Bill Ryan and Scientology

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Postby Shawnna » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:21 pm

L. Ron Hubbard wanted to have his organization designated a "Church" primarily to avoid US taxes.

There is a significant amount of information related to this - a good place to start would be here.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:31 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:There are many sites that argue both for and against Scientology as a religion.

For IPF to claim an attack on Scientolgy is religious persuction is quite frankly absurd.

Cheers,
Zep


On that we agree. No attack on any religion is persecution. Persecution in that case would be the advocation or doing of harm to adherents of a particular religion on the basis of their beliefs. It's a narrow line. You've not crossed it.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:34 pm

"Shawna" L. Ron Hubbard wanted to have his organization designated a "Church" primarily to avoid US taxes.

There is a significant amount of information related to this



The tax laws don't differentiate on the basis of the relative stupidity of a particular religion. Hell- even Catholics qualify. So?
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Postby kiwicocky » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:23 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:
"Shawna" L. Ron Hubbard wanted to have his organization designated a "Church" primarily to avoid US taxes.

There is a significant amount of information related to this



The tax laws don't differentiate on the basis of the relative stupidity of a particular religion. Hell- even Catholics qualify. So?



If he couldn't call it a 'church' or categorise it as a religion - his org was not tax-exempt. Must be a fine line between 'religion' and 'self-improvement' type groups.

I suppose other scientology spin-off's such as Landmark don't have similar tax exemptions?
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:52 am

Ist amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

That's all there is to it. The IRS has attempted to define 'religion' for tax purposes but they still must abide by the Bill of Rights. So regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with the precepts of any given religion that religion is granted protection under the 1st amendment. You can even believe that we're decendants of a bunch of aliens blown up in volcanoes or that your god was born of a virgin or any other absurdity. It's protected. Period.

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Re: Bill Ryan and Scientology

Postby kiwicocky » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:31 am

ryguy wrote:The following was sent from one of my favorite authors, Colin Bennett, to Jack Sarfatti:

----

On Jan 12, 2007, at 3:29 PM, COLIN BENNET wrote:

Hello all Savants,
Thank you George and Jack for this. I got roundly howled at by Pippin for suggesting that Ryan and Burische were frauds.



LOL, Pippin trying to protect his interests, go Colin!!!

Thanks Ry :)
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Postby I.P.Freely » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:55 am

Zep Tepi wrote:
I.P.Freely wrote:ah so I see religious persecution must be that new direction this forum how very original. I may not share the same beliefs as these people but one of my best friends mother does and I respect her right to believe as she wishes. And I am personally offended and angered by your continued demonizing this form of belief. I wont say more now till i can gain more control it would be nice if you stop where you are going with this


IPF, you quite clearly do not understand Scientology. I strongly recommend actually reading about a subject before you spout off and attack something that has been written here. Your post above is well out of order and I suggest you retain control very quickly before you post such nonsense again.

Strong hint: Scientology is not a religion... :roll:

Cheers,
Zep


I saw that I was becoming quickly angered and thats why I stopped And I don,t have anything against you personaly or anyone else here. II did not mean to start to attack you but my emotion got away from me for a moment forgive me . But that still does not change my opinion of what you are pursueing as wrong.

And why is it that because I don,t agree with you that I don,t understand? You ever think that maybe your the one that doesn,t understand. Because you never once asked me if I have had any experence with that group which I have . Have you?

But thats besides the point because I,m not defending Scientology in itself I Would do the same for anyones belief. And since you don,t know it you don,t get to determine was is or isn,t a religion but don,t feel bad niether do I. Hope you can understand I feel it very wrong to go after anyones beliefs and can not sit silent when I think that is happening but can refrain from being insulting and rude.
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Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:32 am

I.P.Freely wrote:But thats besides the point because I,m not defending Scientology in itself I Would do the same for anyones belief. And since you don,t know it you don,t get to determine was is or isn,t a religion but don,t feel bad niether do I. Hope you can understand I feel it very wrong to go after anyones beliefs and can not sit silent when I think that is happening but can refrain from being insulting and rude.


