Kit Green and the Billion Dollar Email

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:30 pm

ryguy wrote:
ScaRZ wrote:As far as the Doty/Seinu connection it was hinted at in Ryans #9 article but I've yet to see anything concrete on the issue. I see it as only speculation or theory to this point.


Hey Scarz ...can you quote where I speculated that Doty sent out the Seinu info? The article is about the Ruben/Seinu connection, and is based on email IP information, not speculation. So I'm curious where I hinted at a Doty/Seinu connection? Or did you mean the Doty/Ruben connection, in which case you're absolutely correct - the connection there comes from Marilyn's attempts to "save" Serpo each time it was about to fall flat - trying to protect Doty by presenting herself as an independent IT expert - claiming the IP of the first anon email doesn't trace to him, and also trying to identify Tacitus for the team of 5. And, of course, the minor detail that the Rubens host Collin's website. lol...

-Ry


You are correct Ryan, you never said he sent it out but in my opinion you hinted he might be involved in some way. That's the way it came over to me, but maybe I was reading to much into it. I do that quite a bit......READ BETWEEN THE LINES.

Is there then a connection you haven't shared between Doty and Seinu?
I was under the impression you had something that was more than this Doty/ Ruben thing........OR was I reading too much into it again?
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:28 pm

Dankk I believe Ryguy and Zep will have to be the ones to answer your question about the breach of confidentiality between the OM Mods that are and that were.

I still believe there are things that Ryan and Zep haven't made public that they could. They have chosen in the past to reveal some things that the OM Mods told them or shared with them in confidence. I don't believe it has been a one way street either, because the OM Mods have done the same to Ryguy and Zep. I would say most of this probable has been more on a personal nature so to speak.

You've got to understand that the Mods struck up a friendship with each other and exchanged things of a personal nature among the group. A bond of trust was suppose to have taken place whether it be of information or personal.
At least that's what I think it's all about from following this soap opera from the beginning.
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Postby Hidden Hand » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:18 pm

Welcome to Orwellian Newspeak 101.. Sheee-it



Party B wanted to release information that Party A had revealed in confidentiality, but didn't because they felt bound by a previous promise.

Party A later publicly 'used' information Party B had given them in confidentiality.

After Party A had truly roasted Party B, Party B decided that, as Party A had violated the agreement, the agreement must no longer be in force.

Party B then publicly used information Party A had revealed, along with a ream of evidence having to do with that (compare and contrast that with what Party A did with Party B's info.)


Nobody except Party A and Party B know what was confidentially shared. Since Party B didn't scream "Violation of Confidentiality!" when Party A broke their agreement - Party A gets to scream it and make it seem like they were the first offended.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:56 pm

That's exactly right HH. Typically for Party A, they attempted to spin information they had and use it to detract from the real issues. This is the main reason why, for me personally, there can be no compromise with them. They are utterly without any morals whatsoever, whilst at the same time they attempt to convey the impression they have the moral high ground. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Example, During the time we were debunking the Law Degree myth, Ivo's pathetic attempt at countering Shawnna's logical comments resulted in a threat by him to contact her employers and inform them about what she was doing. Can you believe that? The law degree episode is central to establishing credibility, or lack thereof for the main character in this story but they, along with Collins and the rest of them, chose instead to ignore the obvious and personally attack Shawnna and RU.

Example2, I shared some personal info with Ivo during a Skype session. This information was then used to try and portray me as some kind of sex monster! Where are the counter-arguments to our expose? Where is the reasoned debate to show us the errors of ways? There aren't any, there are only personal attacks. This disgusting behaviour continued in various posts made at their forum.

Example3, Ryan's personal details were sent to Victor by Jakereason and then used in a public email in an attempt to put the frighteners on him. They have even tried to use Ry's personal religious beliefs against him FFS!

There are numerous other examples of such behaviour but frankly, I can't be bothered to list more of them, they make me seethe :evil:

Anyone who has follwed this from early on can see for themselves exactly who it is that like to twists facts and present a distorted picture of reality. They really need to take a long hard look in a mirror and ask themselves if what they are doing makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Cheers,
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Postby ufologist » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:36 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:That\'s exactly right HH.

Example, During the time we were debunking the Law Degree myth, Ivo's pathetic attempt at countering Shawnna's logical comments resulted in a threat by him to contact her employers and inform them about what she was doing. Can you believe that? The law degree episode is central to establishing credibility, or lack thereof for the main character in this story but they, along with Collins and the rest of them, chose instead to ignore the obvious and personally attack Shawnna and RU.


