Scientific Proof that God Exists

Holographic Universe or Computer Simulation? Big Bang or God?

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Postby Access Denied » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:43 am

dan wrote:And learning how to twist in the wind gracefully, is defintely a survival skill! Obviously I am still a novice.....

Well, all I can say is if you wanted a tough crowd, I know from experience you definitely came to the right place. :)

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Postby dan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:13 am

Serp:
Mr Gowan's epiphanies appear logical to me.

Simple and elegant, also.

Where, if anywhere, are we going wrong?


I would agree that John’s epiphanies are not plainly wrong. By the same token they are plainly not scientific. But if they are not intended to be scientific statements of fact, then what are they?

That is John’s problem. He uses scientific terminology to make metaphysical assertions, without providing an alternative context or rational construct within which we might judge their validity or coherence. In short, he leaves his assertions twisting in the wind.

Every statement I make, in the context of the BPWH, comes with a set of overarching principles by which it may be judged. The BPWH is a SYSTEM of truth claims that will either all hang together, or all fall apart. It claims to be self-contained, self-generating and wholly coherent to any rational mind. Ultimately it describes and explains the world and our ultimate concerns to a degree that Science has never even pretended to aspire.

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Postby dan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:55 am

Ray:
Isn't it obvious? By not accepting Father Dan Smith as our personal savior and messiah! There can be no other conclusion (in Dan's own inflated mind).

Cult of BPWH... in all its fraudulent festooning!


My response to Ray is that Science has many more attributes of being a cult, than does the BPWH. The principle cult-like feature of science is its proprietary, hierarchical and closed system of expertise and increasingly ritualized, esoteric procedures.

Like most organized religions, science increasingly becomes preoccupied with its own internal concerns and livelihood, leaving the interests of us laity twisting in the wind. Scientists frequently congratulate themselves on fact that their knowledge has no practical application.

The cult of science, i.e. SCIENTISM, increasingly spends its intellectual resources either in defending itself from the religious cults or in simply attacking them.

I make no claims to any proprietary knowledge or rituals. I am here to destroy the Priesthood of Truth, which is what Science has become.

Science pretends to have a death-grip on the Truth. Truth, according to Science, is no longer accessible to ordinary people.


(cont.)
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Postby dan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:24 pm

(cont.)

I am not the only one in the world who is concerned with the overreaching pretensions of Science, qua SCIENTISM.

But I am the only one who is making a Federal and a Cosmic case out of these concerns.

It does appear that I am taking on Goliath single-handed, without even a sling-shot. My only weapon is the God-given power of reasoning that I share with every other mortal.

Science came into the world as an abortion of the Truth, as a metaphysical bastard child, born of a Solomon’s compromise between itself and Religion. In making that political pact with the Devil, both Science and Religion ensured their ultimate death sentences.

The Compromise of which I speak is the Cartesian Dichotomy between matter and spirit. That Dichotomy is the false foundation of the Modern worldview. Science and Religion each took a half-truth, and now are equally guilty, as co-conspiring partners in this crime, of this Original Sin.

So, unlike David, I have two Monsters to slay with one stone.

Science without religion is blind. Religion without science is empty. Each has become a mere Shadow of the Truth.

And, so, it is much too late, after all theses centuries, to attempt to simply graft the one back onto the other.

Yes, of course, we do need a systemic theory of the world. That is just what the BPWH purports to be. But, to take any given set of ideas and suppose that they can patch up the differences between Science and Religion, is rather like using a band-aid to patch a knife wound to the gut.

A major surgery is called for. But I am not a Surgeon; I am a visionary.

My job is to reconceive the Truth, not in compromise, but in its essential Fullness.


(cont.)
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Postby caryn » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:51 pm

Do excuse the interruption. Here's a thoughful paper to ponder over:

A ferret tail chase—the perpetual closed loop of open system reflecting-theorising

http://www.latrobe.edu.au/aqr/offer/papers/McKenzie.htm
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Postby dan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:21 pm

Caryn,

Thank you for the interruption.

McKenzie is an excellent read.

His pantheism can and should be added to my theism. He focuses on the Psychology of holism, I focus on the Cosmology of holism.

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Postby ryguy » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:28 pm

Thanks for posting Caryn...what a read... I loved this quote btw...just beyond halfway down.

This is my life, this Conch that envelops me, and I am the centre of gravity. I look behind, and see the past receding into some mysterious still point, beyond memory. I look ahead, down the future. That's not life's end, that still point: it's the culmination of my quest for understanding. This Conch, this cognitive spiral, is my intellectual life... as it appears to me in the present. The still point of the future is the unknown potential to which I aspire. A spire.

I breathe out.

I breathe in. Speck of dust I was, and shall be. I view the bottom of the black hole always and only from where I am. The phial of unknowing is forever. It is enough. (McKenzie 1996 p.107)


It reminded me of "ashes to ashes...dust to dust".

"The phial of unknowing is forever." Truer words were never spoken.

Thanks again for posting it Caryn.

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Postby dan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:36 pm

It reminded me of "ashes to ashes...dust to dust".

