too often it's impossible for the reader to know the context, so...as you point out, it generates confusion for readers who don't want to draw conclusions - but feel themselves led in that direction.

I can tell you don't allow yourself to be led, that you want to know the context, not just snippets. That's cool to see...

I hope that if time and resources allow, Steve and I will be able to help provide some more of the context (at least we'll do our very best to try), and hopefully that will help.

Thanks for the tip about approaching EfD in that manner, will try that.


Feel free to email if you what to chat about specific parts of EfD...it's hard to pluck out the gems, but they're in there. And maybe you'll pluck out some that we've overlooked as well!

-Ry
Last edited by ryguy on Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby murnut » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:44 pm

Before I go back to EfD, I am going to read Tim Good's latest book , Need to Know: UFOs, the Military and Intelligence,

A friend endorsed it, and I have just started it.

Thanks for all the insight.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:45 pm

ryguy wrote: No one has been told, outright and specifically, what was discussed at the Denny's meeting (however someone, I'm sure, may prove me wrong) - the only thing we've learned specifically is that it involved three influential people - Kit Green, Hal Puthoff, and Jacques Vallee. We only discovered last year that Vallee was the third.

What was discussed? One of those guys told us that it was simply what all three guys could agree represented a core truth that all of the evidence the three of them have seen confirms. All three of them had to agree for it to be considered "core". But the "core" they agreed upon is not the "core story" Bob Collins represented.


This is most interesting to me because of what (little) I know about Dr. Green and Mr. Vallee. I don't know enough of Dr. Puthoff's views with respect to what *I* think is the "core story". However, in the VERY few interactions I have had with Dr. Green and the few tidbits of Mr. Vallee that you pointed me to Ryan, I get the feeling that they are also looking at a phenomenon that is FAR beyond the mundane aspects of "physical UFOs from other worlds are visiting us".

Mr. Vallee clearly approaches issue from a systems engineering standpoint, and he is obviously focused on issues regarding information, uncertainty, networking, and where these recently-developed tools of ours are leading us. And while Dr. Green's work is in the realm of physiology I see an awful lot of his work focusing on the information aspects of genetics. If I were to guess, I would have to say that part of what they might believe to be the "Core Story" may have something to do with as-yet unknown aspects related to the functional capabilities (and operational purposes) related to human DNA... the ultimate carrier of information from ages long past...well before this current manifestation of humans started writing things down.

If were to go REALLY far out on a limb and expound further on MY "Core Story" as it relates to the above, it would begin with the understanding that information is used to close control loops. And that would mean DNA is a design artifact of someone/something wishing to close a loop. But where does this loop exist? If you ask me, it is a loop in time. And I am not talking about the measures of time that we can grasp in our mortal lifetimes. I am talking well beyond eons. I think there is a BIG BIG BIG "Core Story" out there which is breaking as we speak. And not to sound overly sensational (like many hoaxsters are wont to do), but I do honestly think it is going to totally change how we look at life.

Mankind went thru a phase, long ago, where we thought the earth was flat. Eratosthenes was the first to actually measure the circumference of the earth as means to put an end to that belief. We have since come to the full realization that space, itself, is curved by matter (thanks to Dr. Einstein). And only fairly recently have physicists begun to speak of "Closed Time-like Curves". Is it possible that our DNA is the information design artifact that is used to close a loop in time that is so vast we cannot see outside (beyond) it with our most powerful telescopes?

Such an answer could also provide potential answers with regard to how certain "prophets" (religious or otherwise) could "see the future" not to mention begin to shed light on such things as "Bible Codes" which seem to pinpoint people and events in the fabric of spacetime through nothing more than an algorithm based on mathematical recursion (loops!) of a long string of information. See a pattern here? 8)

No matter what the "Core Story" ends up being, I am quite satisfied that there will be a strong scientific (and specifically systemic) explanation for it all.

