The Definitive ExoPo Propaganda-Buster Thread!

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The Definitive ExoPo Propaganda-Buster Thread!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:49 am

The Time Has Come!

For quite awhile now, I have given Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd the benefit of the doubt as a "nice guy", even despite his clearly vacuous use of language when it comes to science AND the fact that one should realize a lawyers allegiance is not to the truth, but to their cause. But now that I have read Alfie's latest tome entitled "Exopolitics: A New Way to Understand Extraterrestrials" I have decided it is time to turn a critial eye to this man and his thinly veiled, and decidedly empty propaganda and mischaracterization of science! I hope David Griffin is reading, and I hope he enjoys reading my rebuttal as much as I have enjoyed preparing it. :) Fasten your seatbelts folks, this is going to be one wild ride! ;) His "report" begins:

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:The scientific canon of 20th century science held that all intelligent life ends at Earth's geostationary orbit.


How appropriate that Alfie starts out his article with a statement that is patently false and totally and blatantly mischaracterizes what science and the scientific method is all about! One must remember that a lawyer's opening arguments do not have to directly be supported by the facts. Clearly any idiot knows that science is NOT about "stating what is NOT true". Rather, science is about stating theories of what is LIKELY true based on a preponderance of evidence and analysis. I challenge Alfie to show me precisely where the "priests of science" stated the "commandment" that all people must believe that intelligent life ends at Earth's geostationary orbit! He will fail, for no scientist speaks this way. Do we have evidence for intelligent life elsewhere? Not that we know of, but this does not mean it does not exist. We have gotten off to quite a great start, haven't we? It gets better...

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:The penalty for any professional not toeing this scientific line was probable loss of professional status and potential harassment by government authorities.


Again the lawyer bends the truth and appeals to your emotional mind to "join his revolution". He is wrong. Such penalties are levied for making outrageous claims that such life actually exists without providing evidence AND analysis that can be examined and critique by a group of his peers. Quite the opposite from the pablum he wishes to feed you with this statement!

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:However, one bright spot marks the beginning of change in official terrestrial attitudes toward other species of intelligent life. In 1978, the UN General Assembly approved a revolutionary decision, inviting "interested member states to take appropriate steps to coordinate on a national level scientific research and investigation into extraterrestrial life."

In 2007, countries are now making public formerly secret information about their records of extraterrestrial craft visiting Earth. The big question is: Why now?


Yawn. Maybe to give you something to propagandize about?

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:According to a 2002 Roper poll, most Americans appear comfortable with and even excited about the thought of the discovery of extraterrestrial life:

67% believe in the existence of intelligent life in the universe.
48% believe that intelligent off-planet cultures are now visiting Earth.
72% believe the U.S. government is not telling all it knows about extraterrestrial craft visiting Earth.
14% say they have had a close encounter.


And most Americans could be claimed to be excited about the antics of Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. That does not mean such things have an eminently large impact on our future. For all his disparaging remarks about science at the beginning of his article, does he think that "good science" is performed by polling people to see what they believe??? Honestly, the logic here is vacuous.

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:For details on the poll, which was prepared for the Sci Fi Channel, visit www.scifi.com/ufo/roper .


SciFi Channel. Need I say more? :lol:

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:On March 22, the French Space Agency announced it was making public its secret files on possible extraterrestrial sightings. The New Scientist reported that among the 1,600 cases registered since 1954, nearly 25 percent are classified as "type D," meaning that despite good or very good data and credible witnesses, experts have been confronted with something they can't explain.


And the French, who surrendured to the Germans (twice!) are held-up as a shining example to be emulated??? This is a comedic piece, right?

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:On May 2, the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defense announced it was releasing up to 7,200 secret extraterrestrial sightings files going back to 1967, collected by DI55, a secret unit within the ministry. Other countries, including Brazil, Mexico, Peru and Chile also have released classified extraterrestrial reports.


Well, I have to admit that releasing data is good. But I have yet to see any reports of earth-shattering finds in any of these... anyone else hear of anything?

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:Since 2000, former government officials also have given public evidence to the presence of extraterrestrial civilizations on Earth. In 2001, more than 100 high-level governmental, political and military-intelligence witnesses gave testimonies to the presence of extraterrestrial civilizations during a Disclosure Project press conference in Washington, DC.


Which went over with a collective yawn. Certainly Dr. Steven Greer is not a publicity-seeking wonk, is he???? Please tell me it ain't so!

