Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

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Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:48 am

This thread is intended to relay my thoughts & theories related to a systems view of how the ideas of spiritual "angels and demons" could possibly fit into an architectural view of "reality" that is based on the geometrical form of the Tree Of Life (a very old mystical glyph).

I would like to set the stage for this discussion by showing the hierarchical systems that relate to my analysis that has resulted in the thoughts I am going to share. Many who have read my earlier posts already are familiar with my proposition that the architecture of the physical human body directly corresponds to the Tree Of Life network architecture diagram. Clearly the human body is certainly an example of a highly integrated set of subsystems that interact in such a way that consciousness is one of the primary emergent phenomena of the human body system. If we now use this same Tree Of Life model as the presumptive basis for the "next higher system level" beyond our physical bodies, we can construct the following comparitive analogy between the "subsystem" of our material body and the larger (non-material) "system" which it serves:
Image<=Subsystem......Supersystem=>Image
Hopefully, this graphic depiction clearly illustrates the systemic hierarchy I am suggesting between our material bodies and our "larger selves" which are something beyond material reality. This discussion will focus primarily on the higher-level system on the right; however, it is often instructive when analyzing systems to jump back and forth between the higher level context of the larger system and the lower level context of a primary subsytem.

With respect to the concepts of "angels and demons", I am proposing that these entities "exist" at the level of the larger, non-material system labeled as "Unconscious" in the right hand diagram. Looking "thru" this collective label we see that there are three elements that comprise this level of Unconscious Being, represented by the circles with the numbers (1, 2, and 3). If we were to give these "elements" names that we wish to tie to the concepts presented by Scarz in the other thread, I would suggest we try out the following:

1 ) God
(i.e. the Overall System Control Element).
2 ) Angels
(i.e. a subordinate Creation of God, meant to "oversee" God's creations in the lower realms of existence).
3 ) Demons
(i.e. an alternate subordinate Creation of God which manifests out of necessity due to the fact that by "defining" one subordinate element, the Angel, a Creator necessarily also defines "that which is not what one has defined").

I would like to complete the non-material system model, if for no other reason that to show the coherence of the overall (3x3) matrix architecture in the non-material realm, in much the same way that the human body's physical (3x3) matrix is also an important coherent entity. We give a major nod to Sigmund Freud for identifying a "tri-partate structure" of the subconscious mind:

4 ) Superego
(i.e. the "moral" portion of our subconscious which constantly strives to achieve the perfect ideal identified with the forces "above the Abyss").
5 ) Id
(i.e. the "irrational & self-centered" portion of our subconscious which is merely interested in satisfaction of the self).
6 ) Ego
(i.e. the resulting "center of the subconscious" that seeks to balance the needs of the competing Id and Superego forces).

And now I would like to finish this post by proposing the 3 balanced elements which comprise the primary elements of our conscious mind, which necessarily deals with a metaphysical view that interprets the physical reality experienced by the body and the material elements that it interacts with:

7 ) The Concept of Matter
(i.e. that portion of the conscious mind that "bookkeeps" material objects and points in space that are assigned names. This is the "noun-processing" portion of the conscious mind).
8 ) The Concept of Motion
(i.e. that portion of the conscious mind that forms relationships between material objects and provides a means for matter to change as identified by functions. This is the "verb-processing" portion of the conscious mind).
9 ) The Operational Self
(i.e. the resulting perception of the conscious mind that associates its material body with the functions it can perform as traveling on a "timeline" which begins at birth and has an ending in physical death. The integrated center of the conscious self).

Before we focus on the elements "above the Abyss", in the next post I would like to spend some time discussing the Abyss itself, and lay out my logic for why it is the "boundary" nature of the Abyss which helps propagate the myth that the "entities" that exist above the Abyss are "disconnected" from ourselves. It is my feeling that in learning to "bridge the Abyss" we can come to understand that while we may perceive that "angels and demons" may be separate and distinct from our human selves, that in a more "integrated" form of reality (i.e. the wholeness of this larger, non-material system) those entities above the Abyss are actually part of us, and we have direct relationships to them and with them that are essential to the nature of the "overall system controller" (God).