Ray
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Postby cgreen » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:35 pm

Ray has it right:

Dr. Vallee's approach was/is more Cybernetic and Information-Theory Intensive. See his many, many excellent publications...11 books, and many dozens of Peer-Reviewed Epidemiological Studies on Sightings, Geophysics, and more. Dr. Vallee's Doctorate is in Astrophysics, and his research is in AstroGeology and Information Theory. He holds one of the primary Patents on use of the Internet for increasing Human Knowlege through networking software, which he wrote at the Institute for the Future.

Dr. Puthoff has a Docorate in Physics, and his interest is in advanced Propulsion Systems: again...dozens of Peer-reviewed public articles. He is not so interested in Cybernetics, but is informed by it.

Kit's training is in Neurophysiology and Medicine...specialty is Forensic Medicine and Brain Sciences (yes, Neurogenetics is one passing area of interest). I don't understand most of what Dr. Puthoff says about Propulsion or Dr. Valleee says about Astrophysics.

We all agee that there is a Core Story. I was the one that originally reported on the 1986 Denny's...but jeez..we had dozens and dozens of conversations before and after...must be several hundred by now. I remember that one only because of a joke we made looking across the street and seeing a guy at 3 A.M. buying Coffee from the 7-11 (Hence, the 'oft quoted reference to the "Coffee-cup-7-11" folks who has BOTH day and night Jobs.) We bask in our mutual Confusion. We agree on small, tiny, overlapping Core Elements for which we have sufficient data to believe. That leaves about 99.999999999% of SERPO, however, going a-wanting. We relish each other's mutual exclusion of each other's areas of technical competence.

We all do agree that many people are being made sick by the emotional and psychophysiological pathologies of the all-too-real Viral Memes and Infections of the Mind...and constantly seek vaccinations and T-Cell immune boosters for ourselves and others we care about. (that includes the folks we correspond with and learn from...such as on this site.)


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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:58 pm

cgreen wrote:We agree on small, tiny, overlapping Core Elements for which we have sufficient data to believe. That leaves about 99.999999999% of SERPO, however, going a-wanting.

We all do agree that many people are being made sick by the emotional and psychophysiological pathologies of the all-too-real Viral Memes and Infections of the Mind...and constantly seek vaccinations and T-Cell immune boosters for ourselves and others we care about.


Kit...with all due respect, therein lies the problem. When you leave 0.0000000001% as a core element with "sufficient data to believe" - you inject a little virus into those hordes of folk who've not received proper vaccination. The next thing you know - you've got the likes of Bill Ryan screaming "I know, I know...the physics don't make sense and sure, the emails appear to come from Rick Doty...but GUYS...I believe 10% could be true!!!"

And then the virus runs rampant, and theories and speculations abound and the next thing you know you have "Bob Collins Core Story"...and "Bill Ryan's Core Story"....

When...truth is, all you had to do at the very beginning was lay out what the 0.0000000001% is that the three of you believe to be true - and the virus would be snuffed out permanently.

I guarantee, even after your post here, there will be folks out there suffering from the various pathologies, who will be saying - "omigod....look, Kit Green just posted that 0.000000001% COULD BE TRUE!!!!!"

Why not describe the specifics of those elements with sufficient data to believe, and put an end to the monster that this viral mutation has grown into?

(that includes the folks we correspond with and learn from...such as on this site.)


Great...now there's going to be a theory out there that we're letting the Aviary/MJ12 inject us with mysterious antidotes. Just kidding...thanks for making that statement. :)

-Ry
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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:07 pm

Hey don't be so harsh Ry. I also believe that 0.0000000001 of the Serpo story could be true.

Namely:
Sylvester McCoglin - Original Release wrote:I have never seen or read anything about the exchange program. I once heard a little bit of information from Linda Howe, but she didn't have much information.


Yep, sounds about right to me.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:14 pm

Hey...you maintained the appropriate number of 0's... cool. I worked really hard to make sure I got that right... :)

Oh...didn't mean the last to be harsh...it's just frustration from seeing how folks take valid comments, like Kit's above, and mutate them into something that it isn't in order to validate their own pet UFO/Alien theories.

-Ry
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