Angels, Demons and the Spirit World

A spiritual perspective on phenomenon

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Angels, Demons and the Spirit World

Postby ScaRZ » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:28 pm

Something really amazes me and that's how many professing Christians refuse to believe in angels,evil spirits,unclean spirits,devils,demons and a spirit world. Many consider them nothing more than superstitions or myths from a distant past. The Bible tells a much different story if one really chooses to read the words written.

If one doesn't take the spirit side of the Bible as fact then how can we take the other as fact? You can't pick and choose or turn a blind eye and deaf hear to the fact that it's a huge part of the Bible. One must always remember,Angels don't all stand on God's side.If an Angel or spirit attempts to teach, be very leery, Angels are messengers.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


In the King James version of the Bible the words Angel,Angels or Angel's are mentioned many times and that leaves out all the other words that refer to Angels.

Angel occurs 201 times in 192 verses.
Angels occurs 94 times in 92 verses
Angel's occurs 2 times in 2 verses

The word demon is not found in the King James version of the Bible but the words,evil spirit,evil spirits,unclean spirit,unclean spirits,unclean devil and devils are.

Evil spirit occurs 10 times in 9 verses
Evil spirits occurs 4 times in 4 verses
Unclean spirit occurs 11 times in 11 verses
Unclean devil occurs 1 time in 1 verse
Unclean spirits occurs 10 times in 10 verses
Devils occurs 55 times in 48 verses
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:45 am

John Keel...Ufologist and author of Operation Trojan Horse writes on pages 216 and 217:

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Trojan- ... 577&sr=8-1


Throughout most of history, the manifestations of demonology and demonopathy have been viewed from a religious perspective and explained as the work of the Devil.The bizarre manipulation and ill effects described in the demonological literature are usually regarded as the results of a great unseen conflict between God and the Devil. In UFO lore, the same conflict has been observed and the believers have explained it as a space war between the "Guardians" (good guys from outer space), who are protecting our planet, and some evil extraterrestrial race. The manifestations are the same, only the referenceis different.

Did ancient man misinterpret UFO manifestations by placing them in religious context? Apparently not.The literature indicates that the phenomenon carefully cultivated the religious frame of reference in early times, just as the modern manifestations have carefully supported the extraterrestrial frame of reference. OperationTrojan Horse is merely the same old game in a new, updated guise. The Devil's emissaries of yesteryear have been replaced by mysterious "men in black." The quasi-angels of Biblical times have become magnificent spacemen. The demons, devils, and false angels were recognized as liars and plunderers by early man. The same imposters now appear as long-haired Venusians.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:02 am

So am I suppose to believe the center of the earth is a place called hell too? I am of the opinion that people back then described things to their ability. And their ability was far less then ours today which is almost nothing.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:48 pm

Hey IPF - I think that's an excellent point, and agrees with Scarz' post above. People back then may have interpreted what they were seeing within the context of their cultural and religious beliefs - hence these entities were identified within that ideology.

Today we have a culture centered around technology - I'm not sure when the Alien enigma really started in our culture, I think maybe in the 50's with the rise of the Sci-Fi craze, or maybe even since our society became industrialized...and so some of those who experienced these "contacts" with supernatural entities now describe them as completely different kinds of mystical experiences...now no longer so "mystical".

Tim Swartz wrote a great article titled An Alien Agenda? in UFO Digest. I highly suggest this article as a preliminary read before diving deeply into some of what Scarz is presenting here. I think Scarz has been studying this area for a long time, and his writings here are part of a long-time analysis of this field (UFOlogy) from an "outside" perspective. In that he is not an experiencer or a contactee - he approached the subject without assuming the entities are extraterrestrial aliens, subterrainean creatures, collective consciousness, or spirits. But drawing from this Theology background the analysis he presents here is a perspective that these contacts have, in fact, been occurring all throughout human history - but have been reported differently throughout history and different by various cultures. However they continue to present to the human race the same core "messages" wrapped up in contemporary issues.