I encourage comments, questions, and tomatoes on what I have shared so far!! :)
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Postby caryn » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:38 pm

Well done, Ray....very coherent. Looking forward to reading more.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:13 pm

Thanks Caryn,

Before I launch into a discussion of the Abyss itself, and how it separates one level of awareness from another, I thought it would be good to offer up some "interpretive evidence" for my suggestion that the "angels and demons" are the first creation of God that exist above the Abyss. The following is from the King James Version of the Bible:

(Note: Of course there are a great many interpretations and translations of the Bible, and I am choosing not to address that at this point. The point is that Genesis 1 is at least claimed to be the story of Creation. Another translation with another interesting slant on the story of Creation is the Sepher Yetzirah.)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... xt=chapter

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(the creation of angels?)

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
(the distinction from demons?)

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.


So it seems we have some suggestion that there is a "firmament" (Abyss) that separates the place of God (heaven) from the place where we (mankind) will eventually appear. We also note that the firmament divides "waters from the waters", which would appear to indicate a level of likeness between what is above and what is below the Abyss. And we further see that "above the firmament", besides God, we also see He/She/It has seen to create light and distinguish it from darkness. As I suggest above, this could well be analogic references to these spiritual beings we call "angels and demons".

Right...so let's discuss the Abyss, shall we?
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Postby dan » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:17 pm

caryn wrote:Well done, Ray....very coherent. Looking forward to reading more.


And allow me to second that.......
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Postby ryguy » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:38 am

I third it.... Thanks Ray for putting in the time to lay this out. I wanted to reply quickly tonight - I can't stay up much later tonight to give this a proper reply, but I promise I will before the week is up (I hope!).

There are a couple of things I'd like to ask clarification about , for now.

While the system of the human body, as you've presented here, can be presented as a system with God as the control system, and Angels and Demons as two sub-systems, all three of the subconscious - a very 'real' part of the human psyche...this takes God, Angels, and Demons out of the larger seperate (just as important - and in some cases more important) control systems of the world outside of us.

It may be too early for this question - but can the same be said for the "Monkey Body"....or the "Dolphin Body"....or "Dog Body"? All of those are control systems as well... Do you propose that a Dolphin or Dog don't have a subconscious? I've seen my dog dream, btw. He chases rabbits in his sleep all night... What about Trees? Flowers? Grass?

Please take these as sincere questions for clarification - not to disagree with your model. As you know, in our respective fields, the perpetual tuning of control systems makes one painfully aware of what happens when/if a particular system falls out of tune. With that said - someone outside the system needs to do the tuning. A hand from outside the control system itself needs to initially define, create, integrate, tune, test (and test and test...lol) every control system. Seeing "God" placed as the primary controller within a system tells me that you propose this particular system is self-creating and self-tuning?

-Ry
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:58 pm

Hi Ry & thanks:
ryguy wrote:While the system of the human body, as you've presented here, can be presented as a system with God as the control system, and Angels and Demons as two sub-systems, all three of the subconscious - a very 'real' part of the human psyche...this takes God, Angels, and Demons out of the larger seperate (just as important - and in some cases more important) control systems of the world outside of us.


This paragraph is a little difficult for me to interpret, so I am not sure the following will be pertinent... but maybe you are mis-interpreting what I have laid out. The human body (each human body) is a subsystem of a larger system which transcends the material. Call it "algorithmic" or process-based, if you will, and its primary element is information. Also, I am suggesting that God, angels, and demons are what comprise the "unconscious" form of this process-based form of existence. But I am not suggesting (as you say) that this model "takes God, Angels, and Demons out of the larger seperate control systems of the world outside of us". In fact, I am suggesting that this entire process-based form of existence subsumes the entirety of all material-based existence (and thus all materially-based control systems). At another web forum I used to participate in, I described it from a technical standpoint as "Information is a physical (but not material) metric that subsumes the physical metric we call energy."

