Revealing Tacitus

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:55 pm

Yeah, IP. On the other hand, that insipid site of yours- OM- has now banned me even to the extent that I can't even sign on it as a visitor!!
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Am I such a big threat to them? At least here at RU we can both post our ideas. Your 'miss' (nurse Ratched, that is) is acknowledged on both sites to be a mendacious, evil scumbag and is yet now welcomed at OM by Jakereason. Stockholm syndrome, I suppose. (She and her fat sow girlfriend, Xenu, have acknowledged owning the serpo.info website, by the way.) Choose your poison wisely.

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Postby I.P.Freely » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:23 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Yeah, IP. On the other hand, that insipid site of yours- OM- [size=18][color=red] has now banned me even to the extent that I can't even sign on it as a visitor!!


Its not my site anymore then this is . Here is my site
[url]martellglassdesigns.com[/url]

feel free to visit it, its not very good though I need help. As far as your banning I have nothing to do with it. But why would you even go there in the first place seems dumb to go somewhere you don,t like. Do you watch tv programs you find annoying too?
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:47 am

Wow.

Oh, the tangled webs we weave…

All this infighting and ruined friendships over a bad pulp science fiction story that some people are actually gullible enough to believe could be true?

It's time I found another hobby...

What a colossal waste of time and energy.

[nice sting operation though]

And for the record Steve I know it’s none of my business and I have no idea what all went on between you two but I still think you owe Shawnna an apology for questioning her “research methods” in regards to her recent attempts to expose the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the management behind ATS.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you all can find a way to put aside your differences in a productive way and get back to what’s important… searching for the answers.

I’m out of here…

Later,

Tom
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Postby Max » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:51 pm

Access Denied wrote:Wow.

Oh, the tangled webs we weave…

All this infighting and ruined friendships over a bad pulp science fiction story that some people are actually gullible enough to believe could be true?

It's time I found another hobby...

What a colossal waste of time and energy.

[


I didn't think the day would come, but on this at least, I partially agree with AD.

While intelligence agencies sanctioned by, and working for, their nations routinely use methods involving deceit, deception, obfuscation and outright fabrications in the performance of their duties, there is a vast difference between them and the private sector taking it upon itself to copy such behavior.

I don't think I need to explain the differences here, but they are vast. I also don't think I need to go into the amount of oversight such behavior is normally exposed to.

And even then, most people find such behavior repugnant and distasteful. While recognizing that such methods may be necessary in defense of their nation, the adults in charge are usually not happy about it. It is not a matter of playing games and having a good time.

To try to justify deceit, deception and fabrication by saying the end justifies the means or to say that others have been engaging in it for a long time only lessens and diminishes those involved.

I am very disappointed.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:02 pm

I get the impression that no one minds when these people do it to us, yet when the hoaxers have the tables turned on them it's another matter?

Sylverster McCoglin? Fake
Paul McGovern? Fake
Herb Milton? Fake
Tamara L? Fake
Gene L? Fake
All of the other names used in disseminating this story? Fake

Yes, Tacitus was also a creation, but what TM did achieve was to highlight the fact that none of this was coming from official sources as highlighted further above.

I accept that some people may not like the method used, but it was simply a case of fighting fire with fire to show what was really going on behind the scenes. None of the other methods used throughout the years have ever worked and the intrigue and mystery have continuously lingered. No more mystery here.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:07 pm

but what TM did achieve was to highlight the fact that none of this was coming from official sources as highlighted further above.


the jury is still out on that one. who knows what was really behind it?
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:39 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:I get the impression that no one minds when these people do it to us, yet when the hoaxers have the tables turned on them it's another matter?

(snip)

Yes, Tacitus was also a creation, but what TM did achieve was to highlight the fact that none of this was coming from official sources as highlighted further above.

I accept that some people may not like the method used, but it was simply a case of fighting fire with fire to show what was really going on behind the scenes. None of the other methods used throughout the years have ever worked and the intrigue and mystery have continuously lingered. No more mystery here.


To all those who think what Zep, Ry, and others did was so terrible, let's not forget another major distinction: Now that the TM operation is over, they are COMING CLEAN that it was, in fact, an information operation. The data is being laid out, and they are copping to their operational means. But what about the SERPOjerks? Not ONLY are they NOT admitting that their entire SERPO story was just that, a story, but they are also maintaining a stalwart stance that "it could still be true." But of course that is to be expected by the types of personalities behind these types of operations.

Boo Hoo.... those "nasty" RU guys pulled a fast one on the SERPOjerks. Cry me a river. IMO what people should be scrutinizing is the motivation behind the SERPOjerks now that their hoax has been opened-up, if even a little.

Victor Martinez has a criminal past, and he is clearly acting as a propagandist who has no interest (perhaps no ability) to critically analyze any data he is asked to "put out there." And it chaps my ass when snake oil salesmen use that line to justify their infopollution: "I was not judging the information, I just thought it was best to put the information out there." I guess that is the modern-day justification for spreading gossip.

P-R-O-P-A-G-A-N-D-A-!

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:25 pm

Victor Martinez has a criminal past, and he is clearly acting as a propagandist


this comment is not worthy of further comment- except to the extent that it is hurtful.

