New Spirituality Forum

[ryguy]

This new forum will be for the discussion of the various phenomenon such as ufo's, alien contact, alien visitations, abductions, parapsychology, and related paranormal phenomenon from a religious/spiritual perspective.

Considering the sensitive nature of this subject matter, there will be much tighter controls on attacks and insensitive or derogatory remarks toward other members related to their spiritual beliefs within this forum.

-Ry

[wetsystems]

This new forum will be for the discussion of the various phenomenon such as ufo's, alien contact, alien visitations, abductions, parapsychology, and related paranormal phenomenon from a religious/spiritual perspective.

Considering the sensitive nature of this subject matter, there will be much tighter controls on attacks and insensitive or derogatory remarks toward other members related to their spiritual beliefs within this forum.

-Ry

\

Might I ask why you saw fit to eliminate my post?

[ryguy]

You sure may.

It was insensitive and rude. It won't be allowed Kim. Please behave more maturely or leave.

[wetsystems]

It was none of that. It was simply incisive and ironic. These are ridiculous standards. Hard questions not allowed?

[wetsystems]

Whitehead said that 'All of Western philosophy is a footnote to Plato.' Would that that were better understood and that Plato be the point of departure in this discussion. But I fear instead we'll be shown the Taliban pap that has so enslaved us since the middle ages. Counting angels on the head of pin.

[ScaRZ]

In my opinion Toon you really don't care about sharing or learning. No matter what someone shares or how they try and answer your questions you really don't care. You Toon have one goal to fulfill, that's to put them down and draw them into a war of words.

Just because you don't have a faith or belief system in certain areas doesn't mean others don't. You believe there was a crash at Roswell with ET's on board. Many people share your view, but many people don't. Can you prove that event happened?......NO! but you have faith and a belief that it did. Were you there to see,hear,smell and touch it, to know it as 100% fact?.....NO!

All you have is what you've been told, what has been handed down, things you've studied and researched. Are these people,books,articles, research somehow at a higher standard than ancient writings from hundred and thousands of years ago?.....NO! Just because something is ancient, does that somehow lower it to only a myth,fantasy or fairy tale? Were these people somehow less credible because this took place in ancient days?

Let's look into the future and thousands of years from now some of todays greatest works of the history of the twentieth and twenty first centuries are discovered. I can only wonder how many people would really believe it occurred as it was written in those books. Would it only be a legend,myth,fantasy or fairy tale in their eyes? Would some believe and have faith it was authentic without being there to see it for themselves?

[wetsystems]

In my opinion Toon you really don't care about sharing or learning. No matter what someone shares or how they try and answer your questions you really don't care. You Toon have one goal to fulfill, that's to put them down and draw them into a war of words.

If you believe so it must be true. Prepare my hemlock cocktail. Wars are better fought with words rather than swords, however. The wars of conflicting Faiths always result in the latter, while the wars of Words (Dialectic) more often result in dissertations and other stoney raps. Why do you suppose that is?

I guess we all choose our Megiddos. This would be a good lesson for bible thumpers to learn. Unfortunately the category of Faith stands in their way. You might say that they're complicit in their own captivity, so to speak.

Just because you don't have a faith or belief system in certain areas doesn't mean others don't. You believe there was a crash at Roswell with ET's on board. Many people share your view, but many people don't. Can you prove that event happened?......NO! but you have faith and a belief that it did. Were you there to see,hear,smell and touch it, to know it as 100% fact?.....NO!

Nah. I don't have any 'faith' in the ETH. I simply feel that based upon what I've studied (and it's a lot including: Friedman, Moore, Klass, Sparks, Woods Sr. and Jr., Corso Sr. and Jr., Haut, Randle, Schmidt, Dolan, Randle, Birnes Sr. and Jr., Marcel Sr. and Jr., Balthaser, AD, Serp, and on and on ad nauseum ) that the ETH explanation for the Roswell affair is the most logical conclusion at this time. Can it turn out to be otherwise? Certainly. It's an ongoing investigation after-all.

All you have is what you've been told, what has been handed down, things you've studied and researched. Are these people,books,articles, research somehow at a higher standard than ancient writings from hundred and thousands of years ago?.....NO! Just because something is ancient, does that somehow lower it to only a myth,fantasy or fairy tale? Were these people somehow less credible because this took place in ancient days?

Before you come to that conclusion, bear in mind that I've suggested Plato as a point of departure for these discussions knowing full well that Socrates was already an ancient Dialectician when Jesus was still a pup. I have great respect for the Torah and the Synoptics as historical documents relating to the progress and philosophical bent of the Jewish people. I have great disdain for the bogus nonsense appended to them by religious zealots. This is an attitude that I share with the author of the American holy documents, the Declaration and the Bill of Rights, Thomas Jefferson. Check out Jesus without the miracles here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Let's look into the future and thousands of years from now some of todays greatest works of the history of the twentieth and twenty first centuries are discovered. I can only wonder how many people would really believe it occurred as it was written in those books. Would it only be a legend,myth,fantasy or fairy tale in their eyes? Would some believe and have faith it was authentic without being there to see it for themselves?