Perhaps the best way to think of what I am suggesting is with the classic "system context diagram" of a bubble inside a larger bubble. The larger bubble is this process-based existence whose makeup is "raw" information, and the smaller (subsumed) bubble is our material human body (along with all other human bodies and other material control systems). Another way to think of it (in control systems terminology) would be to consider all material existence as the "inner loop" for a larger, outer-loop control system which is process-based and "powered" by information.

It may be too early for this question - but can the same be said for the "Monkey Body"....or the "Dolphin Body"....or "Dog Body"? All of those are control systems as well... Do you propose that a Dolphin or Dog don't have a subconscious? I've seen my dog dream, btw. He chases rabbits in his sleep all night... What about Trees? Flowers? Grass?


All of these are material subsystems of the larger process-based supersystem. So no, I do not propose (nor accept) that animals are sans-subconscious, only that its "information content" could very well be more primitive (smaller) than ours. Such a continuum model would also extend to those forms of life which we (currently) perhaps do not consider as "sentient" (i.e. the trees, flowers, and grass). Yet these forms of life are sentient in some measureable form, since we can see they do act as conrol systems (i.e. they respond to varying inputs). But much as animals have a lower information content for their process-based existence, so would the world of flora have a yet smaller information content to their process-based existence. And then there is the "mineral kingdom". Some might think it ridiculous to include these in this continuum of process-based existence... but even seemingly "cold, dead lumps of rock" in the asteroid belt RESPOND to external inputs (i.e. gravity of larger objects)... just in a much more predictable manner than flowers, pets, or humans. I am proposing that information is a continuum and all material elements are "part of" that information continuum, at varying levels of sophistication & complexity.

Please take these as sincere questions for clarification - not to disagree with your model.


Not even an issue, Ryan. I'm certainly not making any large claims with this. It is merely a theory which has grown out of my research into Systems Theory, AI, and the Tree Of Life. I respect and consider all respectful feedback! ;)

As you know, in our respective fields, the perpetual tuning of control systems makes one painfully aware of what happens when/if a particular system falls out of tune. With that said - someone outside the system needs to do the tuning. A hand from outside the control system itself needs to initially define, create, integrate, tune, test (and test and test...lol) every control system.


I emboldened the words above to call attention to the fact that we draw system boundaries as a convenience. As you know from boundary value problems, we establish these boundaries not because they are actually "there", but because they help us constrain the problem and thereby solve what would be an integrated mish-mash of differential and integral relations. So the major point is that there are no hard-fast boundaries, only those boundaries that we choose based on the convenience of our understanding. But I also highlight the above passage because it makes for a perfect segue into discussion of the Abyss... for the Abyss was explicitly setup to act as a "system boundary". One that, IMO, was set up for the purpose of ensuring a "feeling of separation" between our subconscious and the larger realm of the unconscious. More on that in my next post...

Seeing "God" placed as the primary controller within a system tells me that you propose this particular system is self-creating and self-tuning?


Yes, in a very similar way that the human species is "self-creating" (i.e. self-perpetuating when two subsystems work together), and as each individual human being is "self-tuning" through the actions and decisions they take in life.

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Postby ryguy » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:07 pm

Ray,

Fantastic clarification - you are correct I absolutely misinterpreted what you had laid out. My understanding was too simplistic, with the human body being in effect the entire system, or at least central - but your explanation above makes it much more clear, that you're referring to a subset of many subsystems within a larger system...if I understand correctly.

My interest then, and now I'm even more interested in this model - is what you propose to be the connective elements between the subsystems...and through which processes they interact with one another.

But I also highlight the above passage because it makes for a perfect segue into discussion of the Abyss... for the Abyss was explicitly setup to act as a "system boundary". One that, IMO, was set up for the purpose of ensuring a "feeling of separation" between our subconscious and the larger realm of the unconscious. More on that in my next post...