Cheers,
Zep


I seem to recall that Shawnna did exactly the same thing to Rick Doty, i.e. contacted his employer to try to get him fired. Bad form in either case. I submit that all private details ought to remain private in this pissing contest. These smears have gone way too far. The law degree crap was no more germain to this discussion than is Shawna's bankruptcy, Zep Tepi's marital life or Victor's arrest record. The escalating mud slinging adds nothing to the dialogue.

***MOD Edit*** - Corrected spelling of S-h-a-w-n-n-a
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:43 pm

Welcome to the forum ufologist.
You seem to suffer from not knowing the whole story in this case. Shawnna most definitely DID NOT contact Doty's employer to get him fired. Doty made several serious threats against Shawnna, do not forget that Doty is a law enforcement official. You do not go around making such threats, law official or not, without consequences arising. The fact that he is a serving police officer made his threats all the more disturbing.

Do you see the difference between what actually transpired and what you are asserting? I would hope so.

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Postby ryguy » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:47 pm

ufologist wrote:I seem to recall that Shawnna did exactly the same thing to Rick Doty, i.e. contacted his employer to try to get him fired. Bad form in either case. I submit that all private details ought to remain private in this pissing contest. These smears have gone way too far. The law degree crap was no more germain to this discussion than is Shawnna\'s bankruptcy, Zep Tepi\'s marital life or Victor\'s arrest record. The escalating mud slinging adds nothing to the dialogue.


Shawnna contacted his employer to stop his threats. Did you know that Doty was threatening to reveal on "public forums" Shawnna's "criminal records". These are criminal records that don't exist - he was threatening to fabricate them (his specialty is faking documents). Would you like me to forward those threats to you...no...I'm sure you couldn't be bothered with that, because you're too blinded by the rhetoric of your buddies.

The law degree was more than relevant since it was printed as fact in a book that also printed other alleged facts. If one fact is incorrect, it only stands to reason that others may be as well - and it also makes that fact "Rick's law degree" as more than relevant. Rick is offered as a major source of information for that book, and his presentation of passing the "bar exam" was an effort to add credibility to his claims - a credibility that did not exist. And you think that isn't relevant?

The only thing that adds nothing to the dialog, are those who accept the information within Exempt from Disclosure, without doing any sort of fact checking for themselves. Serpo was certainly only a small section, but it was used to generate "buzz" and nothing gets under my skin more than those who consider themselves "ufologists" who have failed to realize the game that has been played over the past several decades. Call yourself a ufologist if you wish - but unless you've done more than just help promote the MJ12 hoax as well as all of the other "information" Doty has faked through the years - you aren't much of a ufologist in my book.

-Ry

***MOD EDIT*** Corrected spelling in quote.
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Postby ufologist » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:38 pm

ryguy wrote:
ufologist wrote:I seem to recall that Shawnna did exactly the same thing to Rick Doty, i.e. contacted his employer to try to get him fired. Bad form in either case. I submit that all private details ought to remain private in this pissing contest. These smears have gone way too far. The law degree crap was no more germain to this discussion than is Shawnna\'s bankruptcy, Zep Tepi\'s marital life or Victor\'s arrest record. The escalating mud slinging adds nothing to the dialogue.


Shawnna contacted his employer to stop his threats. Did you know that Doty was threatening to reveal on "public forums" Shawnna's "criminal records". These are criminal records that don't exist - he was threatening to fabricate them (his specialty is faking documents). Would you like me to forward those threats to you...no...I'm sure you couldn't be bothered with that, because you're too blinded by the rhetoric of your buddies.



The law degree was more than relevant since it was printed as fact in a book that also printed other alleged facts. If one fact is incorrect, it only stands to reason that others may be as well - and it also makes that fact "Rick's law degree" as more than relevant. Rick is offered as a major source of information for that book, and his presentation of passing the "bar exam" was an effort to add credibility to his claims - a credibility that did not exist. And you think that isn't relevant?

The only thing that adds nothing to the dialog, are those who accept the information within Exempt from Disclosure, without doing any sort of fact checking for themselves. Serpo was certainly only a small section, but it was used to generate "buzz" and nothing gets under my skin more than those who consider themselves "ufologists" who have failed to realize the game that has been played over the past several decades. Call yourself a ufologist if you wish - but unless you've done more than just help promote the MJ12 hoax as well as all of the other "information" Doty has faked through the years - you aren't much of a ufologist in my book.

-Ry


If Shawnna is not a criminal (that the 'criminal records' do not exist) then those threats were moot, i.e. not threatening at all. What was the point of even engaging this guy?

The whole episode strikes me as vindictive and childish on both sides. Certainly we have bigger fish to fry.