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:In 2005, Hon. Paul Hellyer, former Minister of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, declared that "UFOs are as real as the planes over your head." Hellyer also states he would like "to see what (extraterrestrial) technology there might be that could eliminate the burning of fossil fuels within a generation ... that could be a way to save our planet."


A career politician or political appointee just doesn't seem (to me) to carry the weight of someone who rigorously applies the scientific method. But oh yes, Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd doesn't like science and the scientific method! That's right!

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:After the tenth anniversary of the Phoenix Lights, former Arizona governor Fyfe Symington admitted on national television that he had witnessed a two-mile wide extraterrestrial spacecraft, sighted by over 10,000 witnesses as it glided silently over Phoenix in 1997.


And the implication (once again) is that because he is a public/political figure that he should be believed more than any other "eye witness"? When in reality, we know that politicians are more predisposed to lying than the average person.

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:Exopolitics: A New Vision of the Universe
Intelligent life exists beyond Earth's orbit. We are part of a populated cosmos and our neighbors are reaching out to us at this time.


I'm a lawyer... I know these things are true! Don't bother asking for evidence!

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:Exopolitics is the new political science of outer space, and is [b]the science]/b] of relations between our human civilization and advanced civilizations in the universe.


NOW he invokes science! For HIS cause! But what is interesting is that he does not (and can not) cite how HIS form of science will be different than the accepted scientific method, which he has already called into question above! This is positively childlike!

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:The Exopolitics model holds that we live in a highly populated universe, filled with intelligent, evolving civilizations operating under universal law, with governance systems and mediated by universe politics. We on Earth are just becoming aware that we live in a populated universe.


Again, this is just our "we wish it is this way" model. Don't ask for any substantive evidence... cuz we can't give it. But we will throw plenty of empty catch phrases at you that we have no idea what they mean from a technical standpoint! (Remember the "positive feedback" faux pas?)

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:According to Thomas Kuhn, author of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, scientific revolutions happen through paradigm shifts, in sea-changes about the way humanity chooses to see its reality. No amount of scientific data will change any individual's mind about life beyond Earth, and how it's filled with diverse advanced civilizations seeking to engage us now. Each person has to want to change his or her own mind, on the basis of available data and context.


I see...so the "new scientific revolution" is really just all about what YOU, the individual decide? No need to compare notes to others who might have different data? Just find your own personal "messiah" and follow him if what he says sounds good? Sounds a bit like what Charles Manson was selling to members of his "family". :shock:

Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd wrote:The Exopolitics scientific revolution is interactive and participatory. The more we interact and consciously participate with advanced, ethical extraterrestrial societies that are reaching out to us at this time, the faster our reality paradigm may shift.


Nice buzzwords. And "we" have decided they are "ethical", have "we"? Isn't that exactly what the Aztecs did with Cortez???? Didn't seem to work out too well for them, now did it? But thanks for telling us what it's all about Alfie. My respect for you has now reached a new low! :P

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Postby wetsystems » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:51 am

Ray, I couldn't agree more with you on Webre. The guy is an arrogant fraud and a follower of Billy Meier. Thanks for resurrecting this line of inquiry here.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:17 pm

Agreed, great post Ray.

The interview conducted by our former admin offers a fascinating insight into Webre's viewpoint on many subjects. Quite an eye-opener, if you ask me.

"There ARE underground bases on Mars"... Ok then!

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Postby wetsystems » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:59 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:Agreed, great post Ray.

The interview conducted by our former admin offers a fascinating insight into Webre's viewpoint on many subjects. Quite an eye-opener, if you ask me.

"There ARE underground bases on Mars"... Ok then!

Cheers,
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Would that she had followed up on that absurd statement.
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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:31 pm

Hi Ray - yes I saw this when you posted it. Great piece of deconstruction... I've viewed it purely in the postmodern, ironic style that I now overlay on nearly all posts in this section. It gives a twist of humour to my days.

You really need to remove the Exopolitics topic section from this forum - it just doesn't fit into the way the minds of 97% of posters [I mean regulars really - no-one new seems to last, you scare them off and they complain to Victors' list or OM!] process data here.

Alfred's
vacuous use of language
? Really? The guy has researched and been an activist in more areas than all of the RU moderators will in numerous terrestrial incarnations. Is this the same person we're talking about? Alfred was hounded from the USA by GWB's henchmen in the post-Carter era after trying to support an SRI study. He was the last to back down. More metal than fighting battles behind a computer screen I reckon. You should give credit where it's due even if you don't quite buy into the main thrust of what he is saying.

