Revealing Tacitus

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:41 pm

IPF,
I.P.Freely wrote:Ray or anyone else for that matter could you please list the names of all those Injured by the serpo story and how much harm was inflicted on them. I hear the word criminal being used but I,m aware of any law being broken. I what to know what harm has been done.

I asked this question twice before in the past with no answer. Can anyone please with the exception of GW name just one person who believes serpo to be 100% true.


The reason you received no answer is because this philosphy is tantamount to "hear no evil, see no evil". What you seem to be implying is that if I cannot name people who were harmed, there must not have been any. Shame on you. Let me turn this on its head with a current event:

Could you please list the names of all those injured by the "outing" of Valerie Plame as a CIA agent?

I am not even going to address CS' moral point about deception, because I tend to agree with it, but at the same time I understand that deception is sometimes necessary to prevent adversaries from outmaneuvering you.

The point I was trying to make is (and I again point out that CS again used the tactic of taking words out of context): Information CAN be dangerous, especially if it is not validated information. Those who try to deflect criticism for playing their information games by saying "I was just putting the information out there" refuse to accept any responsibility for that information, and yet they willingly become agents of promulgation. I pointed this out to Mr. Bill Ryan when the Sarfatti/Collins plagiarism fray was in full-swing, and he has yet to respond. I pointed out something the military has known for a long time: The concepts of Responsibility, Accountability, and Authority (RAA) all travel together as a team. Mr. Ryan has tried to claim he accepts "responsibility" for promulgating his information, but tries to eschew any "accountability" for what may come about as a result of that information being wrong and perhaps even damaging to some. Perhaps we could just forgive all of Hitler's propaganda ministers because they were just "putting the information out there"? There is a reason journalists are supposed to uphold integrity of their information!

It is well known that the internet is a medium for freely promulgating "viral memes". What I am suggesting is that people adopt strict RAA policies when it comes to information they have come upon, because NO ONE can EVER assess the potential for it to damage other people especially if they do not know its veracity. I say this because I guarantee you that if we don't "police" ourselves in this manner, there is going to come a day when some government somewhere is going to do it for us.

Freedom of speech does not come devoid of RAA.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:06 pm

This where 'high minded' deception leads:

(From The Telegraph, UK Feb. 19, 2004)

Quote:

Ahmad Chalabi and his London-based exile group, the Iraqi National Congress, for years provided a conduit for Iraqi defectors who were debriefed by US intelligence agents. But many American officials now blame Mr Chalabi for providing intelligence that turned out to be false or wild exaggerations about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

Ahmad Chalabi: 'we've been entirely successful'

Mr Chalabi, by far the most effective anti-Saddam lobbyist in Washington,
shrugged off charges that he had deliberately misled US intelligence. "We are heroes in error," he told the Telegraph in Baghdad.

"As far as we're concerned we've been entirely successful. That tyrant Saddam is gone and the Americans are in Baghdad. What was said before is not important. The Bush administration is looking for a scapegoat. We're ready to fall on our swords if he wants."

(Emphasis mine.)

Heroes in error, indeed...

Lest you think that comparing the Shawwna deception and Chalabi deception is a stretch, please read this about the father of neo-con deception philosophy.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/

Is this indicative of the new Zeitgeist of Deception?

cs

deception is sometimes necessary to prevent adversaries from outmaneuvering you.
says Ray

Freedom of speech does not come devoid of RAA.
says Ray

Bull$hit. " Freedom of speech is absolute," says cs
Last edited by cartoonsyndicate on Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:22 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote: b.s.. Freedom of speech is absolute. cs


Not according to the laws of our republic, oh learned one. Plenty of precedent. And all you need to do is try yelling "fire!" in a crowded movie theater. If anyone dies in the scramble to get out, you can bet your bippy you will find yourself charged with murder for your "free speech".

If you think free speech is such an absolute, then please explain to me how no one should be held accountable for the outcome of their free speech.

You live in an idealistic world, my friend.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:26 pm

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



or abridging the freedom of speech,


FIRE!!!!!!!
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Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:31 pm

I.P.Freely wrote:Ray or anyone else for that matter could you please list the names of all those Injured by the serpo story and how much harm was inflicted on them.


Well IPF, according to one particular doctor who most around here would be familiar with, a person who suffers from delusional thoughts can be medically affected by having those delusions reinforced through being subjected to stories such as Serpo and the like.

As for your glib request for names, I think Ray might have already answered that.... :roll:

I hear the word criminal being used but I,m aware of any law being broken. I what to know what harm has been done.


