Beyond the reach of verification by evidence.

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Beyond the reach of verification by evidence.

Postby MikeJamieson » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:28 am

Putting aside all the matters related to crashes and retrievals, government
cabals suppressing the truth of UFOs, underground bases, and the many potentially iffy signs of UFOs (like photos, which can be easily faked), there's another element to all of this UFO stuff that is clearly beyond the reach of being verified by traditional forms of evidence: the subtle forms of contact that many people assert has happened to them.

Experiences of SUBTLY interacting and communicating with beings who appear to be not human seems to be have been a fact for as long as we have been around. And, that type of thing seems beyond our capacity to verify.
Does that make these experiences automatically dismissable? I don't think so at least.

There could very well be people, who associate with today's exopolitical
movement, who are having very real experiences with apparent non-human others.
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Postby wetsystems » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:14 pm

Excellent points. It's not easy to dismiss the John Macks and Dave Jacobs' of this world.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Re: Beyond the reach of verification by evidence.

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:50 pm

MikeJamieson wrote:There could very well be people, who associate with today's exopolitical movement, who are having very real experiences with apparent non-human others.


No doubt. But the question becomes "what was your body chemistry at the time?" I recall Mr. David Griffin imploring to us that if we took psychoactive drugs we would "see lots of things." Indeed we would. But doesn't this just muddy the waters of veracity, a little more than a tad?

Does that make these experiences automatically dismissable? I don't think so at least.


I would say they are certainly dismissable if the subject had voluntarily modified their body/brain chemistry prior to the experience. I did magic mushrooms once (and only once!). Should I be permitted to make claims of what I saw during that trip as "real" and ask people to take the "invasion of the purple-headed amoebas" as a threat to our exopolitical stance? :?

And even if they did not voluntarily alter their body/brain chemistry, there is a distinct possibility that it was modified either through a semi-natural process (serotonin, or lack thereof, can do some wild things to our perceptions), or via an outside, coercive force (oh my! That shadow gov forcing us to see things!).

In the central nervous system, serotonin is believed to play an important role in the regulation of anger, aggression, body temperature, mood, sleep, vomiting, sexuality, and appetite. Low levels of serotonin may be associated with several disorders, namely increase in aggressive and angry behaviors, clinical depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), migraine, irritable bowel syndrome, tinnitus, fibromyalgia, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorders and intense religious experiences.


emphasis mine.

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Postby MikeJamieson » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:07 pm

Hi Ray, psychoactive substances was the furtherest thing from
my mind, actually, in referring to these types of experiences.
Which is why I never really got into examining Terence McKenna's
and John Lilly's experiences.

In the end, these body of experiences (the valid and non-hallucinatory
ones) are merely representative of the capacity of so called non-local awareness
to perceive stuff beyond the immediate range of our "neighborhood".

BTW, anybody who enjoys meditation may come to recognize the
inherent condition of awareness as without a center and a circumference,
non-local and non-dual. Sometimes, when resting in that condition,
our "antenna" can pick up murmurrings originating from god knows what
(in the end). BTW, I say "god knows what" because some people like Caryn who
have had experiences with these beings don't make a judgemental leap
to define the nature and origin of these beings.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:30 pm

Hi Mike,

MikeJamieson wrote:BTW, I say "god knows what" because some people like Caryn who have had experiences with these beings don't make a judgemental leap to define the nature and origin of these beings.


I think this is precisely my point when it comes to people who have taken psychoactives who HAVE jumped to conclusions, and are actively trying to "sell" such conclusions to others. It is one thing to report "I experienced something", but it is a BIG leap to then say "and I am certain it was aliens in a spaceship, therefore we must develop an exopolitical stance for how to deal with them." :)

I should also clarify, I am definitely not against exploring the possibilities of mentally-induced phenomenon and where they may lead. My interest in drawing a line has to do with establishing the extant reality (or lack thereof) of reported UFO phenomena. If we bypass the real, extant, physical world in attempting to understand these things, and immediately jump to the mental/psychoactive situation then we risk pitting one mind against another with respect to what represents our shared reality. And that would get us nowhere. Towhit: If there were two people out in the middle of the wilderness, one as sober as sober can be and the other high on esctasy. And if one of these two people claimed to see a UFO while the other claimed to see a mundane, terrestrial air vehicle, would it be possible to separate their "implicate orders" (states of mind) from the physical reality of what it is they were reporting on?