As a preliminary "catch-up" here, Tim writes in the article above:

Strange entities are also not new to mankind's history. Many such beings in the past have claimed to be from the heavens. Since the earliest times, mankind has felt that there must exist a mind superior to his own. Until now, Man has always thought of supreme beings in a religious context. That is why until the industrial revolution, sightings of UFOs and contacts with strange creatures were thought of as mystical experiences.

With Science as the new religion, the former "Gods" and "Angels" have now turned into the "ET's" and "Grays." In fifty years we have witnessed the birth of a new religion, the church of interplanetary visitors. As with other religions, proof is not needed, only faith. What is it that has converted so many to the extraterrestrial dogma?



Emanuel Swedenborg once wrote: "when spirits begin to speak with man you should not listen to anything they say, for surely they will lie." Perhaps our friends from the Flying Saucers are kin to the spirits that Swedenborg wrote of. "They tell such wondrous tales."

What are we dealing with then? The UFO phenomenon does seem to be controlled; it does follow intelligent patterns. But the information given to us by the ufonauts is generally false, and is, perhaps, a deliberate smoke screen to cover-up what really is going on. Whatever the UFOs are up to, they are doing it on a world wide scale. And it's inevitable that they should from time to time come in contact with some of us. When such contacts do occur, they deliberately hand out ridiculous information. Our belief systems are exploited. This whole mystery has been designed not only to keep us confused and skeptical, but to convince us that we are hosts to visitors from other planets. Someone is very interested in keeping this idea alive.

Starting in the 1970's and continuing through the 90's, the "Alien Abduction" story appears to be a recent development in the ever growing UFO mystery. Research has shown however, that this story has roots extending as far back as writings in ancient sumerian texts, to the books of the Bible. For years, people saying they've been snatched up by non-human entities has not been an uncommon occurrence. Perhaps one of the best researched incidents is the alleged abduction by aliens of Betty and Barney Hill. Their story is covered in the excellent book, THE INTERRUPTED JOURNEY by John Fuller. The Hill's experience would serve as a template as others over the years would report similar abductions.


In his fantastic conclusion - I think we should take his advice seriously here. He suggests not only looking at this phenomenon within the timeframe of the last 50 years, but beyond that. Finding common patterns through that kind of analysis may help us to understand the true source of this phenomenon, the true intention of these entities, and the real beliefs and motives behind modern-day UFO groups and followers.

However, there is a genuine UFO phenomenon. Years of research with thousands of witnesses over the years have convinced me of this fact. This phenomenon is not explained though by the revelations of alleged government agents. Nor by such UFO cult groups as Heavens Gate. The genuine UFO phenomenon appears to be associated with a form of non-human consciousness that manipulates space/time in ways we do not understand. Most researchers though, still cling to the notion that any non-human form of conscious must be from outer space.

The simple truth is if there is a form of life and consciousness that operates on properties of space/time we have not yet discovered, then it doesn't have to be extraterrestrial. It could come from any place and from any time, even our own world. Past encounters with strange entities seem to show an almost personal connection with the witness. Personal beliefs of the witness appear to be known and exploited by the contacting beings. Before anyone had even heard of other planets we believed in fairies and sprites. We still have records of people who claimed encounters with these creatures, much like modern UFO encounters. Today we don't believe in the wee folk. Yet the same basic phenomenon still occurs. It has just been dressed in more modern, space-aged clothes.

It is easy to speculate, everyone has their favorite theory. However, instead of letting personal theory control investigations, researchers instead need to listen to what is being said by the witnesses. Offer no explanations, because the phenomenon seems to conform to the participants expectations. Look at the evidence that has been gathered over the last one thousand years, not just the last fifty. What is being seen? What has been said? What is the real evidence that is being presented to us? Only through knowledge will we begin to understand the enduring mysteries in our skies.