"The phial of unknowing is forever." Truer words were never spoken.


Yes, we are but dust before the unfathomable Mystery of God.

But, do recall that we are created in the image of that Mystery. We partake of and participate in that Mystery.

As co-Creators, we have a Need to Know certain things at certain times.

Paradigm Shifts happen!

When Phenomenology hits the fan, it will be one of those times.

Just think of me as the girl scout……always prepared!
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Postby Max » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:43 pm

Dan, as I said previously, I don't want to keep going over the BPWH, but I am curious about this: What do you hope to get out of the "paradigm shift" when it occurs? What is your scenario, and where will you be, what will you be doing?
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Postby dan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:29 pm

Max,

What do you hope to get out of the "paradigm shift" when it occurs? What is your scenario, and where will you be, what will you be doing?


Same as now, but maybe a little more of it!

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Postby Serpentime » Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:48 am

dan wrote:That is John’s problem. He uses scientific terminology to make metaphysical assertions, without providing an alternative context or rational construct within which we might judge their validity or coherence.


Dan,

If Mr. Gowan's Metaphysics do not flow strictly from Science - and I would like to hear Ray's opinion, also - what non-scientific "context" validates his "epiphany" of fractal energy and information to the point that you pronounce him "not plainly wrong"?


dan wrote:The BPWH is a SYSTEM of truth claims that will either all hang together, or all fall apart. It claims to be self-contained, self-generating and wholly coherent to any rational mind.


Logos versus mathematics? In my hypothesis, there is much, indeed, to be said for Logos, but even more to be said for the synergy of mathematics and Logos combined. Then again, mathematics and Logos are equally functions of the Grand Design; parallel and complementary both at once.


dan wrote:Ultimately it describes and explains the world and our ultimate concerns to a degree that Science has never even pretended to aspire.


The BPWH is a multidisciplinary approach that cross-straps Spirit to Energy?

A Grand Unified Theory of sorts?

If so, then the Scientific Method (shorn of SCIENTISM) appears to be a useful operative "tool" to facilitate (and relate, by way of coherence) such a broad cross-strapping.

In truth, is the SM truly incapable of quantifying Metaphysical Intent?


Then again, a Tool is not a religion, either.


dan wrote:The Compromise of which I speak is the Cartesian Dichotomy between matter and spirit. That Dichotomy is the false foundation of the Modern worldview.


In my Hypothesis, Descartes should have specified: "I Perceive, therefore I am." For me, this tends to reduce the dichotomy.

The Cartesian "Dichotomy" is a fallacy, and its misapprehension has created many problems for Western thought.


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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:07 am

Serp,

Serpentime wrote:
dan wrote:That is John’s problem. He uses scientific terminology to make metaphysical assertions, without providing an alternative context or rational construct within which we might judge their validity or coherence.


Dan,

If Mr. Gowan's Metaphysics do not flow strictly from Science - and I would like to hear Ray's opinion, also - what non-scientific "context" validates his "epiphany" of fractal energy and information to the point that you pronounce him "not plainly wrong"?


Dan has committed yet another blunder of ego, and you can bet he will never admit it. I presented him with Mr. Gowan's website just yesterday, and it took him only a matter of a couple hours to totally dismiss it with the statement above. Need I point out the irony of this coming from the man whom the majority of us have to keep honest, and point out to him that a large number of his own claims (whether here or in his maze of BPWH) have no independent means of verification?

It is ridiculous enough that Dan Smith, the claimer of things unverified, can pass this sort of judgment on the work of Mr. Gowan, but it becomes downright insulting and preposterous when you spend some time to read through the sheer volume of Mr. Gowan's work. There is absolutely no way that Dan could have reviewed Mr. Gowan's information with sufficient detail to make the kind of sweeping denial he has. That is simply fact. I know it because I have taken the time to read a great deal of Mr. Gowan's work.

Moreover, Dan has absolutely no idea how some of the "gems" in Mr. Gowan's work dovetail and fit in with my own work in Information Theory and the Tree Of Life. Dan is throwing out more than the baby with the bathwater... he is throwing out Information that has its Genesis in his blessed Sophia.

Dan also wishes to give someone the impression that Mr. Gowan is some sort of unqualified wonk. Dan wants people to simply "trust him" and his judgment of Mr. Gowan's work rather than look into it themselves. And if one does look into it for themselves, one will see a large number of places where Mr. Gowan positively cites the scientific basis for his thoughts and ideas.

For example, let's look at these statements he makes about Entropy and Information:

http://people.cornell.edu/pages/jag8/causal.html

The connection between Information and Entropy is time and temporal causality. The time component is necessary to link each piece of information (each bit) into the "causal matrix" of matter. Time is the entropy drive of matter and information, and creates the causal linkage of matter's information matrix or historic causal domain. Each quantum bit of information is associated with a quantum bit or link of time (like a chain link), which integrates the information bit into the general causal matrix or information field of matter. Entropy is always associated with energy, in this case bound energy, so a quantum unit of time or temporal entropy can be associated with a quantum unit of energy as well as of information. The gravitational conversion of space and spatial entropy into time and temporal entropy reaches a natural limit in the "event horizon" of a black hole where g = c. The surface area of a black hole's event horizon is proportional to its entropy, in terms of time or information (theorem of Bekenstein and Hawking).