Just to pick one item up - please show me definitive proof that NO bases on Mars exist. We're back to the proverbial 'latrine from the saucer'.

...it just goes round. Welcome to unenlightened UFOlogy

:)


How appropriate that Alfie starts out his article with a statement that is patently false and totally and blatantly mischaracterizes what science and the scientific method is all about!


You've missed out a crucial word Ray... he used the term canon. This implies the accepted, dominant view of science and of course he is right. I was taught nothing about off-planet life at school or college and I bet that goes for all of us.
Last edited by David Griffin on Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:43 pm

wetsystems wrote:Ray, I couldn't agree more with you on Webre. The guy is an arrogant fraud and a follower of Billy Meier. Thanks for resurrecting this line of inquiry here.


Fickle or what?

A year ago this site was hounding A.L.W. for an interview and took the trouble to arrange one in his home town in Canada. This was then publicised like crazy utilising the ATS crew and bandwidth.

How could you all be so wrong, in such a short space of time? I'd say there were other agendas at work if I were the paranoid sort but I think we'll just stick with 'profoundly bad judgement' and leave it at that.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:01 pm

David Griffin wrote:Just to pick one item up - please show me definitive proof that NO bases on Mars exist.


That pretty much says it all for you, David. A request to prove a negative is a good example of someone who is not terribly familiar with science and the scientific method. Should I also prove to you that you do NOT have cancer? Maybe YOU should prove that there are NO Susan B. Anthony silver dollars lying on the floor of the Marianas Trench? Should we tackle Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:15 pm

But Exopolitics is by it's nature a kind of 'meta' lens. It' formed from an interplay of data. It incorporates a scientific model but not in the way most of you seem to think - this is laboratory study on a different scale to what we usually assign that term to.

So when Alfred says X is true he's not been to fetch the data from SETI and has it in front of him but what he has done is pull vast amounts of disparate strands of experience together and concluded that bases may well exist on Mars and we are indeed being visited by some sort of advanced intelligence.

What you have to see is that if we waited for the data to come in and confirm things in R.U. terms we would, in my opinion, not have moved very far. I'm not getting into Aristotelian logic arguments - suffice to say that all human advances and paradigm shifts began with imagination, inquiry and a degree of speculation.

When ALW talks of a 'new scientific re-evolution' he is talking about this shift in how we process and view things - the old model no longer works and certainly NEVER has in the UFO evidence field anyway!
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Postby ryguy » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:34 pm

Hi David,

I note some obvious anger in your posts - however considering that we've constantly taken you "to task" for making claims without evidence to support it, that's understandable. Just a quick note - your claim about our "regulars" overlooks the fact that according to Zep's recent analysis, we receive more traffic, more "views" and in general more readership than both OM and Victor's list.

The point you don't comprehend is that people come to RU more for input than output. We receive requests for investigative assistance often - and many times not even related to ufology or the paranormal, sometimes simply some computer forensic analysis. So your attempt to belittle RU and our cause is...for lack of a better word...lame.

That doesn't mean I hold anything against you. As I said, you weren't exactly treated with "kid gloves". So you have every right to be angry.

David Griffin wrote: A year ago this site was hounding A.L.W. for an interview and took the trouble to arrange one in his home town in Canada. This was then publicised like crazy utilising the ATS crew and bandwidth.


Hounding? Odd choice of words. What do you actually know about events? It appears very little.

The interview was decided upon when we realized much of the later part of the Serpo story contradicted the precise beliefs and mission statement of ICIS. We found that fascinating, and in our dissection of Serpo, decided to try to help give ICIS a louder voice in this area. If the effects of Serpo were to counter Exopolitics, then we though it appropriate to provide the other side of the story.

Shawnna contacted Webre for an interview and he accepted. Problems only started when Victor interfered and injected libel about us, as usual inaccurate and untrue.

Then after the interview was presented to Webre for his approval, he higly approved of it, and even contacted Jerry/Larry telling them he thought the interview was fantastic and professionally done. He wanted Pippen to distribute it. Shawnna had donated hundreds of dollars of her own money to professionally produce the interview - and here was Jerry/Larry offering RU 10% of whatever sales they made off the DVD.

Our goal was to distribute the interview for free via a web download, and a DVD if preferred for just enough to cover shipping and the production costs that Shawnna had donated. Jerry/Larry's actions and Webre's support of them was insulting and inappropriate.