If it's history that con-cords with the testimony of archaeology and other contemporaneous evidence and documentation I'd say it's worthy of consideration and study- not 'faith.'

Now before you dismiss all of the above as, "That's just that old contrarian Toon rambling on about nothing," consider that I am by no means alone here in these assessments. Many thinking members of RU agree with my take.

[ryguy]

Scarz' point is that the arguments you make against Christianity, specifically, (a.k.a. - "bible thumpers") are the same arguments that can be used against any belief that is based, in large part, on what one considers to be "logical". What is logical to you may not be logical to others - and simply because you believe certain excerpts of brilliant writers match your "logical conclusion" - there are many others who would disagree.

Scarz isn't the only one who recognizes your targetting of "Christ"-based belief specifically. I've noticed it as well - and it's about time we put this perspective in the mix, because there's just as much value to it as those perspectives that are based on magic, aliens, channelled entities, or human consciousness. And all of those are just as much deserving of the label "religion" as are the mainstream faiths. None of those hypothesis and/or belief systems have anything more solid to support them than Christianity - in fact I'd even be so bold as to put forward that the Christian perspective has more evidence...if one truly does have an open mind to all perspectives.

But then...that requires the ability to look above one's own biases and contemplate Realities that we may initially find illogical - with the hope of discovering and learning something new (if the evidence substantiates it - and shows that there is something "real" to be found within).

If you want to have a battle of quotes, then we might do so, but for every atheist quote you might put forth, I gaurantee I can show you words of brilliant men who accept this perspective. And I don't even have to open the bible. I place my favorite first - Einstein himself. My second favorite is C.S. Lewis...regarding those who would call Christ only a "great human teacher." Great men, Toon, have come to a different conclusion than you have, regarding this important perspective.

-Ry

As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene....No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.
--Albert Einstein

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
--C.S. Lewis

I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.
–Napoleon

A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act. --Mahatma Gandhi

Jesus of Nazareth, without money and arms, conquered more millions than Alexander the Great, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning, he shed more light on things human and divine than all philosophers and scholars combined; without the eloquence of school, he spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since, and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, he set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient and modern times.
–Philip Schaff

I am an historian, I am not a believer, but I must confess as a historian that this penniless preacher from Nazareth is irrevocably the very center of history. Jesus Christ is easily the most dominant figure in all history.
--H.G. Wells

As the centuries pass, the evidence is accumulating that, measured by His effect on history, Jesus is the most influential life ever lived on this planet.
-- Historian Kenneth Scott Latourette

Socrates taught for 40 years, Plato for 50, Aristotle for 40, and Jesus for only 3. Yet the influence of Christ's 3-year ministry infinitely transcends the impact left by the combined 130 years of teaching from these men who were among the greatest philosophers of all antiquity.
–Unknown

I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are very wise and very beautiful; but I never read in either of them: "Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden." --Augustine

I accept the resurrection of Easter Sunday not as an invention of the community of disciples, but as a historical event. If the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on that Easter Sunday were a public event which had been made known...not only to the 530 Jewish witnesses but to the entire population, all Jews would have become followers of Jesus.
--Pinchas Lapide, Orthodox Jewish scholar, Germany (born 1922)

If I might comprehend Jesus Christ, I could not believe on Him. He would be no greater than myself. Such is my consciousness of sin and inability that I must have a superhuman Saviour.
--Daniel Webster

People talk about imitating Christ, and imitate Him in the little trifling formal things, such as washing the feet, saying His prayer, and so on; but if anyone attempts the real imitation of Him, there are no bounds to the outcry with which the presumption of that person is condemned.
--Florence Nightingale

[ryguy]

If it's history that con-cords with the testimony of archaeology and other contemporaneous evidence and documentation I'd say it's worthy of consideration and study- not 'faith.'

That's an excellent idea, and a good point. Probably an important starting point here, because it's one that is brought up often as a counterpoint for using the bible as a historical record - is the evidence behind the accuracy of the bible. I get hit with the argument "the bible has been translated so many times that it no longer represents an accurate account"....however evidence of that is hardly ever provided. A fantastic thread in here would be an examination of the true accuracy of "The Word"....an analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls, what they contained and confirmed in the book we call the bible as we know it, what percentage matches the oldest writings we have vs. not matched, and how much those variables actually changed the overall meaning of the text. That would be a fascinating and interesting consideration and study, IMHO.

-Ry

[wetsystems]

A few things. First I agree with Einstein and Jefferson on the wisdom of Jesus. As I've said before many times- to my mind he was probably the most brilliant mind in human history. (See my recent comments on The Beatitudes.) I have never stated that I believe Jesus is non-historical but that his story has been embellished to the extent that it requires great effort to extract the authentic Jesus from the religious dross. That is precisely the meaning of the Jeffersonian effort.

Second. The Torah and the Synoptics are both historical documents. They are simply the history of the Jews from the times of Abraham to the times of Jesus.- a span of perhaps 4000 years. Archaeology has validated the reality of many of the events and locations indicated in the documents and this discovery is an on-going process particularly in Israel- but also in Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Turkey. There is no disputing this. Recent finds include the location and some remains of palace of David and an extensive section of the wall of the second temple. Qumran, purportedly the main Essene settlement has been extensively excavated verifying certain elements of "The War of the Jews," by Josephus as well as Marc, Luke, Matthew and Paul.