A famous connection between Entropy and Information is between Boltzmann's statistical thermodynamic entropy and Shannon's information entropy. The two are computed by the same mathematical formula and when calculated for the same degrees of freedom (the same variables) are equal. The connection between elemental time and information in our Tetrahedron Model applies equally to both types of entropy, satisfying the condition that Shannon (or Boltzmann) entropy is not associated with meaning or significance, which is context dependent. The meaning or significance of information, with which we are of course very much concerned, is a characteristic of higher levels of the natural hierarchy, including information in the sense of complex organizational states, such as the functioning human body or society. See: Scientific American Aug. 2003 p. 58-65 "Information in the Holographic Universe" by Jacob D. Bekenstein.


It is quite clear Mr. Gowan knows his modern physics (moreso than Dan, the alleged physics major I might add!). But he also demonstrates his awareness of critical concepts in Information Theory through his study of one of the greats in this field Teilhard de Chardin:

http://people.cornell.edu/pages/jag8/chardin.html

The Physics of Spirit

Spirit resides in the connections between things. Our sense of spirit is our sense of connection to the Universe. When the Universe consisted only of light (and symmetric particle-antiparticle pairs), this connection was complete. When this primordial symmetric state was broken by the asymmetric production of matter in the Creation Event, this universal connectivity was disrupted, and took a different form, retreating to the conserved charges of matter (including spin and gravitation), the symmetry debts of light, which constitute the information content of elementary particles and a "memory" of their symmetric origin. (See also: "The Time Train" which explores further aspects of the peculiar disconnection between matter and its entropy drive (time), and its conservation domain (historic spacetime).)

The information pathway is the story of spirit reestablishing its original universal connectivity within the realm of matter. In the process, spirit reveals the infinite variety of information and identity which existed as only a potential in the primordial symmetric state. The development of the information pathway to a total material expression of universal, physical connectivity would correspond to Chardin's notion of the "Omega Point", the physical expression of Divine Identity and unity, God's Kingdom made manifest, not only "Heaven on Earth", but Heaven throughout the material Universe.


There are some VERY important points he is making here which relate directly to the concepts of symmetry, symmetry-breaks, Noether Conservation Laws, and what all of these mean to the universal tendency for Matter (through the tool of consciousness and perception) to actively build NETWORKS for the purpose of exchanging INFORMATION.

This connection he makes between Spirit and the scientific principles of symmetry and symmetry-breaks are also directly related to the major premise of Systems Theory... namely, that it is not just the "components" of a system that are crucial... but the RELATIONSHIPS (i.e. network pathways) that connect the "components". The realization that Spirit "lives" in these relationships (interfaces) is critical to the eventual joining of Science and Spirituality. Spirit is "The Force" that brings two individuals (composed of Matter) together for the purpose of exchanging ideas (information) so that the two can become larger than the sum of their parts.

INTERACTION and INTERFACING are a major key to the universe, and this fact is all around us when we see that sentient matter (living systems) ALWAYS take on the topology of a network. This is precisely why this thing we call the Internet is (and will continue to be) a driving SPIRITUAL force for connecting people, and creating a Best Possible System (C)2007 Tree-O-Life.org!

Dan is a fool. He is so out of his element in Systems Theory that he cannot even put together the pieces that I am laying before him. Gnosis is the process of putting together a jigsaw puzzle based not only on that "inner voice" of Gnosis, but also that "extant knowledge" we have all collected through our life's experiences up to this point.

I am truly done with Dan. He diminishes the work of anyone but himself. His ego is so much larger than that of someone like Jack Sarfatti, and yet he will always take the opportunity to take pot-shots at Jack. He THINKS his BPWH is a coherent system. Glad he convinced himself of that, but I can guarantee everyone here (as a systems practitioner myself) that he will NEVER convince anyone who truly understands systems concepts that the BPWH is a "system".

Dan is a charlatan. And anyone who follows him in his messyantics without asking the key questions of a scientific (and systemic) nature get what they deserve.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:35 am

I would like to encourage all those here who are not fools (that is everyone but Dan) to read through Gowan's page on Teilhard de Chardin that I quoted some material from above:

http://people.cornell.edu/pages/jag8/chardin.html

If you appreciate the Systems Theory view, and even have a bit of knowledge about physics (i.e. the four forces and the goal to unify them), I think you will enjoy this read. And I think you will also see some clear connections between science and spirituality as a result.

I can also connect an important milestone in Gowan's work (the 3x4 fractal matrix schema) to the Tree Of Life, if anyone wishes. And if folks do wish to hear this story, perhaps it is best in the TOL thread...

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Postby dan » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:27 pm

Ray,

I'll be happy to read the pages of JG that you suggest, and get back to you with my comments.


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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:27 pm

dan wrote:Ray,

I'll be happy to read the pages of JG that you suggest, and get back to you with my comments.


You make the tactical error of thinking I will give a flying fig what you think.

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