Exopoliticians reaching out to Presidential candidates.

A study of the political relations between humanity and ET

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sat May 26, 2007 10:31 pm

David Griffin wrote:Aha... the 'fog' of Roswell as we call it. No point even going there.


And yet you did.

Jesse Marcel was a liar - no he wasn't.


Actually, you are aware (I hope) that there are reports verified by other people of him telling lies prior to the Roswell incident? For instance, there were people who reported that Jesse Marcel had told them he was a pilot, when in fact he was not. And I probably don't need to point out to you that the capability for humans to lie (or at least over-report what they think they saw) is the single biggest problem in accepting "eyewitness testimony" as sole evidence.

Skeptics like Robert G. Todd argue that Marcel had a history of embellishment and exaggeration, such as claiming to have been a pilot and having received five Air Medals for shooting down enemy planes, claims which were found to be false, and his evolving Roswell story was another instance of this.


http://www.roswellfiles.com/pdf/KowPflop120895.pdf

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Postby Access Denied » Sun May 27, 2007 3:58 pm

David Griffin wrote:Aha... the 'fog' of Roswell as we call it. No point even going there. Jesse Marcel was a liar - no he wasn't. Glen Dennis fabricated his part - no he didn't. Where do we move on from that sort of premise??!

I'd say you're back to square one. :)

Funny thing, after I signed off yesterday morning I was going to go for a little ride and then have lunch with the boys at my friend’s m/c shop but my oldest grandson wanted me to watch some cartoons with him before I left. Ironically, the cartoon he was watching was “Buzz Lightyear” and the plot was based on the Roswell myth only it took place on a planet where the “humans” were all little grey aliens and Buzz and his crew were the “aliens” that crashed. Too f’ing funny! My favorite line was when the little grey alien general says “I told everybody it was a weather balloon so we have to make sure nobody EVER finds about these aliens. Put them in deep freeze!” :lol: . I guess you had to be there to get the subtle humor but the point is Roswell has been elevated to the stuff of Saturday morning cartoon fodder.

BTW here’s a thread about “The Day BEFORE Roswell” :lol: I started here a while back, might be some stuff you've never heard before…

http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... .php?t=772

David Griffin wrote:More soon... Just finished interviewing Alfred L Webre. Don't know if it will be received well here though.

Dunno, heard the name but don’t know anything about him.
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Postby ryguy » Mon May 28, 2007 3:07 am

David Griffin wrote:
More soon... Just finished interviewing Alfred L Webre. Don't know if it will be received well here though. On that note does the copyright on the join RU/ATS video of ALW being interviewed still hold or can it be shared and copied?



First of all - why would it not be received well? Our interview with Dr. Webre was very positive and portrayed nothing but a well spoken and intelligent man. The only negative side of the whole thing were the things people like Victor and Pippen made up about our motivations - because we wouldn't "sell out" to the Pippen show and go into a collaborate marketing scheme with them. So if you want to believe the moronic hype, my friend, go ahead - but if you actually take the time to view the video and our positive promotion of it - you'll quickly realize that what you've heard or read about us couldn't be further from the truth. Dr. Webre was horribly deceived and lied to about us, which was terribly unfortunate - he's a very nice man.

And yes, we maintain the copyright along with the production company who created the video. ATS only had a one time distribution right to help us promote it. As far as distributing it for free - not sure, we'd have to pass that by the production company who has a 50% interest in the final video. That's the DVD anyway - the video file is obviously available for download at ATS for free at any time and can be shared anywhere. If you want a higher quality version of the download, just let Zep or I know and we can hook you up.

By the way - I'm sensing some insinuations from you, David, in regards to our collective beliefs here, and a sort of tongue-in-cheek 'tolerating" of, what you consider I'm sure, our unenlightened world-view. I would suggest you consider a different approach - we don't all share the same collective views here, and while careful in any analysis of this kind of phenomenon (not believing everything one reads - or placing the burden of proof on the person making extra-ordinary claims) we are also basically open minded and willing to accept that phenomenon exists, that it's real, and that there is an explanation for it. We are just not as quick to jump to conclusions as most others are. And there's something very positive to be said for that. As one particular Dr. once said - a great mind needs to be protected from becoming a wind-tunnel.