Thirdly- what are you referring to in the 'battle of quotes?'

for every atheist quote you might put forth

The only 'quotes' contained in my post were quotes of my own words from previous writings.

[wetsystems]

The Dead Sea Scrolls support the accuracy of current renditions of the Hebrew Torah. There has been nothing lost and nothing added. The same cannot be said to be true in terms of the Torah translation into other languages. The King James, for instance, has huge points of divergence from the New Revised and the English language version authorized by the Union Of Reformed Judaism, and on and on and on. A lot of the differences can be accounted for the source used for the translation project- usually either Latin, Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. (Jesus is purported to have been an Aramaic speaker but this is in dispute.) In any case, the Qumran texts were written almost entirely in Hebrew- (although I seem to recall that there were also a few Aramaic and Greek texts amongst the cache.)

While I await a reply to this post, I realize that all sorts of Googling is going on to support various contentious replies. I'll note here this: Googling is not research, Ryan, regardless of how many google-quotes you may discover.

Ah to be back in 1968 when research was earned!

You are complicit in your own captivity. Arthur Afterburn, 1968. (AKA cartoonsyndicate)

[ScaRZ]

Toon you made some great points and that's why I enjoy many of the ancient writings that aren't in the Bible. I can't read Hebrew or Greek but if I could that would be the way to go.

Septuagint Bible in English is one that I read often because it would be from the Greek text. It is from the Greek manuscripts that the King James Bible was translated in 1611.

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/


Toon you brought up the Dead Sea Scrolls and how they match for accuracy with the Torah. In among the Dead Sea Scrolls was found the Book of Giants and most credit this work to Enoch.
This is where I get much of the information I post on Angels,Watchers,Giants,Nephillim and how they relate. The Book of Giants found among the Dead Sea Scrolls certainly backs this idea.

Here is a link to the Book of Giants below if you care to read it.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_b ... giants.htm


Here also is a link to many of the Apocalptic literature including-Enoch, 2 Enoch and Jubilees.

http://www.piney.com/ApocalypticIndex.html

[wetsystems]

I can't read Hebrew or Greek but if I could that would be the way to go.

Understand, Scarz., but I do read Hebrew- but more importantly, Yiddish i.e. 'Jewish'. On the other hand, Greek is greek to me. (for the most part) hahahaaha

I made the point a while back that Yeshua was not a Christian. Of course Ryan accused me of idiocy for that remark. hahahaha

But the fact remains that Yeshua was a Talmudic Jew- a Pharasaic Jew. Remember he said this: I come not to overturn the Law. And neither do I.

The Beatitudes are the essence of the Yeshu teachings.

I really don't want to bring confusion here. Just the truth. The truth is remote from the 'believers.' Know what I mean?

[ryguy]

While I await a reply to this post, I realize that all sorts of Googling is going on to support various contentious replies. I'll note here this: Googling is not research, Ryan, regardless of how many google-quotes you may discover.

Actually I was spending the evening with family at a nice little pizza place here in town - family is visiting form out of town.

Secondly - most of the quotes came from a single site I'd bookmarked ages ago, and a bunch came from a college literature project I'd worked on with a group of 4 other students. But your "googling" insult is well noted.

If you had any idea the depth, effort, and focus that I place on my overall work in these areas.....ah...but then Kim is an Academic Extraordinaire....a supercilious Armchair Socrates sitting in his proverbial E-Z Chair dishing out overwhelmingly brilliant gems of wisdom to the internet peasants.

Ah to be back in 1968 when research was earned!

Ahh...yes and the pot ran like water, yes?

My reply will be in other threads, probably drawing from several sources from research done years ago...and likely not in response to you. As I said in another thread - I'm through with you and your pompous, spiteful barbs.

Another thread will be an interview with a UFO investigator from the 80's who had some personal experiences which many in the field of the paranormal can likely learn from. Pretty sure I won't be doing the interview using Google...but hey...I'm sure you will attempt to belittle that work as well. It's what you do best.

Just a few pieces of evidence that the New Testament are virtually the same today as when they were first written come from the following sources:

(1) The John Rylands Papyrus
(2) The Magdalen Papyrus
(3) The Minuscule texts
(4) The Uncial documents
(5) The Lectionaries
(6) The early Codex Sinaiticus - New & Old Testaments
(7) The Patristic Writings that contain quotes to New and Old Testaments

Documents that date less than a single lifetime after the death of Christ confirm the accuracy and authenticity of the New and Old Testaments.

However, first things first - we need to decide how to move forward in a constructive way, in this area, while this hornet flies around looking for someone to sting.

-Ry

[ryguy]

I made the point a while back that Yeshua was not a Christian. Of course Ryan accused me of idiocy for that remark. hahahaha

As usual - that is a gross misrepresentation of the context of that thread, the content of my entire reply, and the overall discussion.

Keep it up. I dare you.