One of the earliest historical records we can use are the ancient writings that describe the same sort of "beings" offering the same sort of messages that these "beings" continue to feed us, the human race, even to this day.

If we can ascertain their true nature - we might be better able to find a way to help people respond to the phenomenon that allows them to take back control of their lives, instead of the phenomenon maintaining control over them.

Cheers,
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:18 pm

Tim Swartz wrote: In fifty years we have witnessed the birth of a new religion, the church of interplanetary visitors. As with other religions, proof is not needed, only faith.


Exopolitics, anyone?

ryguy wrote:
Tim Swartz wrote:
Starting in the 1970's and continuing through the 90's, the "Alien Abduction" story appears to be a recent development in the ever growing UFO mystery. Research has shown however, that this story has roots extending as far back as writings in ancient sumerian texts, to the books of the Bible. For years, people saying they've been snatched up by non-human entities has not been an uncommon occurrence. Perhaps one of the best researched incidents is the alleged abduction by aliens of Betty and Barney Hill. Their story is covered in the excellent book, THE INTERRUPTED JOURNEY by John Fuller. The Hill's experience would serve as a template as others over the years would report similar abductions.


In his fantastic conclusion - I think we should take his advice seriously here. He suggests not only looking at this phenomenon within the timeframe of the last 50 years, but beyond that. Finding common patterns through that kind of analysis may help us to understand the true source of this phenomenon, the true intention of these entities, and the real beliefs and motives behind modern-day UFO groups and followers.


Was Jonah actually swallowed-up into the belly of a whale? Or is the term "great fish" (the most closely translated Hebrew) simply the best words they could use to describe the "vessel"? I'm not saying it has to be interpreted this way, but only that it could fit.


ryguy wrote:One of the earliest historical records we can use are the ancient writings that describe the same sort of "beings" offering the same sort of messages that these "beings" continue to feed us, the human race, even to this day.

If we can ascertain their true nature - we might be better able to find a way to help people respond to the phenomenon that allows them to take back control of their lives, instead of the phenomenon maintaining control over them.


Agreed. But it would be useless to try and describe them in the same mystical, mysterious, and essentially non-explanatory terms wielded by Dan Smith and others. We must utilize the science that we know, and quantify new science that we need (and can properly vet) to do the describing. I maintain that the Systems Sciences and Systems Theory (ST) come closest to what is required. Not to mention that ST embraces the basics of the dialectic, and the "thesis, antithesis, synthesis" triad that Toon has discussed. I have previously shown how this is true when you examine the "trinity of domains" that any system can be described within... "Three Beings, One God?" 8)

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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:41 pm

Angels [Spirit creations,ET] can take on many different forms and this is where most people get lost. There are also different types of Angels and in most peoples minds we see what we've been taught or have seen of them in paintings and artwork.

I also believe there are different rankings or levels of Angels[Spirit creations,ET]. They never were and never will be all on the same level. They each have a different job and take on differing appearances. The word Angel basically puts them all in one big basket and doesn't give them justice as it should.

Just as there are no two people,animal,fowl,creeping thing,plant life or sea life 100% a perfect match, so I believe it is with the Angels[Spirit Creations,ET]. If we learn anything from God in his creation, it's God loves diversity. You take away diversity and the fingerprint of God is removed and a product assembly line is all that remains.

The Angels of 2 Peter had to be the ones who came and mixed with women because they are reserved until judgment and locked away. They could not be of the whole amount that decided to follow Satan.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell[Tartarus], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I believe they will be used by God in the later days when they are released from their prison the Abyss. In Revelation Chapter 9
we see this when a star[Angel] falls from heaven to earth and has the key to open the bottomless pit[Abyss]. Those Angels and some evil spirits[demons] will then be free to be part of the final judgment.

Rev 9:1-2
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


I believe that the Gospel of Luke points to this very Abyss where the evil spirits[Demons] pleaded with Jesus not to be imprisoned
when he was casting them out. Angels and demons[evil spirits,unclean spirits,devils] want no part of the abyss.