IPF - you don't need to apologize for feeling strongly about defending religion. I think it's cool that you feel that strongly about it. I agree that a person's beliefs shouldn't be the basis of any sort of personal attacks.

While I agree with you that Collin, in his comments in the email above, are negative toward Scientology - it is also true that much of the activities of Scientology are pervasive throughout society in ways we don't even realize. Anyone is free to hold their own beliefs - but shoving those beliefs down other's throats, disguising those beliefs as something else entirely, is a different story.

The point Collin was making in his email was that this effort of Scientology was to disguise their dogma and then infiltrate a school in an effort to push this dogma under the guise of something else entirely - not clearly defined or identified as Scientology - is just wrong.

-Ry
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:42 am

Hey Ry,

Freedom of religion and 1st amendment rights aside, it's difficult to understand how so many otherwise intelligent people could have fallen under the sway of this pernicious religious cult. What's the allure here? Got a theory?

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Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:51 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Hey Ry,

Freedom of religion and 1st amendment rights aside, it's difficult to understand how so many otherwise intelligent people could have fallen under the sway of this pernicious religious cult. What's the allure here? Got a theory?

cs


Wow...now there's a philosophical question that could turn into a graduate thesis. It's too late here to get into that one right now and really give it the attention it deserves, but it's a great topic for another day I think. The same has been said about Christians, Muslims, and most other religions - but there's something unique about Scientology, it has a history unlike most other religions. I'll have to sleep on that one Toon - but I encourage others to take the plunge....

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Postby I.P.Freely » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:59 am

Shawnna wrote:L. Ron Hubbard wanted to have his organization designated a "Church" primarily to avoid US taxes.

There is a significant amount of information related to this - a good place to start would be here.



Thanks No need yes you are correct as I have stated my wife helps a little old lady(95yrs) who just so happens to have been close friends with L.Ron Hubberd and was there at the very begining. In fact she will be moving into the otherside of the duplex where I live as she is becoming too frail to not have someone to help near by. I am very aware of the intent then and what it was ment to become which is not what it has become today.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:16 am

Yeah don,t get me wrong guys after 25 years of my friends mother showing me this and that and get me it to Scientology I Think its just as stupid as I ever had. The single fact that the only way to your advancement cost money tells me its BS.
But I can see some benifit also for some people. Mainly sheep people but its their call and should be respected thats all.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:20 am

ryguy wrote:
I.P.Freely wrote:But thats besides the point because I,m not defending Scientology in itself I Would do the same for anyones belief. And since you don,t know it you don,t get to determine was is or isn,t a religion but don,t feel bad niether do I. Hope you can understand I feel it very wrong to go after anyones beliefs and can not sit silent when I think that is happening but can refrain from being insulting and rude.


IPF - you don't need to apologize for feeling strongly about defending religion. I think it's cool that you feel that strongly about it. I agree that a person's beliefs shouldn't be the basis of any sort of personal attacks.

While I agree with you that Collin, in his comments in the email above, are negative toward Scientology - it is also true that much of the activities of Scientology are pervasive throughout society in ways we don't even realize. Anyone is free to hold their own beliefs - but shoving those beliefs down other's throats, disguising those beliefs as something else entirely, is a different story.

The point Collin was making in his email was that this effort of Scientology was to disguise their dogma and then infiltrate a school in an effort to push this dogma under the guise of something else entirely - not clearly defined or identified as Scientology - is just wrong.

-Ry


I agree is not right just as when some christian relief groups are wrong when they do it
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Postby robertfenix » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:59 pm

Scientology is not a religon.

It is the use of "technology" aka Psychotherapy, which the church refers to as "auditing" in an effort to confuse the subjects conscience mind into believing sub-conscience "ideas" are firmly rooted in reality.