I find the tenor of your response to me disturbing. I'm only here to engage in rational discussion of the subject of Ufology and simply pointed out that this dysfunctional contest detracts from the study. Damn, man- chill out! You react like a kicked pup.

"Call yourself a ufologist if you wish - but unless you've done more than just help promote the MJ12 hoax as well as all of the other "information" Doty has faked through the years - you aren't much of a ufologist in my book."

No- I haven't simply promoted 'the MJ12 'hoax'.'

I'm a serious student of Ufology. I 'promote' nothing. Starting with Donald Keyhoe and Frank Edwards, there is a plethora of evidence worth examining. The games between Shawnna and Doty are not. They do nothing to 'uncover reality.' I felt there was some promise in that regard at this site. Now I'm not so sure.

It seems that this site has devolved into a vituperative pissing contest. The mods here can do no wrong and the 'enemy' can do no right. Am I wrong? I have yet to see anyone here challenge the status quo. One mind? Borg.

***MOD edit*** - corrected spelling again.
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Postby dankk » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:05 pm

HH,

Very well put in your party A and party B explanation. I did not know that it was party A (OM) that was actually the first to breach the contract. That is IMO groundbreaking news! Is there any thread or text left of this that I could read to show exactly what it is that they did? I would love to have a gander at that fo sho!

A are 2 separate quote's 2 of my many PM's from Isaac Ho aka GW (bold added by myself)(initials added by myself):

He (BR) also dislikes Robert (RF)and RU forum gang like Ryguy and Zepeti, both were former mods, which left with our secrets. So I think Admin has many skeletons in his closet and RU gang has the thrump card. [snip] Take it easy on Robert (RF) unless he provokes you. He has the backing of Jeddyhi as well as Ryguy and Zeptepi (child molester) founders of the notorious RU Forum.


Notice how GW said "our secrets?" LOL he loves to make himself feel important and in the loop there. Sad really. Dont read into him saying "our" to much however. I have a sneaky suspicion about that and I will discuss that later. ~

I think that it is, like ScaRZ mentioned, probably secrets more of a personal nature than a disclosing malignment. The reason I even ask about "breaching trust" is because the OM forum makes it appear that the staff at RU (mainly RY and ZT i suppose) have broken this confidentiality several times and have put people in some danger. Like secrets of people, places, things, identities, etc. As a matter of fact, they constantly harp about that via thread and PM messages to new OM members.

Contrary to that, if I have this figured out from what I have learned, the OM forum is not telling the truth about this at all. And the secrets are nothing more than personal information about the staff at the OM forum. Of course the OM forum would rather have this appear bigger than it is by spinning it into 'secrets' and leaving it at that. Allowing for wondering minds to make assumptions and then having it become undisputed fact over time.

Regards,

Dankk

ps. I guess that the question of RD being somehow involved with Seinu will remain a mystery.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:09 pm

ufologist wrote:If Shawnna is not a criminal (that the 'criminal records' do not exist) then those threats were moot, i.e. not threatening at all. What was the point of even engaging this guy?


The threat was to fabricate such records - similar the AOL Virus he and Victor created in order to frame Tacitus. Surely you're aware of these methods - if you've been in this field any length of time, you're aware of the lengths hoaxers go to attack anyone who exposes them?

The whole episode strikes me as vindictive and childish on both sides. Certainly we have bigger fish to fry.


Certainly... As I've mentioned in the article, and elsewhere, my interest is no longer in Serpo, but in the current activities related to any disclosure either ongoing or planned... So I agree with you - I just disagree that the hoaxters in the field should be given any sort of respect or reverence, as you seem to be suggesting.

I find the tenor of your response to me disturbing. I'm only here to engage in rational discussion of the subject of Ufology and simply pointed out that this dysfunctional contest detracts from the study. Damn, man- chill out! You react like a kicked pup.


You are perceptive - we've had sockpuppets, threats, attacks, etc... and you sound very much like someone who has taken part in the most recent heated exchange between us and the group of non-critical thinkers who have been attempting to challenge article 9. I admit, I'm reacting immediately with a sword instead of a shield, because I've had it up to here with the nonsense rhetoric of people doing the hoaxing and those who lap it up like brainless dolts - unwilling to accept that this particular "disclosure" is a hoax, and move on to explore other possible activities that are very much going on at this very moment.

I'm a serious student of Ufology. I 'promote' nothing. Starting with Donald Keyhoe and Frank Edwards, there is a plethora of evidence worth examining. The games between Shawnna and Doty are not. They do nothing to 'uncover reality.' I felt there was some promise in that regard at this site. Now I'm not so sure.