Luke 8:29-31
For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

Jesus asked him, saying, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," because many demons had entered him.

And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:49 pm

In Chapter 9 of the Book of Enoch we see where Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Suryal, and Uriel, looked down from heaven and see all the evil that the mixing of Angel and women have caused.

3And now to you, O you holy one of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with the Most High. Then they said to their Lord, the King, You are Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings. The throne of your glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is your name sanctified and glorified. You are blessed and glorified.

4You have made all things; you possess power over all things; and all things are open and manifest before you. You behold all things, and nothing can be concealed from you.

5You have seen what Azazyel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon earth, and has disclosed to the world all the [SECRET things which are done in the heavens.]

6Samyaza also has taught sorcery, to whom you have given authority over those who are associated with him. They have gone together to the daughters of men; have lain with them; have become polluted;

7And have discovered crimes("revealed these sins")to them.

In Chapter 10 of the Book of Enoch we see that God is going to send the flood upon the earth to destroy all the evil that has come from the Angels that have been mixing with women and teaching SECRETS.

11All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every SECRET, by which the Watchers(Angels) have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring.

12All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

13To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs.


If we go back now to the 8th Chapter of the Book of Enoch we will see many of the SECRETS that Azazyel and the other Angels(Watchers) were teaching their offspring and man.

1Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.

2Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and they transgressed and corrupted all their ways.

3Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots:

4Armers taught the solution of sorcery;

5Barkayal taught the observers of the stars,

6Akibeel taught signs;

7Tamiel taught astronomy;

8And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon,


In Chapter 19 of the Book of Enoch we see how the Angels(Watchers) who came to earth and mixed with women can take on MANY FORMS. This chapter really gives us something to think about with the forms they took on and how they may or will take on again.

1Then Uriel said, Here the angels, who cohabited with women, appointed their leaders;

2And being numerous in appearance( "assuming many forms") made men profane, and caused them to err; so that they sacrificed to devils as to gods. For in the great day there shall be a judgment, with which they shall be judged, until they are consumed; and their wives also shall be judged, who led astray the angels of heaven that they might salute them..

3And I, Enoch, I alone saw the likeness of the end of all things. Nor did any human being see it, as I saw it.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Agreed. But it would be useless to try and describe them in the same mystical, mysterious, and essentially non-explanatory terms wielded by Dan Smith and others.


That's true - at least we need to develop testable hypothesis, and the usual ranking system for plausibility, in order to use the ST to test and retest those ideas. The non-explanatory ideas are intentionally made so that they can not be tested or confirmed - they typically skip the hypothesis process and jump to conclusion. But considering the anti-science lean of Dan's belief-system, that kind of makes sense that that would be his approach. But if we're going to get some success in identifying the most likely source of the phenomenon, I agree with you that the scientific approach needs to be followed - and I further agree that the ST model is the ideal tool to do that.

Vallee has done a great deal of writing regarding the phenomenon and we can draw a great deal from his analysis of the nature of the phenomenon. It is, in all respects, a control system - and one that can be tested.

We must utilize the science that we know, and quantify new science that we need (and can properly vet) to do the describing. I maintain that the Systems Sciences and Systems Theory (ST) come closest to what is required.


Agreed...although I generally use the Systems Theory as a tool for testing and coming up with a definition (or set of formulas) that define a system - in the case of such phenomenon it will be difficult (but not impossible). With enough research, I believe a great deal of ancient text and contemporary writing give us a good model to at least generate a few strong hypothesis.

The text Scarz is working on outlining presents one hypothesis that the source of the phenomenon are, in a sense, multi-dimensional entities that have become known as "angels" or "demons" - though those terms do little to describe the kind of entities these things are. The hypothesis, I believe, states that they are behind most of the abductions, contacts, ufo-sightings, and other phenomenon that are described as surreal or ethereal in nature. This hypothesis doesn't claim that real beings from other planets don't exist, but it seeks to explain the supernatural phenomenon that surround many of these cases. It also seeks to define the source of very real "powers" such as clairvoyance and other PSI phenomenon.