I'm very much looking forward to that. Thanks again Ray...and if I have any other comments I'll raise my hand first..lol...I'll try not to disrupt class too often!! :)

-Ry
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:15 pm

I'm just sharing thoughts, Ryan, and I greatly value questions (for as we see they lead to clarifications). If I were teaching a class, you can bet there would be homework and a term project! :lol:

In the other thread, Ryan wrote the following which was the genesis for this thread:

the possible integration of the biblical model we present here (where the entities are external forces from "outside" of us) and the "collective consciousness" model (where the entities are from forces "within" us). An integration of those two hypothesis, as you proposed above, might help us better understand where these energies might realistically come from?


When we consider the function of the Abyss (i.e. how it functions in the human body model, and the likely functional purpose in the larger process-based existence model), we can see how we can move from a view of "external forces outside of us" to an integrated view where the entities are "forces within us" (the larger supersystem of "us").

The Abyss appears to act as a diode (EE paradigm) or a check valve (ME paradigm) with respect to awareness. In the human body model we see that awareness takes place in our heads, which are above the body's "Abyss". The head is aware of the rest of the body, and needs to be in order to direct it to accomplish its will. But there is no "reverse flow" of awareness. The hands, the feet, the heart (everything below the Abyss) do not appear to be "aware" that the head is in control. They respond to the autonomic nervous system, as directed by the brain stem, but they are functionally isolated (in terms of awareness) from the head, and from each other. They perform their function, as intended, which keeps the head going and capable of maintaining its awareness. For all intents and purposes, if the body parts below the Abyss could "think", they might consider that the impulses they react to are from "outside" itself. If these body parts had to be aware of all the things the brain is aware of, they would scarcely have any remaining "bandwidth" to perform their primary function, right?

Now move up to the larger system model (in process-space) and we can see the same thing going on with the Abyss at this level. I used the term "unconscious" for the top triad in the model for a very good reason: Because these are forces (entities?) that we do NOT appear to be conscious of. We have come to recognize the reality of our subconscious, and we can even test its impacts on our conscious mind and our decision-making capability. But in process-space the Abyss acts as a "barrier" so that we do not become bandwidth-saturated in our subconscious and conscious minds. Much like the physical body model, if our conscious and subconscious minds had to be constantly "aware" of all that stuff going on above the Abyss, we could hardly function in the material world.

So, if we accept that this model could be true (not saying that it is, nor that there is sufficient evidence therefor), then we can see that the Abyss could be what acts to make us believe that these things we call "angels and demons" are actually forces external to us that are manipulating us, rather than an integrated view which says they are actually "part of us", but the "us" we are talking about is "the larger us".... the "us" that lives in the spiritual (process-based, information) plane of existence.

Quite a clever design, if this is really the way the non-material aspects work, huh? :wink: Now having said all of this, the connection to much of the apocryphal knowledge (esoteric, "mystical" knowledge that was specifically excluded from the Church canon) is that this Abyss is NOT an absolute barrier. It can be penetrated (with the proper conditioning of the mind) and that the ability to successfully penetrate the Abyss is what can lead to a greater, integrated awareness of the All. The communion with the angels (and yes, even the demons) and their Creator.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:52 pm

I'll get to your latest question Ryan (it is a great one!) in due time.

But for now, I would like to point out another correlation between the "subsystem/supersystem" model I have presented above, and Biblical lore. In the story of Genesis, we are told of The Tree Of Life (which Adam and Eve were permitted to partake of its fruits) and The Tree Of Knowledge of Good & Evil (Serp's home... :) the one that God forbade them from eating of).

I would now like for you to consider the storyline (and these two trees) in technical system terms and see if you can match these two trees to the system hierarchy I outline in my diagrams at the top of this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Kn ... d_and_Evil

Mankind (Adam and Eve) were permitted to eat of the Tree Of Life, which I claim is a metaphor for the "system architecture" of our material existence. Obviously, if we are the material "agents of God" then understanding this architecture would be important to us being able to use our free will to create at our material level.

