Bob Collins and Exempt from Disclosure

Project Serpo related discussion

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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:27 pm

ryguy wrote:Hey...you maintained the appropriate number of 0's... cool. I worked really hard to make sure I got that right... :)


Copy 'n' paste is my friend :)

Oh...didn't mean the last to be harsh...it's just frustration from seeing how folks take valid comments, like Kit's above, and mutate them into something that it isn't in order to validate their own pet UFO/Alien theories.


I was only joking with being harsh, but I can agree with the above 100%. Seems we're all starting to play the percentage game now... ;)

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Postby cgreen » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:31 pm

But...But...butbutbutbut...!

I have been as clear as I know how to be on the elements of the Core Story I believe...it has been published and republished and restated and respun (by others) so often I am tired of repeating myself.

I have always been as clear as the listener wants / deserves...when called by four-letter words (as in another site contemporaneously) I chill, and shut up. The following has been placed...not as memes but as quotes in over 100 web pages, and been "out there" in at least 6 books that I know of for 20 years.

1. It happened. Once or twice. No Abductions. Ever. SERPO is a HOAX. I was slow in figuring that out, shame on me.

2. No, it isn't anyone's business who told me, or the millions of hours of work that leads to this fragile, subjective, and personal and un-supportable conclusion based on inductive (not dedective) logic, and I won't give private data.

3. I know zero, anymore, that is (any longer) classified.

4. I believe a Reverse Engineering program has been going on for decades.

5. It has been singularly unsuccessful.

6. It was moved to the private sector in the '70s and the '80s.

7. Uncle is quite clueless. Some guys in the IC are playing bad games, mostly because they are clueless, know they are, and want to figure out how to find, and get, inside.

8. I ain't inside. Never have been. People that believe otherwise are understandably Paranoid, and I undersatnd, and no longer bear them any animus for being so flat-wrong, because I have been public and a member of the IC notwithstanding.

9. I support Privacy (for sourcing) , and am agnostic on whether the Public could handle the story, if it were made known, and if what I think the story is, is even the story. There is actually more evidence the public would not deal well with it...and I think the "it" is rather trivial compared to what most on the internet are discussing. But I am an optimist that proper staging could work, and keep most of us relatively sane. Not that there is much evidence for that by reading Blogs!

10. This isn't meant as a Meme...it is meant as a Vaccination. I accept fully that many persons disapprove of Vaccinations that have perceived Thimerosol as Preservatives...but mine is Mercury-free. The Virus is attenuated. Not dead, but inactive except as an adjuvant for stimulation of the Immune System in a healthy way...I sure hope.
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Postby murnut » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:53 pm

ryguy wrote:Hey...you maintained the appropriate number of 0's... cool. I worked really hard to make sure I got that right... :)

Oh...didn't mean the last to be harsh...it's just frustration from seeing how folks take valid comments, like Kit's above, and mutate them into something that it isn't in order to validate their own pet UFO/Alien theories.

-Ry


Is it really so surprising that folks would hang on every word and try to interprete the info provided as best they can?

Spinning the comments to one's own pet theories should not happen, but I am not surprised at all that it happens, given how most of us feel starved for any kind of info at all....especially from those that we perceive to have a better view of the "Core Story" than the rest of us
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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:56 pm

Kit - I know that you sometimes feel like a broken record...especially considering sometimes people don't listen, or mutate what they hear. But in your last post here, I think you've been about as specific as you've ever been privately or anywhere else I've seen anything you've written on the subject. So I just want to state publicly that it's appreciated and thank you.

A few of those are very specific - and I think I speak for a large number of us when I say - "what I wouldn't give for a glimpse at some of the evidence that supports those hypothesis..."

This is the one we're most interested in at the moment (although the others are just as interesting and important):

7. Uncle is quite clueless. Some guys in the IC are playing bad games, mostly because they are clueless, know they are, and want to figure out how to find, and get, inside.


Thanks again...fantastic write-up!