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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon May 28, 2007 3:54 pm

I "sense" the same thing too Ry. People who peddle ideas based on evidence not fit to bear the name tend to react a certain way when pertinent questions are raised and obvious flaws pointed out to them.

Kind of like the below:
...some sanity in a world of insane forums, "know-it-all" forum-posters and pseudo-ratiionalist evidence fascists.


I guess that makes us "know-it-all" fascists, eh David?

Sheesh!

In saying that, I would be interested in receiving the pdf regarding the Roswell event. My email is sbroadbent@realityuncovered.com

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Postby David Griffin » Mon May 28, 2007 4:57 pm

Hey - we all need more humour and large tablespoon of irony occasionally, more so in this area than any other. It's the only thing that keeps us 'sane' in an insane, topsy-turvey whirrled. There far harsher situations on this planet to *really* get upset about IMO. Let's find some collective perspective on things.

It's interesting that I've had 5 emails sent by people [I presume] not posting on this forum. Without exception they suggested that I keep plodding on with the direction and context under discussion here [I never saw it as a 'direction' or 'agenda' - it's just exploration IMO] so you must have a lot of readers who don't post. I was also told that there is a tendancy to be drawn in in an attempt to pull people 'on-side] [whatever that is] and if this fails the gang tend to "arrive". I've not been regular enough to notice this aspect and haven't seen it to date.

I do however think that a forum can be judged by

A: It's wide range of tolerated inputs/discussion
B: how many longer term posters continue to input.

..after all - anyone can create a place for their mates to meet up. It's harder to continue to provide a platform where longer term people feel they can continue to openly input.

Anyway - I used to get far worse aimed at me. Mostly that I'm a gullible mo-fo!!

Useful to develop an kind of offence bypass facility I've found. All good practice for when we all stand before the cosmic joker at the end of time...

PDF on way.

<Edit>

I just added a small piece on the upcoming UK event. You can get the PDF from UFOdata.co.uk [hosts] or here:

http://www.exopolitics.org.uk/docs/rosw ... t-2007.pdf

It's interesting that both Jesse Marcel Jr and Kevin Randle are scheduled to speak. The latter has done significant research into the validity of Marcel's father in his role with regards to much of the Roswell evidence and chronology. - I may be wrong on that but I am sure that's the case. Food fights all round maybe??!
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Postby David Griffin » Mon May 28, 2007 8:46 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:I guess that makes us "know-it-all" fascists, eh David?
Sheesh!


Ahh - I could have been on about numerous UFO forums. Also you need to insert 'evidence' in there! Calling someone an evidence fascist has a bit of laughability in it. Calling someone a straight fascist is a bit too serious for me.

The point is even people like me can be an evidence hugger - it's when that huggin becomes a loop that blinds you to the fact that on a wider scale we have it by the shed-load.

As J Allen Hyneck** said [after his years of swamp gassing] :

"You want evidence? Just show me where to back up the semi-truck..."


**disclaimer for those who want evidence about this evidence, I stole the quote from someone else and cannot formally reference it.

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Postby David Griffin » Mon May 28, 2007 9:14 pm

First of all - why would it not be received well?


I didn't know much about the Jerry Pippin etc stuff till it was mentioned to me a few weeks ago. I didn't mean it about that anyway I meant more that some of the content discussed would be jumped on immediately by the majority here perhaps. I think this would do a dis-service to a guy that has spent his life to date trying to make the planet a better place to live. Elsewhere online I have seen ALW's take on things get ridiculed - but of course by people who are perhaps just out of their teens and have yet to leave the comfort of the proverbial armchair.

And yes, we maintain the copyright along with the production company who created the video. ATS only had a one time distribution right to help us promote it. As far as distributing it for free - not sure, we'd have to pass that by the production company who has a 50% interest in the final video. That's the DVD anyway - the video file is obviously available for download at ATS for free at any time and can be shared anywhere. If you want a higher quality version of the download, just let Zep or I know and we can hook you up.


There was some good stuff said in it. See also his recent conscious-media network interview. I think the copy [.mov?] I have could be made into a DVD - it was more I wanted to chop a few bits out of it as we have started making an Exopol "PR" or info video. Obviously this would involved stealing footage from numerous sources which is why I asked about the copyright.

By the way - I'm sensing some insinuations from you, David, in regards to our collective beliefs here, and a sort of tongue-in-cheek 'tolerating" of, what you consider I'm sure, our unenlightened world-view.