But God did not wish for mankind to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I maintain that this is a metaphor for the "system architecture" for our process-based existence. It is actually the same architecture schema (geometric network), but it is at the broader (supersystem) level of context. Reasons why God would not wish us to "partake" of this could be many and varied. As a system designer myself, I could think of many such good reasons: "Functional isolation" (the systems engineering term) or "Scope limitation" (the software engineering term). Perhaps the purported reasons could be good points of discussion? But I wanted to draw this comparison because it should be obvious (given my explanations above) that if we were to "partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" then we would have to "broach the Abyss", and this would lead to us understanding that BOTH angels AND demons are active elements of what is going on "above the Abyss". The term and concept of "a necessary evil" comes to mind.

Some things to chew on... and perhaps comment upon?
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Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:31 pm

Wow Ray... this is going to take a lot of time and energy, and hopefully we can all work through the details here in a way everyone can agree with. There are several repeated themes that clearly align this model with what others have said their personal theories regarding the origin of these phenomenon are. I see much of Dan Smith's hypothesis in this - in that we are essentially "gods", capable of creation ourselves given proper enlightenment or conditioning...essentially crossing the abyss.

Forgive me for thinking in very simple terms...I'm sort of like Columbo I guess "erm...excuse me miss...I must be terribly, terribly confused, but how did you say that gun ended up in your purse again? Please use little words...I'm a little slow, you must understand..."

But at it's very core, you seem to essentially be confirming, in your post above, that your hypothesis is essentially the same as Dan's (at least at the core - not the silly messiah stuff), that the phenomenon is a product of our collective consciousness as defined by Jung. You explained above that the boundary is virtually non-existent in the process of describing the connectedness to the larger consciousness. While I think I comprehend what you're describing - your hypothesis still somewhat overlooks the clear definitions and seperation within our material world, and the boundaries that do exist in that material world. We are in fact individual people with individual bodies after all - with our own individual internal conscious and unconscious minds...

To propose that we are in fact subsystems that are part of the larger overall system - still clearly states (in simplest laymen's terms) that our individual unconscious minds are ultimately responsible for the phenomenon. And that "God" is, essentially, the collective energies of all subsystems...both a "part" of the subsystems, and at the same time "above" it - as the controller.

But the heart of this hypothesis appears to be that essentially phenomenon is a result of our collective subconscious minds.

Am I correct in drawing that conclusion?

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:06 pm

ryguy wrote:Wow Ray... this is going to take a lot of time and energy, and hopefully we can all work through the details here in a way everyone can agree with.


That might be a pretty tall order. :) But worth a try!

I see much of Dan Smith's hypothesis in this - in that we are essentially "gods", capable of creation ourselves given proper enlightenment or conditioning...essentially crossing the abyss.


Many times I have told Dan that I agree with some of the principles of his philosophy. In fact, my whole "schtick" of continually pointing him to the TOL and getting him to admit that it does, indeed, appear to be the architecture of our human material body, was to get him to look deeper into the "answers" that mystical Qabalah has been 'telling" people for many centuries. And my "problem" with him was that he wanted to throw-out materialism and science, rather than see it as PART OF THE OVERALL SYSTEM.

And as for being capable of creation ourselves... isn't that part patently obvious? We live in the age where we are on the verge of creating "artificial life" or (a term I hate, but which conveys a general meaning) "artificial intelligence". :)

But at it's very core, you seem to essentially be confirming, in your post above, that your hypothesis is essentially the same as Dan's (at least at the core - not the silly messiah stuff), that the phenomenon is a product of our collective consciousness as defined by Jung.


Definitely NOT the messiah part! :) And Dan also seems to want people to believe that our overall "supersystem" is unknowable by all... henceforth is where his need for a messiah springs from this "conditioned belief". And yes, Jung's collective conscious is part of the view (although I tend to think mystics view it as a collective UNconscious). Jung, BTW, studied Qabalah. It has shaped the works of many of our great thinkers. It is certainly a large part of the "secrets" of the "secret societies" like Masons, et. al.