Problems only started when we declined their financial offer.

How could you all be so wrong, in such a short space of time? I'd say there were other agendas at work if I were the paranoid sort but I think we'll just stick with 'profoundly bad judgement' and leave it at that.


Thanks for your premature evaluation without all of the data (is this how all exopolitics folks behave?). However since you clearly don't know the whole story - there's very little value to your judgement here.

In spite of all of that drama - I still thought Webre presented the beliefs of Exopolitics well, unfortunately most of the beliefs appear to be founded on unscientific, or in many cases non-existant evidence. Yes - we realized this after the interview, not having pre-existing information or bias about Exopolitics. The interview was a way for us (and others out there) to learn more about ICIS and exopolitics.

If attempting to talk to people in order to learn and expand ones own personal horizons is "bad judgement" - then you're in the wrong place my friend. There are other places and forums where you're welcome to cling to your pre-existing beliefs and can ignore all evidence to the contrary. This isn't one of them.

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Postby caryn » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:44 pm

David:

Then by your own admission the Exopo movement is no better than any other faith-based movement. The inherent problem of faith-based movements is that they are purely relative to the subjective standing of any given member. Nothing wrong with that if you’re advocating Exopo as a philosophical debating society. The crunch comes when presenting hypothesis as fact when there is little to no hard data to support the hypothesis.

A UFO crashed and alien bodies were retrieved….show us the UFO and the bodies – it shouldn’t be that difficult. Bases exist on Mars – show us the evidence. These are claims of material artefacts not ghostly entities.
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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:45 pm

Ry - no, never get angry. Certainly not on forums. I just think there are far better peoples character to take apart than a man with Webre's background and purpose. I find it funny how there seems to be this cult of worship for semi-faceless "intel-insiders" and the diversionary ramblings they spew forth in comparison to a guy that is honest, open and hasn't been cynicised** by so many years in this community - and he's done more years than most. So what if he takes a leap of judgement here and there - sometimes you have to to create a narrative for people to hook into. Sometimes we make memes that shed light on novel areas for the sake of engaging people. Dishonest? Well nothing on the scale of deception we see peddled each day by rogue power regimes and slimy advertising execs.... :shock:

Caryn - Science, or rather scientism is a faith and is alive and well. See you at evening mass.

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**Cynicised - to have allowed the uncertainty element of the UFOlogical field to formulate a desire to constantly disprove minutia instead of exploring wider issues. WebStars Lexicon, 2007
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Postby caryn » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:33 pm

David,

I’m not asking you to define the merits of faith. I’m asking you and your ilk to perform what should be a relatively simple task, given the alleged abundance of material - Hand over the UFO and or ET or its relevant artefacts. Unsubstantiated data is all we’ve seen to date.

There is a divide between conceptual reality and nuts and bolts evidence – you do promote the reality of the nuts and bolts element. I fail to understand why you and others can’t grasp the difference. You are placing faith in people who claim to have had access to the hard data, yet for a myriad of convenient reasons, these same people are never able to reproduce it. Why not?
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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:50 pm

First of all please put a quark or one of the other many quantum mechanical wave-icles on the table in front of me.

Most leading physicists believe these make up our universe/reality yet I can guarantee you've never held one in the palm of your hand and 'validated' that it existed according to the rules your requesting.

Show me yours I'll show you mine.
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Postby caryn » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:57 pm

David,

I claim that I am a woman – by the rules of established biological research and that of mass general consensus, I can indeed prove that I am a woman.

Are you going to try to convince me and others that biology and general consensus holds no sway?

Again – to reiterate, we are talking about claims of tangible material artefacts. I don’t think we need to invoke quarks and leptons as a matter of moot in this instance – although even there science does have something over ‘whistle-blowers’ empty testimony.
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Postby David Griffin » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:24 pm

You are also far more than that description. You're certainly not *just* your bio-bits. That'd be pretty limiting. Depends on how you want to be described and how other agents want to describe you.

The point of all this is that it matters little what you want to materialise on the table for validation, increasing numbers of people are tuning in to the hyperdimensional omega point at the end of time:

The overSoul is the saucer.
The OverMind is the mushr00m.


- as I've tried to say here with the quantum mechanics refs, *some* of this is about YOU. What do you want to have happen? It's not all sat out there waiting to be validated.

"In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the mind there are no limits." John C Lilly - Programming and metaprogramming the human bio-computer.



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