I don't consider you all as one group. Neither to I consider you unenlightened - you have a role to play as I have said before. However we all have human limits - which is why forums are not the best way of dealing with some issues - especially this type maybe. I'm sure if we all sat in a room 90% of these issues would vanish.

I've just spent a long part of my life facing people who claim they use 'a healthy doubt' or idea of being 'balanced' when actually some of this is plain negativity and fear of ridicule. You are bang on with the T.I.C. toleration - this is simply a method of coping... we ALL have these coping strats - we just do them differently - otherwise I give up and go elsewhere as defeatist as this may sound. You *need* to have a sense of humour at the complete weirdity with which we are involved with. Bill Hicks had it. More UFOlogy researchers need to stop thinking they are simply taking a new form of physics class!

Failing this - you could always ban me :wink:

PS: I thought my paracast conversation was spot on!! We obviously have fundamentally different ways of seeing the world. Harry Enfield would do those two a treat :twisted:
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue May 29, 2007 12:04 am

David Griffin wrote:Hey - we all need more humour and large tablespoon of irony occasionally, more so in this area than any other. It's the only thing that keeps us 'sane' in an insane, topsy-turvey whirrled. There far harsher situations on this planet to *really* get upset about IMO. Let's find some collective perspective on things.


Absolutely, I agree and I'm pretty sure most of the members here do so too.

It's interesting that I've had 5 emails sent by people [I presume] not posting on this forum. Without exception they suggested that I keep plodding on with the direction and context under discussion here [I never saw it as a 'direction' or 'agenda' - it's just exploration IMO] so you must have a lot of readers who don't post.


Without exploration we would still be living in those caves you mentioned elsewhere ;)

WRT the number of readers who don't post, it is a (surprisingly?) high number and has remained pretty constant for quite some time now. I posted in another thread about this recently so I won't go on about it here.

I was also told that there is a tendancy to be drawn in in an attempt to pull people 'on-side] [whatever that is] and if this fails the gang tend to "arrive". I've not been regular enough to notice this aspect and haven't seen it to date.


Cool, we have a "gang!? That's new to me lol. I doubt very much you will see behaviour of that type around here David, although I'm not surprised you have been told it goes on. We get accused of all kinds of things over here. I'm surprised we haven't been blamed for the genocide in Darfur tbh...

I do however think that a forum can be judged by

A: It's wide range of tolerated inputs/discussion
B: how many longer term posters continue to input.

..after all - anyone can create a place for their mates to meet up. It's harder to continue to provide a platform where longer term people feel they can continue to openly input.


Again I agree. However, in some instances not everyones views have been tolerated which is why we also have a private area for our more "longer-term" members. RU is also not just about being a "forum". We have a dedicated research team here who do some fantastic work behind the scenes. A lot of that work is ongoing and is obviously not something that gets discussed in the public areas.

Anyway - I used to get far worse aimed at me. Mostly that I'm a gullible mo-fo!!


You have been called gullible?! Never! ;)

Useful to develop an kind of offence bypass facility I've found. All good practice for when we all stand before the cosmic joker at the end of time...


Yeah, I guess I might have some 'splainin' to do when that time comes... hehe.

PDF on way.

<Edit>

I just added a small piece on the upcoming UK event. You can get the PDF from UFOdata.co.uk [hosts] or here:

http://www.exopolitics.org.uk/docs/rosw ... t-2007.pdf


Thanks for that, the event looks... interesting :)

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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue May 29, 2007 12:11 am

David Griffin wrote:
Zep Tepi wrote:I guess that makes us "know-it-all" fascists, eh David?
Sheesh!


Ahh - I could have been on about numerous UFO forums. Also you need to insert 'evidence' in there! Calling someone an evidence fascist has a bit of laughability in it. Calling someone a straight fascist is a bit too serious for me.


Point taken re the laughability factor. I guess we are "evidence fascists in a way. I prefer the term "sensible" however.

The point is even people like me can be an evidence hugger - it's when that huggin becomes a loop that blinds you to the fact that on a wider scale we have it by the shed-load.


That would depend on several factors, but is something best left for the "evidence" thread in this section.

As J Allen Hyneck** said [after his years of swamp gassing] :

"You want evidence? Just show me where to back up the semi-truck..."