While I think I comprehend what you're describing - your hypothesis still somewhat overlooks the clear definitions and seperation within our material world, and the boundaries that do exist in that material world.


How distinct are those boundaries? Speaking thermodynamically, can you point to one system in the universe that is truly (and completely) "closed", much less "far from thermal equilibrium"?

We are in fact individual people with individual bodies after all - with our own individual internal conscious and unconscious minds...


Our limited perceptions tell us this. But what of ESP-like phenomena? Are we saying there are no communication links between minds (outside of visual, aural, etc.)? In fact, this is the substance of the discussion that would tend to address your open question about the connecting links... another good segue??? 8)

To propose that we are in fact subsystems that are part of the larger overall system - still clearly states (in simplest laymen's terms) that our individual unconscious minds are ultimately responsible for the phenomenon.


I don't know if I would sign-up to "individual" minds. "No man is an island". I believe the mystical view is that the "collective unconscious" is a supreme integration of the process-based existence. The subconscious only knows "I from ~I". When you rise through the Abyss you rise above the ego-self, and you are integrated into the amalgam of the collective unconscious. At that level there IS NO "your mind" as distinguished from "my mind". There is only ONE MIND with a Trinity of aspects.... ? (proposal)

And that "God" is, essentially, the collective energies of all subsystems...both a "part" of the subsystems, and at the same time "above" it - as the controller.


Not too far at all from what the mystics say. God depends upon us just as much as we depend upon God. It is Dan's focus on the Oroborous. We are the material vehicles that help God to "observe Himself" (Herself/Itself). It is all a closed-loop system. One thing depends upon others. the "n-body problem" of celestial physics... the examples in our universe are endless.

But the heart of this hypothesis appears to be that essentially phenomenon is a result of our collective subconscious minds.

Am I correct in drawing that conclusion?


I would say it is a layered system, with distributed functional responsibilities. So I would refrain from claiming "all phenomena" are a result of only collective subconscious. The collective unconscious (per the model) is the clear driver (outermost loop). But if we can establish that there are "inter-subsystem" communication links between individual subconscious and conscious minds, then we can see that "reality" is truly a "cooperative illusion" (but a highly functional one!).

As I always maintain, this is not "my story" but merely my version of the story put to a Systems Theory beat and a scientific tempo. "There is nothing new under the sun"...only different ways to describe it. My lifelong goal has been to describe these traditions of mystical knowledge within the framework of the systems sciences. :wink:

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:40 pm

Quick follow-up:

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:I don't know if I would sign-up to "individual" minds. "No man is an island". I believe the mystical view is that the "collective unconscious" is a supreme integration of the process-based existence.


Again using the tool of "context switching" that we apply in systems engineering, we can look at the human body level of the system and ascertain that yes, indeed, the human head is the "supreme integration of the materially-based existence" we call the human body. So applying "as above, so below" (that is the context-switching) we see it should be natural for the unconscious to be the supreme integration of our larger, process-based existence.

This (context-switching) is the most important tool a systems engineer can use in not only determining the needs of a system (subsystem) but also determining and predicting its performance in the larger system that it "exists within". If we can recognize a structure or function in our human body, then the chances that it has an analagous structure or function in our "process-based existence" are quite good.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:27 am

Time to start addressing Ryan's last open question:
ryguy wrote:My interest then, and now I'm even more interested in this model - is what you propose to be the connective elements between the subsystems...and through which processes they interact with one another.


Before we even begin to discuss connections between indivdual instantiations of the Tree Of Life system (i.e. individual bodies and/or individual minds), it is probably good to spend some time looking at the 22 pathways that interconnect the nodes of the network diagram. There is more than one way to classify these 22 paths, each of which represents one of the 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet. The Sepher Yetzirah, which I mentioned before, has one such decomposition of the paths/letters into what is known as "Mother letters", "Double letters", and "Elemental letters". I will not address those (for now) but one can find plenty of information on this decomposition all over the internet.