Well if that's true...then I shall eat my piece of humble pie right now and apologize for assuming you are someone who you aren't. I agree with you that there is a plethora of evidence worth examining. I've actually personally come full circle, regarding the reality and possibility of disclosure... I believe it's possible, and that there are some who are trying to promote it, and some who are putting out mountains of disinfo to disrupt it.

However, while you say the games between Shawnna (2 n's by the way) and Doty are not relevant - you overlook the fact that Doty has peppered the field of ufology for decades with fake documents and "insider information". If you see the revelation of having no significance, it does make me wonder about what kind of ufologist you are. Maybe you concluded long ago that Doty wasn't relevant, in which case, I understand your position and accept it.

It seems that this site has devolved into a vituperative pissing contest. The mods here can do no wrong and the 'enemy' can do no right. Am I wrong? I have yet to see anyone here challenge the status quo. One mind? Borg.


Borg. Please tell me you're not cartoon...yet again. Is there a reason you choose to use a proxy? As far as any sort of pissing contest - if our articles are attacked, we will certainly defend the validity of them and the reseach that went into them. Your comments in your previous posts belittle about a year worth of research and effort, and you expect me to welcome you with open arms?

-Ry

***MOD EDIT*** - corrected spelling in quote - again.
Last edited by ryguy on Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dankk » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:12 pm

ufologist,

allow me to make this short and sweet.

Rick Doty IS important in this inivestigation. Why cant you see that? The point of this is to PROVE that RD is not a credible source regarding the serpo story, among many other discrepancies. In doing this, it has made a lot of people trying to promote this story and pass it off as real, very angry. That is why he made an empty threat and his boss got the call.

I highly suggest that you go and do some reading on this in at least the articles here before you reply again.

As for your tone with RY, I will leave that to him to answer as i am sure he has it well under control. I understood his temperment very well. People need to read before hopping in and looking foolish.

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Postby Hidden Hand » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:26 pm

Dankk - the "breach" that Luci talks about is Ry's publication of the Zillion Dollar email. You can read the all about it in the relevant article, and make up your own mind..
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Postby dankk » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:39 pm

HH,

Thanks for the info. I have read that article (all of them actually and they are all very very well done). I think it is extremely lame for the OM staff and some members make this "breach" look like something that it clearly is not.

Regards,

Dankk
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Postby Hidden Hand » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:51 pm

dankk wrote:The point of this is to PROVE that RD is not a credible source regarding the serpo story, among many other discrepancies.


dankk,

That - IMO - is not the point.

The point is to follow the evidence wherever it happens to go.


The constant blather that RU has made up their minds in advance and are trying to fit evidence to meet their preconceived beliefs... pfft!


I'm telling you - no one involved in the investigation here thinks they are omniscient, and I don't think there is anyone who hasn't changed their minds when confronted with evidence (except maybe Shawnna :P )

The Gazillion Dollar Email is a perfect demonstration. Luci's presentation of this was key in leading several to conclude that Kit Green was the "Serpo puppetmaster". Digging in, finding out what Kit Green *actually* told Luci in email - showed that there was more to the story than Luci's spin.

Frankly, AFAIC, if Luci wants to believe that Green was letting him in on secret knowledge, and that (key words) "If {...} or not" were part of a secret handshake nod and a wink - more power to him. Whatever.

It is still worth letting know what Kit Green actually said. Is reposting what Luci told his mod forum that Kit Green told him, and comparing it to what Kit Green actually sent him, a breach of confidentiality? Whoa!!
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Postby ufologist » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:01 pm

dankk wrote:ufologist,

allow me to make this short and sweet.

Rick Doty IS important in this inivestigation. Why cant you see that? The point of this is to PROVE that RD is not a credible source regarding the serpo story, among many other discrepancies. In doing this, it has made a lot of people trying to promote this story and pass it off as real, very angry. That is why he made an empty threat and his boss got the call.

I highly suggest that you go and do some reading on this in at least the articles here before you reply again.

As for your tone with RY, I will leave that to him to answer as i am sure he has it well under control. I understood his temperment very well. People need to read before hopping in and looking foolish.

Dankk


I agree with you that Doty is important to this investigation- but not for your reasons. My feeling is that Doty may be the very key to disclosure. I come to this conclusion after long and hard study of the field. Ry knows absolutely nothing about this field. Rely on him at your peril. I think it may be to your advantage to reconsider the Doty material. It is certainly the case that those few who are intimate with the details of disclosure have clouded his personna for their own reasons. Is he then simply a tool? Perhaps. As are Bill Ryan and MC and Victor Martinez.- and perhaps myself. This is a highly strange and complicated story. You haven't a clue. Please don't arrogate the true story to yourself. And lose the insipid avotar. It makes you look stupid.
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