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Postby cgreen » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:09 pm

Cool...but remember...I tried to be very, very clear: I have NO objective evidence; I only have (in my mind, hard to defend) highly credible (to me) personal representations...of subjective, heresay, and circumstantial evidence.

In fact, sometime what I have thought in the past to be credible personal testimony has been shown to be incredible, and even untrue. In one case, maliciously so...which we have discussed often.

Other times, it is virtually impossible to be convincing, when there is nothing to "show"anyone.

Most times, there is too little time to be convincing, in any event.

I am also convinced, often, of things that other sensible people are not: e.g., that pathology is hard to disquise; health is easy to mask. As in: a paranoid schizophrenic, in the actual midst of a hallucination and delusions is pretty hard to mistake as being a well-intentioned open-minded bank president. But a paraphrenic who is otherwise a bank president, and who also is certain s/he is being abducted and raped nightly is pretty hard to spot.

One investigator would see pathology...another would see cleverness of the 20,000 year ahead of us shape-shifting Reptilian Aliens who want to clone our genes and THEN eat us.

And, yes...I do know that being in the first group engenders all manner of paranoia in people who think they are being abducted nightly.



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Postby murnut » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:10 pm

ryguy wrote:Kit - I know that you sometimes feel like a broken record...especially considering sometimes people don't listen, or mutate what they hear. But in your last post here, I think you've been about as specific as you've ever been privately or anywhere else I've seen anything you've written on the subject. So I just want to state publicly that it's appreciated and thank you.

A few of those are very specific - and I think I speak for a large number of us when I say - "what I wouldn't give for a glimpse at some of the evidence that supports those hypothesis..."

This is the one we're most interested in at the moment (although the others are just as interesting and important):

7. Uncle is quite clueless. Some guys in the IC are playing bad games, mostly because they are clueless, know they are, and want to figure out how to find, and get, inside.


Thanks again...fantastic write-up!

-Ry


Yes, Thank-you Dr. Green for the shot of medicine I needed, even if it stings just a little.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:03 pm

Dr. Green:

cgreen wrote:Ray has it right:


Thanks... but what part did I get right? :)

Dr. Vallee's approach was/is more Cybernetic and Information-Theory Intensive. (snip) He holds one of the primary Patents on use of the Internet for increasing Human Knowlege through networking software, which he wrote at the Institute for the Future.


This is the crux of the matter, as far as I am concerned. It's why I get so damned anxious (and perhaps snippy) when people can't stop talking about UFOs and aliens long enough to look at the bigger picture of "Life, The Universe, and Everything" (with all apologies to Douglas Adams).

It is hard to argue that as disparate systems with disparate functionality become connected, new knowledge is created. By this I mean a higher level of understanding of the basis of our existence. To-date, the most highly integrated set of disparate systems which exhibit the highest capability for knowledge extraction is the human body (of which the brain is merely a subsystem). Many of us believe that this system was NOT brought about by accident (the God phenom). So as a person who understands that networking in our universe does not cease, the next question becomes simple to ask, but difficult to answer: What is our next level of networking and what new knowledge about our plight will come to light as a result?

It seems clear (to me) that the internet is the vehicle that will facilitate (is already facilitating?) the next level of emergence. But from my assessment of what we use the internet for, I would hazard a guess that well over 80% of bandwidth is NOT FOCUSED ON THE BIG QUESTION (see above). Porn, e-commerce, conspiracy theories, "alternate news outlets" (which feed the conspiracy theories). In other words, we are still trying to "tune" the next, largest network to get rid of the "junk" that does not further our celestial goals. And believe me, there is a LOT of junk to get rid of... UFOs being a big one (IMO).