The decomposition that I am going to present is not as well known, but it is part of the teachings of several Western Mystery Tradition schools of thought. I find it the most logical from a Systems Theory (and therefore a systemic) standpoint. And let me also point out what should be obvious from a systems standpoint: In a system there are elements which perform functions, and then there are Interfaces that bridge functions and allow them to communicate and exchange data and influences with each other. So the paths that interconnect nodes on the system model we are studying are interface channels that carry information, energy, momentum, heat, influence... etc.

Here is a diagram that color codes the decomposition of these paths into 3 distinct groups:
Image

The paths colored RED are called the paths of DEFINITION. They are so-called because, as we can see, the 3 nodes that make up any one level of the system model utilize these paths to connect the 3 nodes into a triad "processing plane". Hence, these paths help these 3 nodes comprise a definition of that level of the system. They bring coherence to the integration of the 3 nodes on each level.

The paths colored GREEN are called the paths of COMMUNICATION. They are so-called because, as we can see, these paths connect the four levels of the system model. Therefore, they can be said to foster communication between the 4 levels of the system model. Note the diverging/converging (fanning-out and fanning-in) topology of these paths. These are important aspects of communication, as they represent the abilities of exposition (taking a compact message and embellishing it, thereby providing a more rich description of the subject of the message) and concentration (taking a verbose message and concentrating it down to a summary of the highlights).

The paths colored BLUE are called the paths of INFLUENCE. They are so-called because, as we can see, they are polar in nature (i.e. they occupy opposing sides of the network model). By its very nature, an INFLUENCE is biased to one extreme or another. An INFLUENCE is typically used to disturb or perturb some system from a point of equilibrium. As you can see from the topology of these paths of INFLUENCE, they permit one level of the system to influence another level. Knowing the universal laws of action and reaction, it is not too difficult to envision that an influence that flows in one direction on one side of the tree may very well be countered by an opposing influence moving in the opposite direction on the path of influence on the opposing side of the tree.

Enough for tonight...
Ray
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:04 am

Allow me to now give some very specific (and scientifically-sound) examples for how one category of the "Network Links" identified in the above post operate between body and mind. I will start at the bottom of the tree, and describe how the facts of scientific units of measure align with the lowest "Communication" pathways on the Tree Of Life as they apply to the interface between the physical body/brain and the conscious mind. As always, it helps to start out with a diagram to set the system context:
Image

Here we see the lowest part of the TOL. We see that each of the three Communication channels between the physical matrix (body/brain) have been assigned one of the three fundamental units of measure that are universally recognized in science and engineering as comprising the totality of our macroscopic physical universe: An ACTIVE measure that we call MASS. A PASSIVE measure we call SPACE. And the NEUTRAL measure that mediates the two, TIME. In engineering, we call this "a consistent M-L-T system of fundamental units". All other macroscopic measures of our physical universe (Temperature, Momentum, Energy, Power, Pressure, Density, etc.) can all be specified as combinations of these 3 fundamental units.

What we must realize about the universe is something the diagram above implies: We must take Mass, Space, and Time as a completely integrated "set" if we are to describe our universe in the most accurate terms. In other words, our need for our mind to "separate-out" Mass from Space introduces errors which are inherent in all measurements. The "reality" of the universe is that Mass, Space, and Time all exist in an integrated manner. This is what I call the Integrated Matrix of Massive SpaceTime. Therefore, in accordance with the information theories of Shannon (et. al.) the Communication channels we call "Mass, Space, and Time" in the above diagram are precisely "lossy communication channels" just as Shannon describes them. These paths are NOT to be construed as "actual" Mass, Space, or Time... but rather these channels carry INFORMATION about Mass, Space, and Time up to the first level of our process-based existence... our conscious mind.