That swamp gas can be a bitch.Once it gets in your hair and on your clothes it's a nightmare to remove!

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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue May 29, 2007 12:24 am

David Griffin wrote:There was some good stuff said in it. See also his recent conscious-media network interview. I think the copy [.mov?] I have could be made into a DVD - it was more I wanted to chop a few bits out of it as we have started making an Exopol "PR" or info video. Obviously this would involved stealing footage from numerous sources which is why I asked about the copyright.


It was an "interesting" interview, to say the least. Off the top of my head I remember him saying there were underground bases on Mars...

And people get hung up on us wanting to see evidence of fantastic claims!? Lol

ryguy wrote:
David Griffin wrote:By the way - I'm sensing some insinuations from you, David, in regards to our collective beliefs here, and a sort of tongue-in-cheek 'tolerating" of, what you consider I'm sure, our unenlightened world-view.


I don't consider you all as one group. Neither to I consider you unenlightened - you have a role to play as I have said before. However we all have human limits - which is why forums are not the best way of dealing with some issues - especially this type maybe. I'm sure if we all sat in a room 90% of these issues would vanish.


The simple fact of the matter is everyone who posts here, are here for more or less the same reasons - it says it above under the site name section of the forum: "Searching for the answers"

I've just spent a long part of my life facing people who claim they use 'a healthy doubt' or idea of being 'balanced' when actually some of this is plain negativity and fear of ridicule. You are bang on with the T.I.C. toleration - this is simply a method of coping... we ALL have these coping strats - we just do them differently - otherwise I give up and go elsewhere as defeatist as this may sound. You *need* to have a sense of humour at the complete weirdity with which we are involved with. Bill Hicks had it. More UFOlogy researchers need to stop thinking they are simply taking a new form of physics class!


Bill Hicks was an absolute legend :)

Failing this - you could always ban me :wink:


As long as you don't start calling people names you should be fine lol.

PS: I thought my paracast conversation was spot on!! We obviously have fundamentally different ways of seeing the world. Harry Enfield would do those two a treat :twisted:


I've spoken to Gene and David in the past, they certainly do have a great sense of humour. One thing they do not do though, and I share this trait with them one hundred percent, they do not suffer fools gladly.

I know our US friends won't understand this next bit, but am I the only one who thought "Ruddy Hell it's Harry and Paul" was actually quite funny?

I saw you coming, you see :lol:

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 29, 2007 3:29 pm

"Evidence fascist"... huh, yeah that one is pretty funny, for a whole host of reasons. Not the least of which is that "fascist" implies a dictatorial authority. And so if there were any one thing/force that I would actually WANT to "dictate reality", my vote would certainly be for "evidence". It could make a GREAT dictator! :) Better than most humans I know of! ;)

RE: Alfred Webre... From what I have seen of him, and read of him, I do agree he does seem to be a very nice guy, and he does appear quite sincere. So he certainly gets points from me for being nice and sincere. But even nice and sincere people can still be....ummmm..... "mislead"? The point is (for me) that just because someone is nice does not mean they cannot be wrong. In fact, from what little I know of you, David, you seem to be a pretty nice guy. And I do not "attack" you as a person. I am "attacking" your evidence, and your willingness to throw some of this "evidence" into a hopper just so you can call it part of a "continuum".

The problem I have with folks who do this is the "belief factor". When faced with evidence that counters their belief, they will just continue to believe and not even make an attempt to (a) Admit there is contradictory evidence, or (b) Give an explanation for why the contradictory evidence does not matter. More often than not the contradictory evidence simply falls on deaf ears. Such a stance is very difficult for a person who wants answers, and accepts science as the best means to get them, to figure out. The "evidence left out" of Linda Moulton Howe's presentation is quite damning. I went back and watched the whole video, and I made a specific mental note about her theatrics of "no one can reproduce it" and "SOMEONE please tell me about Bi/Mg...". Responsible reporting (at this point) would be to admit what Nicholas Reiter had found, and to share this with the audience. If she really was coming at this from an "unbiased journalist" POV, then she should have no problem including this. The fact that she does NOT do this speaks volumes about her journalistic integrity, and (as often happens in information analysis) reveals something of her motives for doing what she does.