Alongside that hypothesis - there is a second one that seeks to explain the same phenomenon in terms of a collective-consciousness - the source being purely human. These two hypothesis, in my mind, are the top two in terms of probability - given the supernatural, ethereal quality of most interactions with so-called "aliens".

My personal take is that the first, the one Scarz describes, is the highest probability - only because I believe this "energy", which cannot be created or destroyed, existed on this earth long before we were much more than single-cell organisms. I don't believe we are the source.

In this thread hopefully we can explore the first hypothesis. However I think it would be fascinating to explore the second in a new thread. I know several members of this forum who believe that the second one one has the highest probability. It would be fascinating to compare the specifics of known cases and see what aspects of those cases fit in with each hypothesis.

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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:33 pm

I find it very telling that many in the UFO community close their minds to a Biblical, religious or spiritual side to ET, but turn around and accuse mankind of having closed minds.
I'm also a Christian who believes we never were alone and never will be. God's HOST of heaven were created before we (Man) came into the picture.

Many believe we are now part of something new that has never been seen before, and that is nothing but a blanket of untruths. As we have heard many times in our lives.....History repeats itself. Nothing is new, it is only a copy of something.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10

The thing that HATH BEEN, it [is that] which SHALL BE; and that which IS DONE [is] that which SHALL BE DONE: and [there is] NO NEW [thing] under the sun.

Is there [any] thing whereof IT may be said, See, this [is] NEW? it hath been ALREADY OF OLD TIME, which was BEFORE US.

Host... in Genesis 2:1 in Strong's Concordance 06635 is defined....
1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host
a) army, host
1) host (of organised army)
2) host (of angels)
3) of sun, moon, and stars
4) of whole creation
b) war, warfare, service, go out to war
c) service

Most want to say that the host of heaven are just the planets, sun, moon, stars,... celestial bodies, or to the cosmos in general. The word or words...host...host of heaven...heavenly host...and Lord of host...take on a different meaning and are not always pointing to the same thing. Many times it points to God's whole creation......EVERYTHING in the heavens.

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, [even] thou, [art] LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their HOST, the earth, and all [things] that [are] therein, the seas, and all that [is] therein, and thou preservest them all; and the HOST of heaven worshippeth thee.

In other places we can see that the host of heaven is referring to something other than celestial bodies.

1Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the HOST of heaven STANDING by him on his right hand and on his left.

Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly HOST praising God, and saying,
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:38 pm

This was the beginning of the mixing of the Sons Of God (Angelic,E.T.,Spirit creations) with the seed of Man (Woman).
This is where their offspring the {Giants,Nephillim} first come into the picture.

The Watchers (Angels) were to do just that "watch" over mankind. I see some really were watching the women a little too closely and began to desire them.

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,


Gen 6:2 That the sons of God {Angelic,E.T.,Spirit creations} saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:4 There were giants {Nephillim} in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown {Nephillim}.


In the Book of Enoch we can see the same thing.

Enoch 7:1-2

1It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.

2And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

Enoch 7:10-11

10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

11And the women conceiving brought forth giants{Nephillim or Naphelim}.



Enoch 15:2-7

2Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever, and have lain with women; have defile yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring?{Giants,Nephillim}


3You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.

4These however die and perish.

5Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth.

6But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.

7Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:43 pm

Even the Genesis Apocryphon that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls has something to say on the subject.
Lamech is very worried that his wife Bathenosh had become pregnant by one of the Watchers (Angels) who he already knows have descended from heaven and have been mating with the daughters of men.