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Postby MikeJamieson » Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:52 pm

Besides seeing the mundane craft as a UFO, the guy on ecstasy
would also likely want to make love to it. :shock:
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:06 pm

MikeJamieson wrote:Besides seeing the mundane craft as a UFO, the guy on ecstasy
would also likely want to make love to it. :shock:


:lol: Reminds me of the Family Guy episode where Peter did ecstasy.

But I should also note that you assumed it was the person on ecstasy who claimed to see the UFO, but if you look I never specified which one saw what. And that even further underscores the issue of state of mind. What would we do if it was the sober person who claimed to see a UFO while the person who was clearly "sensorially-impaired" was the one who just said it was a normal air vehicle? Do we believe the sober person merely because they (think they) were unimpaired?

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Postby Serpentime » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:06 am

MikeJamieson wrote:BTW, anybody who enjoys meditation may come to recognize the
inherent condition of awareness as without a center and a circumference,
non-local and non-dual. Sometimes, when resting in that condition,
our "antenna" can pick up murmurrings originating from god knows what
(in the end).


From my own personal perspective, I would tend to agree with this statement.

While it is often mistakenly suggested that Human Beings only use "10%" of their "brains" to effect most of their everday lives, the intense focus of "mind", "body", and "soul", appears to actuate the closing of a "loop" (IMO) which can sometimes give rise to some very startling (?) emergent "phenomena" (again, IMO).

So-called "non-local" and "non-dual" awareness may describe some of these "phenomena", as I perceive them.


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Re: Beyond the reach of verification by evidence.

Postby I.P.Freely » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:57 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:

I would say they are certainly dismissable if the subject had voluntarily modified their body/brain chemistry prior to the experience. I did magic mushrooms once (and only once!). Should I be permitted to make claims of what I saw during that trip as "real" and ask people to take the "invasion of the purple-headed amoebas" as a threat to our exopolitical stance?


If thats all you saw you better try again and triple the dose this time. Then it gets too real.
"You can either trust people or not. I choose to trust what people say and sometimes I get lied to. If I were to trust no one I would never hear the truth." - James (IPF) Martell
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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:39 pm

This is hilarious... your reality is being chemically mediated anyway - it's arrogant to think otherwise.

These are endogenous chemicals we're talking about. They are switching your perception constantly - if you eradicate any data found on psychoactives you may as well discount everything you see in 'usual' reality because the same things are generating that too.

D.M.T. is endogenous to all human brains - put a little extra in lasts 15 minutes.... surely you can spare this from your hectic lives? At least have the balls to try it and come back and report before dismissing its links to the alien experience.

http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/

I love armchair critics... never get their synapses dirty. :twisted:
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Postby ryguy » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:26 pm

You're suggesting people should experiment with hallucinogenic drugs so that they can "see" aliens?

Speaking of humorous...that takes the cake.

Armchair critics? What exactly do you know about where we've been and what we've done? I'm getting fairly tired of your smug, elitist, arrogant attitude, I must say... You may claim to know a great deal about this subject area - that's fine, but don't you dare claim to know anything about anyone here. You've already demonstrated that you don't.

If you don't like how RU conducts true science-based analysis, David, then don't post here. If you truly want a respectful and cooperative dialog, then at least attempt to be respectful yourself, and resist throwing in immature little barbs in there just to insult and attack members who are only interested in a fair and accurate analysis of the truth. Just because they don't agree with your version of 'truth' doesn't mean you need to constantly throw insults into your post.

If you don't like the evidence-based approach, then, again, you're in the wrong place. And if you think it's *cute* simply hanging around to attack and antagonize, you won't be around very long.

If you truly want to maturely exchange ideas as well as learn in a cooperative analytical environment, then please do so.

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