We also see at the top of the diagram that we have defined the names of the 3 processes that are operating in our conscious minds, namely: MATTER, MOTION, and TENSE. These are the PERCEPTIONS that our mind processes form that allow us to understand the information coming from the Massive SpaceTime matrix, through the "lossy" channels of Mass, Space, and Time. The conscious mind forms these "ideas" of Matter, Motion, and Tense by combining information from the Mass, Space, and Time channels in very specific (and mathematically-quantifiable) ways. I will not bore folks with the calculus details, but rather explain it as follows:

MATTER is a concept that is formed in the conscious mind via differential measurements of Mass and Time.
(To use calculus notation - dM/dT)

MOTION is a concept that is formed in the conscious mind via differential measurements of Space and Time.
(dS/dT)

TENSE is a concept that is formed in the conscious mind via differential measurements of Mass and Space.
(dM/dS)

At its most fundamental system level, what we have here is a relative model that describes the process-based foundation of all conscious minds.

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Postby ryguy » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:00 pm

Carrying this discussion over from the other thread:

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Now I realize that not many people will "get" this analogy, but I am positive you will. And this analogy takes place in the complex plane where we perform stability assessments of any operating system. If we classify "evil" as a destructive force... one that seeks to pull-apart the creations of God that are "working to do good", then we can clearly see that gross instabilities (i.e. having system poles in the right-half complex plane) are destructive. As you have pointed out, unstable minds are the ones that have "turned to evil". But when we look at the opposite extreme (poles that are very deep on the left-hand complex plane) we see sloth, lethargy, and generally unresponsiveness.


Definitely...excellent analogy! However - I see the balancing act only *slightly* differently...although it does seem that at least we are on the same road - albeit maybe on different sides of the street... :)

Here's how I see the balancing act you describe above - If we define God as Energy - then everything exists due to this energy, or "light". First there was darkness, then there was "light"...step one. All of creation was born of this light, which came from the infinite or eternal source. "Lack" of energy - results in darkness and cold.

In control system terms - apply more energy: temperature rises...this measured temperature comes back to the controller as feedback (obviously in a closed loop system which are the ones we seek to "tune" or "balance"). Too much energy all at once can be catastrophic - so balance requires the controller turn back the energy level temporarily. This "lack of energy" results in a slower rise...but overall the perfect balanced system rises to the goal of the setpoint through "injecting" impulses of energy slowly and gradually.

In other words - a balanced system seeking to rise to a higher level must temporarily "unbalance" itself in order to seek a higher setpoint. This unbalance requires more "light" or "energy". A balanced system that removes energy will sink to lower setpoints. This might also be a "controlled" decline in a system where those lower setpoints perceived as preferable...however they still represent lower temperature, lower energy states of existence. In fact - a system that is at a higher state and doesn't constantly "nurture" that state through occasional impulses of energy will naturally sink down to lower states. These are states that are further from the ultimate source of that energy.

Now - in either direction, downward or upward, an unbalanced system is, as you know, the worse case regardless of direction. Using the example of a climb to a higher setpoint, if the control system attempts to rise too quickly, or too slowly, (underdamped or overdamped) it can results in all of the various "out of tune" system behaviors that I'm sure you're familiar with - worse case a system that has not only no decay factor...but quite the opposite of decay - exponentially oscillating out of control...and can even lead to the destruction of the entire system.

Apply the classifications above of heat=energy...and cold=lack of energy...you can see how the above systems analogy seeks a perfect balance...but at the same time an overall steady (smooth) climb to a higher constant and steady setpoint. Upward = more energy and closeness to the source (God). Downward = less energy, and closeness to absolute zero/lack of all energy.

Remaining in that line between the dynamic only results in a system at rest....no change, no growth, no climb toward higher energies or enlightnment.
I would propose that each sub-system (us) has the option to adjust the "system" with one or the other - in order to set the system in motion either up or down. A slight unbalance is a good thing (as you wonderfully pointed out) - but only if you're interested in creating change. And then one needs to decide what direction they would like the system to go.

Great discussion, Ry, as always. I also appreciated your thoughts on the TOL and I will address them in the other thread when I get some time. Off to the lab for now! :)

Ray


I enjoy your thoughts as well Ray. Same here on the "time" for discussion lol...I've just got a short break for lunch!

-Ry
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