I take it then you are not a member of Victor's list? You make it sound like just because you aren't aware of any laws being broken that none have. Wrong.
I'm not referring to certain accusations being levied against us either. I've said it before but it is applicable in this instance too, people should really try and verify information before spouting off libellous crap in public.

I asked this question twice before in the past with no answer. Can anyone please with the exception of GW name just one person who believes serpo to be 100% true.


Just one? How about Brendan Burton of OM? Why don't you read his recent posts on the subject, it's quite enlightening to see him spin so many 180's in such a short space of time.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:48 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



or abridging the freedom of speech,


FIRE!!!!!!!


You are a master of addressing anything other than the point I am making, aren't you? I am well aware of the first amendment... but you have yet to prove that the exercise of freedom of speech is "absolute" as you say, and more importantly devoid of Responsibility, Accountability, and Authority. Or should I just start spouting off a bunch of rumors of you and that sheep you've had your eyes on? :wink:

Care to address my point? Or is this nothing more than your playground of ego?
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:59 pm

This theatre is crowded, no? So I hereby shout this: FIRE!!!!!!

And so? You gonna turn me in? Absolutely? Who shall make that law abridging freedom of speech? Dumbya and his factotum, Alberto?

Me and the ghost of Sam Adams sharing a cell at Gitmo. And the sheep? Forget it. We prefer goats. Go figure.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:47 pm

Toon, You could have used an analogy that was more relevant to the actual events, namely that of a police "sting" operation.

From Wikipedia:
a sting operation is an operation designed to catch a person committing a crime by means of deception. A typical sting will have a law-enforcement officer or cooperative member of the public play a role as criminal partner or potential victim and go along with a suspect's actions to gather evidence of the suspect's wrongdoing


Much more relevant than your example of incorrect intel being used to achieve a goal, IMHO.

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Postby ryguy » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:36 am

PERFECT analogy Zep. Sting operation indeed.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:29 am

Right. Sting it was. I got carried away by current events. But did it bleed over the line into entrapment?
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Postby Max » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:54 am

A sting operation conducted by law enforcement, since that is what you are comparing it to, does not allow for actual violations of law, morality or to some extent ethical behavior. An undercover sting has to have probable cause and an impartial judge's approval to tap phones, open mail, etc. An undercover cop cannot actually steal money from a bank. An undercover cop cannot let a prostitute fondle him. There are limits and there are rules and the people conducting the sting are expected to take the high road. That earns respect and credibility.

What juror is going to trust the testimony of an undercover operative that is known to commit the same fraudulent acts as the accused on trial. Why is it so hard to understand that?
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Postby I.P.Freely » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:28 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:IPF,

The reason you received no answer is because this philosphy is tantamount to "hear no evil, see no evil". What you seem to be implying is that if I cannot name people who were harmed, there must not have been any. Shame on you. Let me turn this on its head with a current event:

Could you please list the names of all those injured by the "outing" of Valerie Plame as a CIA agent?



Even though this is a completely different subject this is just to easy to pass up. Lets see now considering Mrs. Plame was a involved in gathering intelligence on Irans nuclear program. And we now have no way to gather that info as they advance towards building warheads. I for one believe this is dangerous for the US, its citizens, and allies.
Oh and though we will never know It seems likely that any Iranians who were associated with her are dead, but this is just changing the subject and bears no comparision to what has happened here. In my opinion all that RU leadership needs to suffer is realizing they were wrong and acknowledge they made a mistake thats all. As far as harm goes though Its kind of a stretch to find any real harm on either side of the fence.

I am not even going to address CS' moral point about deception, because I tend to agree with it, but at the same time I understand that deception is sometimes necessary to prevent adversaries from outmaneuvering you.


Yeah but don,t you think these kind of things are better left to professionals to do

The point I was trying to make is (and I again point out that CS again used the tactic of taking words out of context): Information CAN be dangerous, especially if it is not validated information. Those who try to deflect criticism for playing their information games by saying "I was just putting the information out there" refuse to accept any responsibility for that information, and yet they willingly become agents of promulgation. I pointed this out to Mr. Bill Ryan when the Sarfatti/Collins plagiarism fray was in full-swing, and he has yet to respond. I pointed out something the military has known for a long time: The concepts of Responsibility, Accountability, and Authority (RAA) all travel together as a team. Mr. Ryan has tried to claim he accepts "responsibility" for promulgating his information, but tries to eschew any "accountability" for what may come about as a result of that information being wrong and perhaps even damaging to some. Perhaps we could just forgive all of Hitler's propaganda ministers because they were just "putting the information out there"? There is a reason journalists are supposed to uphold integrity of their information!