Through the clever use of applied Psychotherapy they are able to bring about a semi hypnotic state in the subject where the rational, critical thinking mind is "re-wired" to the sub-conscience node. The conscience state then is "re-wired" to allow sub-conscience hypnotic suggestion to have equal power over the subject during normal daily activities.

This resulting state makes the subject fully accepting in the doctorine of the church and unable to acknowledge deceit by their very own handlers into the true motives of the "church".

The promise that higher states of awarness will be unlocked through constant "re-education" and application of "systems and audits". They are told the human mind has been corrupted by a foreign body and only through the use of audits can you break the control cycle and become a true human. The desire to fullfill ones God giving destiny un-fettered by an "external" control opens the subject for higher forms of manipulation. Even missing that in fact if it were even true about needing to purge the "alien" manifestation in the human soul, that they can not see they are replacing one subjectcation by another ie " the church".

If there is any one real truth it would be Jesus had said do not worship in a religion, for the church is nothing. Only I AM, is the path to salvation. That is all you need. There are no rules, no guidelines, no books, no systems, no buildings, no symbols, no teachings other then HE has given everything for you so that you may seek HIM. And understand that you are his children.

Scientology will not bring you closer to GOD or even to closer understanding of what GOD is. They only want to have power and your money, IMO Scientology is a tool to deceive you from the truth, it was started by greed and has manifested itself into something much more powerful with hopes of corrupting as many souls as possible.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:07 am

robertfenix wrote:Scientology is not a religon.


Like I said above none of us has the authority or right to decide what is and what isn,t a religion. And its wrong to attempt to. There is no one path to follow
no one destination.

It is the use of "technology" aka Psychotherapy, which the church refers to as "auditing" in an effort to confuse the subjects conscience mind into believing sub-conscience "ideas" are firmly rooted in reality.

Through the clever use of applied Psychotherapy they are able to bring about a semi hypnotic state in the subject where the rational, critical thinking mind is "re-wired" to the sub-conscience node. The conscience state then is "re-wired" to allow sub-conscience hypnotic suggestion to have equal power over the subject during normal daily activities.

This resulting state makes the subject fully accepting in the doctorine of the church and unable to acknowledge deceit by their very own handlers into the true motives of the "church".

The promise that higher states of awarness will be unlocked through constant "re-education" and application of "systems and audits". They are told the human mind has been corrupted by a foreign body and only through the use of audits can you break the control cycle and become a true human. The desire to fullfill ones God giving destiny un-fettered by an "external" control opens the subject for higher forms of manipulation. Even missing that in fact if it were even true about needing to purge the "alien" manifestation in the human soul, that they can not see they are replacing one subjectcation by another ie " the church".


And you say this because you have freinds or family in that organization. Youv,e spent time in their homes known them for years? I have and tell you you are wrong.
[
If there is any one real truth it would be Jesus had said do not worship in a religion, for the church is nothing. Only I AM, is the path to salvation. That is all you need. There are no rules, no guidelines, no books, no systems, no buildings, no symbols, no teachings other then HE has given everything for you so that you may seek HIM. And understand that you are his children.


This may be your truth and if you ask me a very good one. Yet it is not everyones truth. We all must find our own truths no one gets to pick for us.

Scientology will not bring you closer to GOD or even to closer understanding of what GOD is.


While I believe you may be right I would never be so arrogant to believe thats a fact there is just no way to know

They only want to have power and your money, IMO Scientology is a tool to deceive you from the truth, it was started by greed and has manifested itself into something much more powerful with hopes of corrupting as many souls as possible.



Since I personally know someone who was there in the begining I know you happen to be misinformed here. In the begining money was not its main focus other then avoiding taxes. But then it was infiltrated by individuals bent on enriching themselves. They worked themselves into positions of power and thats why you have what it is today. The true intent was to help but was corrupted. I know no of no organized religion today that does not share the same thing in some degree.

I think if we all just worried about our own souls and not others this world would be a much nicer place
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