The Genesis Apocryphon says:

behold I thought then without my heart that conception was due to the watchers and the holy ones and to the giants, (Nephilim) and my heart was troubled within me because of this trial. Then I, Lamech approached Bathenosh my wife in haste and said to her, ‘... by the Most High, the Great Lord, the King of all the world and Ruler of the Sons of Heaven, until you tell me all things truthfully, if ... Tell me [this truthfully] and not falsely... by the King of all the worlds until you tell me truthfully and not falsely.’ Then Bathenosh my wife spoke to me with much heat [and] ... said ‘O my brother, oh my lord, remember my pleasure ... the lying together and my soul within its body. [And I tell you] all things truthfully. ...

... Then she mastered her anger and spoke to me saying: oh my lord and my brother, remember my pleasure, I swear to you by the Holy Great One the King of the heavens, that this seed it yours and this conception is from you, whose spirit was planted by you and by no stranger or watcher or son of heaven.


Methuselah (The oldest man who ever lived) was Lamech's father, Enoch was Methuselah's father, and the child that Bathenosh was pregnant with would be Noah, the son of Lamech.

I just wanted everyone to see that this isn't only a thing written about in the Bible, but is in many other books that are not part of the Bible.
If you look closely you will see this to be the case in many of the other ancient cultures as well.

The Egyptian people originally migrated from the biblical land of Shin'ar, also known as the Land of the Watchers.The Egyptians called it Ta Neter--The Land of the Watchers, from which the gods came into Egypt.

In Greek mythology, the Titans were giant gods who were the offspring of Uranus (heaven) and Gaea (earth). One of the most famous of the Titans was Cronus, who killed his father. Cronus later led the Titans in a losing war against Zeus and the Olympian gods. After their defeat, the Titans were imprisoned in a section of the underworld called Tartarus (The Abyss).

This same Greek mythology can be also seen in the Bible when God punishes the Watchers (Angels) for the evil they have done with the daughters of men, and also teaching man many of heavens secrets.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell (Tartarosas) and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Once again we see this same event happening in The Book of Enoch, where the imprisonment is about to take place.

Enoch Chapter 10

6Again the Lord said to Raphael( High ranking Angel of God), Bind Azazyel(One of the first 200 Angels who fell) hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there.

7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness;

8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.

9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:11 pm

Ry,

ryguy wrote:The text Scarz is working on...


And doing a fantastic job, if I could add this thought! ;)

ryguy wrote:My personal take is that the first, the one Scarz describes, is the highest probability - only because I believe this "energy", which cannot be created or destroyed, existed on this earth long before we were much more than single-cell organisms. I don't believe we are the source.


So might the word "praeterhuman" fit what you are describing here? If so, I am right on board with you... I'd simply call it a higher system context... a supersystem! :) But that's just me...

ryguy wrote:Alongside that hypothesis - there is a second one that seeks to explain the same phenomenon in terms of a collective-consciousness - the source being purely human.

(snip)

However I think it would be fascinating to explore the second in a new thread. I know several members of this forum who believe that the second one one has the highest probability. It would be fascinating to compare the specifics of known cases and see what aspects of those cases fit in with each hypothesis.


And there are yet others who consider that these two hypothesi could potentially be reconciled into a single understanding. IOW, this "energy field" may not be a "closed system" per se (which is what I think the former hypothesis contemplates), but rather an "open system" in which drawing the line between what form of this energy is due to "humans" and what is due to "praeterhumans" may be difficult to establish... at least from our current level of the systemic structure.

But you are correct, and I agree, it is best for now to keep these two trains on different tracks. After we have explored both, in depth, then it may be beneficial to look at the potential for integration...

Ray
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Postby ScaRZ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:17 pm

As far as the offspring of the Watchers and women, they were called the mighty men of old, warriors of renown. If they had females as well as males I've never seen it mentioned. But one thing for sure the bloodline had to find it's way into both women and men. Who can say that cloning and tinkering with the genetics was not in the mix also?