Your comparison are so far apart it just does not fly they are nothing alike

It is well known that the internet is a medium for freely promulgating "viral memes". What I am suggesting is that people adopt strict RAA policies when it comes to information they have come upon, because NO ONE can EVER assess the potential for it to damage other people especially if they do not know its veracity. I say this because I guarantee you that if we don't "police" ourselves in this manner, there is going to come a day when some government somewhere is going to do it for us.

Freedom of speech does not come devoid of RAA.
Ray


Well don,t people bear some responsbility for the stupid things they believe. In some ways I think we all are stupid about something and harbor some stupid belief but we are not talking about heavens gate stupidity here not even close. If that were the case then just maybe the means would have been justified but in this case its not. If serpo was true or a hoax changes my life not. I still have rent to pay and a lawn to mow tell me how has it really affect your life? Something that is followed by people amounting in the low hundreds if even that is so insignificent. How can the harm done by this deception be justified. Funny thing is its RU who has really injured itself.

I can agree that if the net could be relied on for truth and nothing else but in the world I live in it aint never going to happen so if we do begin to police ourselves and not others Maybe someday it will be(frack my wife talked to me and I lost where I was going)

Let me end with these are only my opinions and hold others opinion even those in opposition just as valid as mine . And want to thank everyone for keeping this subject civil. This is all very interesting.
"You can either trust people or not. I choose to trust what people say and sometimes I get lied to. If I were to trust no one I would never hear the truth." - James (IPF) Martell
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Postby I.P.Freely » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:49 am

Zep Tepi wrote:
I.P.Freely wrote:Ray or anyone else for that matter could you please list the names of all those Injured by the serpo story and how much harm was inflicted on them.


Well IPF, according to one particular doctor who most around here would be familiar with, a person who suffers from delusional thoughts can be medically affected by having those delusions reinforced through being subjected to stories such as Serpo and the like.

As for your glib request for names, I think Ray might have already answered that.... :roll:


Yeah but could have is not the same as did suffer . I could suffer from you lieing to me too but I don,t , I just don,t like it .

I hear the word criminal being used but I,m aware of any law being broken. I what to know what harm has been done.

I take it then you are not a member of Victor's list? You make it sound like just because you aren't aware of any laws being broken that none have. Wrong.
I'm not referring to certain accusations being levied against us either. I've said it before but it is applicable in this instance too, people should really try and verify information before spouting off libellous crap in public.


No I am not a member and I don,t assume to know everything in fact I know very little. Thats why I ask what laws have been broken? Are you trying to tell me you can seek legal action but have just chosen not to do so. Why?


I asked this question twice before in the past with no answer. Can anyone please with the exception of GW name just one person who believes serpo to be 100% true.


Just one? How about Brendan Burton of OM? Why don't you read his recent posts on the subject, it's quite enlightening to see him spin so many 180's in such a short space of time.

Cheers,
Zep


I am unaware of him ever saying he believes 100% of serpo but will concede I don,t read everypost there.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:06 pm

I.P.Freely wrote:I can agree that if the net could be relied on for truth and nothing else but in the world I live in it aint never going to happen so if we do begin to police ourselves and not others Maybe someday it will be(frack my wife talked to me and I lost where I was going)


Leave it to the French to be the first to trample on freedom of expression and freedom of speech:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/03 ... index.html

And what gets me torqued is how often you hear the French talking down their noses to us in America about how "wrong" we are. It has gotten to the point that if I hear the French criticizing US policy, to me that becomes evidence that we must be doing the right thing. :)

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Postby I.P.Freely » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:14 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
I.P.Freely wrote:I can agree that if the net could be relied on for truth and nothing else but in the world I live in it aint never going to happen so if we do begin to police ourselves and not others Maybe someday it will be(frack my wife talked to me and I lost where I was going)


Leave it to the French to be the first to trample on freedom of expression and freedom of speech:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/03 ... index.html

And what gets me torqued is how often you hear the French talking down their noses to us in America about how "wrong" we are. It has gotten to the point that if I hear the French criticizing US policy, to me that becomes evidence that we must be doing the right thing. :)

Ray


Your changing the subject again or at the very least answering too after my quotes. And why bring up the French you could possibly know I,m of French desent or could you. Speaking of the French though I find it simply amazing that it is forgotten that without their help we would still be English.
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