'If you don't have a criminal past, you have no past.' Too Numerous to Name, 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:35 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:
Victor Martinez has a criminal past, and he is clearly acting as a propagandist


this comment is not worthy of further comment- except to the extent that it is hurtful.


And would you also agree it is hurtful (indeed criminal) if you found out that this same Victor Martinez was threatening someone we know? If one does not think fraud is hurtful, then certainly one would have to agree that threats certainly are.

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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:06 am

Zep just so you know how I feel about this it is absolutely is wrong if Sylverster McCoglin, Paul McGovern, Herb Milton, Tamara L, Gene L or ANYONE ELSE spins tales and deceives people without a doubt. There is not an excuse of well they did it first unless you wish be put in the same class as your foe. And thats find by me I could care less I just don,t like how I was lied to how I was deceived when I have done none of those things. How is it justified to treat us who have done nothing this way.

And Ray what are you babbling about no one ever came clean on this they got outed by Shawnna I doubt they would have ever told. I sure the hell wouldn,t if I was them.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:42 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
cartoonsyndicate wrote:
Victor Martinez has a criminal past, and he is clearly acting as a propagandist


this comment is not worthy of further comment- except to the extent that it is hurtful.


And would you also agree it is hurtful (indeed criminal) if you found out that this same Victor Martinez was threatening someone we know? If one does not think fraud is hurtful, then certainly one would have to agree that threats certainly are.

Ray


Hi Ray.

I am not aware that Victor is threatening anyone. That he is a 'propagandist', who can deny? He is a 'true believer' in the Serpo saga and propaganda comes naturally for true believers. I suppose it is our chosen mission here to separate the dross of 'true belief' from truth in general. The method most properly used in such a mission is logical argument rather than personal destruction. My feeling is this: That Victor is a 'propagandist' may be germane to the discussion but his 'criminal past' is irrelevant. As an aeronautical engineer I'm sure that you've made such a compromise. You've undoubtedly accepted the contributions of the Paperclipians to the field of aeronautics while bracketing their Nazi pasts.

Now my entire argument falls apart if it had been shown that VM was simply creating a 'fraud' as opposed to promoting a theory in which he believed. That is a point upon which we diverge. I have seen no convincing evidence that his intent was to commit fraud in regards to Serpo. I think he really believes the story and his intent has been to convince others to share this belief. While others- such as Rick Doty and Bob Collins- may be fraudsters, Victor and Bill Ryan, to my mind, were simply a useful idiots in this affair.

Best,

Kim
Last edited by cartoonsyndicate on Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:42 pm

IPF,

I.P.Freely wrote:And Ray what are you babbling about no one ever came clean on this they got outed by Shawnna I doubt they would have ever told. I sure the hell wouldn,t if I was them.


With all due respect, I do not think you are looking deep enough to understand what I am saying. The REALITY is that TWO sets of people were "outed" here, the first being the SERPOnuts, and THEN the folks here at RU for their operations. My point is to now look at the behavior of both groups that were "outed". One is acting responsibly as a result of their "outing", but the other is just continuing on with their hoax.

I am sick of people on the internet dreaming up BS as a means to achieve "fame" and at the same time taking advantage of other people who so desperately want to believe. I applaud the work of Ryan and Zep in this regard, and when you are dealing with people who have shown they will use deceit to keep their machine going, how else are you supposed to crack their operation?

We need to face it because it has been true for a long time: Information can be(and has been) used as a weapon. People who put out crap like SERPO without accepting responsibility for it being a big, fat hoax are no less responsible for passing on an infection than a person who does not know they have AIDS having unprotected sex with a bunch of people and infecting them. The only difference is the medium of infection.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:09 pm

The only difference is the medium of infection.


please... no-one has ever died as a result of serpo infection. hahahaha

while one is e.n.t.e.r.t.a.i.n.m.e.n.t, the other is

d.e.a.t.h

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Postby I.P.Freely » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:55 am

Ray or anyone else for that matter could you please list the names of all those Injured by the serpo story and how much harm was inflicted on them. I hear the word criminal being used but I,m aware of any law being broken. I what to know what harm has been done.

I asked this question twice before in the past with no answer. Can anyone please with the exception of GW name just one person who believes serpo to be 100% true.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:30 pm

This where 'high minded' deception leads:

(From The Telegraph, UK Feb. 19, 2004)

Ahmad Chalabi and his London-based exile group, the Iraqi National Congress, for years provided a conduit for Iraqi defectors who were debriefed by US intelligence agents. But many American officials now blame Mr Chalabi for providing intelligence that turned out to be false or wild exaggerations about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

Ahmad Chalabi: 'we've been entirely successful'

Mr Chalabi, by far the most effective anti-Saddam lobbyist in Washington, shrugged off charges that he had deliberately misled US intelligence. "We are heroes in error," he told the Telegraph in Baghdad.

"As far as we're concerned we've been entirely successful. That tyrant Saddam is gone and the Americans are in Baghdad. What was said before is not important. The Bush administration is looking for a scapegoat. We're ready to fall on our swords if he wants."

(Emphasis mine.)

Heroes in error, indeed...

Lest you think that comparing the Shawwna deception and Chalabi deception is a stretch, please read this about the father of neo-con deception philosophy.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/

Is this indicative of the new Zeitgeist of Deception?

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