My bet is that each item that ExoPo folks have used to insinuate a "continuum of evidence" likely has some "nasty secrets" that are not being openly spoken about. Secrets that counter the "just believe, and let's move on" motto. As such, those of us who will look at "the good and the bad evidence" sometimes fancy ourselves as being more dedicated to the truth than those who would only look at the truth that supports our beliefs.

Just my 2 bits,
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Postby ryguy » Tue May 29, 2007 5:11 pm

Very excellent points Ray. A good example is the latest modification we had to make in our Aviary investigation related to Serpo and the TC Group. Earlier evidence appeared to confirm the conclusion of involvement in the TC releases of the Rubens. The latest evidence shows that there's another person(s) emailing out the releases of that scam of "insider information". Evidence contradicts our earlier conclusion, so we modify as needed to get closer to the truth.

You are absolutely right - pride, ego, and a religious sort of indoctrination into a set of beliefs are pretty much the norm in this field, and it takes a great deal of effort to avoid those traps. But I think if we can avoid them, we can move ourselves closer and closer to maintain an ability to decipher the good evidence from the tained evidence - the erroneous data from the veridical/hard data. The more junk we can filter out, and the more gems we can uncover, the better positioned we'll be to get a good clear view of the big picture.

It's unfortunate, and very sad, to see people so indoctrinated into a belief system that doesn't follow this tried and true approach of science - using new solid evidence, compared to previous "truths", in order to constantly fine-tune what we know to be true - even when/if they contradict current beliefs. It's the only way.

For example - David....if you present me with that evidence that convinced you of your 100% belief of alien contact (I'm still waiting to see it btw...or did I miss it?)....and it contradicts my/our current understanding of what is true and what are scams/hoaxes, you better believe I would be quick to modify our confirmed set of verified truths. On the other hand, if I were to present evidence to you that completely contradicts claims made by the likes of Burisch, Lear, or any others you may be convinced are legitimate - and that evidence contradicts your current beliefs on those issues, would you be just as willing to modify your set of "truths" accordingly?

My guess is...probably not.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 29, 2007 5:44 pm

Ry,

pride, ego, and a religious sort of indoctrination into a set of beliefs are pretty much the norm in this field


Excellent choice of words. And it should be reinforced that these exact same tendencies show up in "the body politic" that make it such a tenuous activity when it comes to "truth" ("Party loyalty" anyone?). Hence, mixing UFOlogy with politics (as in ExoPo) has some serious issues to deal with in their "business plan" so as to prevent these nasty human traits from compromising their mission statement.

IMO, they have a very big uphill battle.
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Postby David Griffin » Tue May 29, 2007 7:49 pm

Ahhh, look. After a bit of introductory squabblin' - we're all starting to get along and more importantly get on with the work at hand :o

Praise the Buddha! - Sure beats having to flick thru ATS - most people there didn't even know who John Lear was during the 9/11/PentaMissile discussions! I mean Lear in the context of a pilot of a famous jet - not as the way out lunar conspirator you think he is.

I think I'm being pretty brave facing all you lot on my own. Don't see many others here coming to help. I reckon you've banned any IP address not referred by the James Randi "Education" Forum.

I thought that you could all listen patiently to the interview with ALW I'm just uploading - we tried to cover some of the areas that have been brought up here and elsewhere. Then I'll come back to these points. I'm aware that most people here will write off the whole interview when the term 'indigo' gets mentioned [or even Mars!] - such is the desire to lazily dismiss anything not presentable in a bona fide government lab - preferably in 3d solid-ness format with a label on saying "proper evidence".

Bare in mind we already gave you a piece of saucer. Now I should really be asking for some definitive evidence that this whole phenomena is a man made process. If you can put that little item in an envelope I'll happily print my address here. :P

I'll post the ALW interview on another thread - unless you have a media topic area. Hopefully the non-WEP'd NTL connection I've got will hold out long enough to get it posted.
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Postby David Griffin » Tue May 29, 2007 8:25 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Ry,

Hence, mixing UFOlogy with politics (as in ExoPo) has some serious issues to deal with in their "business plan" so as to prevent these nasty human traits from compromising their mission statement.

Ray


Ray - I appreciate you are an engineer and so you'll think some of the language used in the Webre discussion is a bit dippy - but the first few questions asked relates to what you keep going on about above with re the definition of exopolitics.

I've also addressed this previously but let's try again.
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