If Watcher and mixing with women was all there was and it only produced a male offspring every time then their offspring had to also mix with women. I see a lesser degree of offspring when the Watchers were not the fathers but their sons were.

In other words, instead of one half Watcher and one half seed of man the percentage of one half pure Angel would decline each time their children mixed with the seed of man.Then on and on the bloodline would continue to drop off, but even a small percentage would still mean corruption in the genetic code. No matter how it happened they finally corrupted the bloodline or the genetics of almost all mankind.

There were different types of Nephillim[Giants,offspring of the Watchers] that turned on each other killing, eating the flesh and drinking the blood.This is mentioned in the Book of Jubilees when it names some of them.


Book of Jublilees Chapter 7

21] For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth, namely, owing to the fornication wherein the Watchers against the law of their ordinances went a whoring after the daughters of men, and took themselves wives of all which they chose: and they made the beginning of uncleanness.

22] And they begat sons the Naphidim, and they were all unlike[Not alike; different], and they devoured one another: and the Giants slew the Naphil, and the Naphil slew the Eljo, and the Eljo mankind, and one man another.

23] And every one sold himself to work iniquity and to shed much blood, and the earth was filled with iniquity.

24] And after this they sinned against the beasts and birds, and all that moves and walks on the earth: and much blood was shed on the earth, and every imagination and desire of men imagined vanity and evil continually.

25] And the Lord destroyed everything from off the face of the earth; because of the wickedness of their deeds, and because of the blood which they had shed in the midst of the earth He destroyed everything.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:28 pm

Cool offerings, Scarz!

ScaRZ wrote:Even the Genesis Apocryphon that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls has something to say on the subject.


There are many of us who have studied gnostic concepts (and even grown up Catholic) who believe the Church essentially "chopped off the head of God" when they decided to prevent any of the Apocryphal texts from being included in the Canon. Some say (and I tend to agree) that this was a political move geared towards ensuring the "sheep of their flock" would not have the deeper knowledge of heaven, and so the Church would have to act as the intermediary and interpreter thereof. It is suggested this is where the Roman-Catholic Church was first "politicized" and that its teachings since have continued to stray because of this suppression of what some believe to be "key" information.

In Greek mythology, the Titans were giant gods who were the offspring of Uranus (heaven) and Gaea (earth). One of the most famous of the Titans was Cronus, who killed his father. Cronus later led the Titans in a losing war against Zeus and the Olympian gods. After their defeat, the Titans were imprisoned in a section of the underworld called Tartarus (The Abyss).


This concept of "The Abyss" can be found in a whole host (pardon the pun) of many variations of gnostic texts, and of course is a fundamental "element" of the Qabalistic view and architecture of the integration of Mind with Matter. Interestingly enough, in the human model, The Abyss represents a vertical line across the throat wherin the sephira Daath exists. In mystical traditions The Abyss is said to represent the "veil" between the Unconscious aspects of The All and the Subconscious aspects of Man. One can hardly ignore the analogies to the Egyptian tradition of "crossing the River Styx" following one's death, or the gnostic traditions which state that the final "trial" of reaching enlightenment is to "enter and successfully cross The Abyss" before one can reach the Enlightenment of The All. Is it also possible that The Abyss represents the "firmament" between the world of Man and the world of God first established in the Genesis story of creation?

Interesting stuff to contemplate!
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Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:32 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:But you are correct, and I agree, it is best for now to keep these two trains on different tracks. After we have explored both, in depth, then it may be beneficial to look at the potential for integration...

Ray


Ray - that is actually a great point....after all if we do accept that the ancient texts contain truths, then we aren't left helpless within the system. Taking these issues seperately assumes the phenomenon is black/white, but integrating would definitely allow us to view the system as we are a part of it, making it, of course, a much more complicated system. But I suppose we shouldn't expect any less - just look at the complexity inherent throughout nature. Whatever the source, or sources, of the energy are may be debateable, but I agree 100% - that we are an important part of the system is certain.

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