The bottom line is that we are beings that feed on more than just food and water. We feed on information. And the old adage still applies "You are what you eat." It is time we stop eating the junk food and start eating healthy. :)

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Postby caryn » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:10 pm

ryguy wrote:
However much of what he writes must be taken with a grain of salt. Some of his sources dissemble. For example - Caryn Anscomb mentioned what she was told the Core Story referred to in one of her articles - and she provided a different date for the Denny's meeting. -Ry


I take great exception to that remark. I have never dissembled information. The date I quote was given to me by one of the participants at said meeting, along with the other information I cite in the article-and all emails are archived. Perhaps you should have approached me for verification! The veracity of the source/s of such information is something else of course…but don’t ever accuse me of dissembling!
Last edited by caryn on Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:16 pm

Caryn - I wasn't referring to you? I consider you Gary's colleague and partner at Starstream research, not one of his sources....

[edit] - Steve pointed out how it looked like I said you were dissembling because the next sentence was an example of information you provided.

For example - Caryn Anscomb mentioned what she was told the Core Story referred to in one of her articles - and she provided a different date for the Denny's meeting.


Sloppy writing on my part - my point was that the different dates from the same source (sources who provide you a date, Gary a date, me a date, etc...) dissemble...

Sorry for the misunderstanding (and poor writing) Caryn.

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Postby caryn » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:25 pm

Thank you for clarifying, Ryan. And my response was a little hasty. No harm done :-)
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Postby sandman » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:37 pm

I never noticed this before.

http://www.miragemen.com/
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Postby ryguy » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:56 pm

sandman wrote:I never noticed this before.

http://www.miragemen.com/


Yes...it's highly anticipated and a much long awaited for documentary....Mark and John are great guys, Steve has met them personally. I can't wait to watch the film when it comes out.

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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:51 pm

Yes they certainly are a couple of great guys. I, along with Caryn, met up in London earlier this year and then again in Newcastle for the Mirage Men preview. I've only just realised I never wrote a report about that! That is something I will have to rectify shortly. Also the fact that they gave me a couple of copies of their book; The Field Guide - The Art, History and Philosophy of Crop Circle Making, co-authored with Rob Irving. I will organise a little competition where one lucky RU member will win a copy of the book (I'm keeping the other lol). Stay tuned for that one.

I spoke with Mark yesterday funnily enough, we are looking to arrange a meeting for sometime in January. It would be nice if you could make it Ry, the UK isn't THAT far away ;)

Both Mark and John read the forums here, and as most people are aware, Mark has also been known to post :)

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Postby caryn » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:32 pm

Zep Tepi wrote: Also the fact that they gave me a couple of copies of their book; The Field Guide - The Art, History and Philosophy of Crop Circle Making, co-authored with Rob Irving. I will organise a little competition where one lucky RU member will win a copy of the book (I'm keeping the other lol). Stay tuned for that one.



For those who haven't read it: http://www.starstreamresearch.com/confessions.htm
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Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:46 am

Hello Dr. Green, good to finally meet you in… albeit in cyberspace.

cgreen wrote:Dr. Puthoff has a Docorate in Physics, and his interest is in advanced Propulsion Systems: again...dozens of Peer-reviewed public articles.

Yes well coincidentally (or not) I too share that interest. In fact Dr. Puthoff is no doubt familiar with this study funded (in the interest of leaving no stone unturned) by an associate of mine who used to sit in the office three doors down the hall from mine…

Teleportation Physics Study
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

[with less than stellar (pun intended) results unfortunately]

Anyway, I’d like to comment on the following points briefly if I may…

cgreen wrote:I believe a Reverse Engineering program has been going on for decades.

Sorry to hear that. I see no compelling reason to keep what would be the greatest scientific discovery in the history of mankind a secret when “they” [the nefarious MJ-12 group of lore I presume] have had the means [e.g. nukes] to take over and control the world for decades now do you?

cgreen wrote:It has been singularly unsuccessful.

Perhaps that’s because it’s non-existent and that’s simply an excuse used to perpetuate the Myth?

cgreen wrote:It was moved to the private sector in the '70s and the '80s.

Pardon the free energy pun but nothing exists in a vacuum… the government as currently structured could not exist without the private sector so that makes so sense to me… the bulk of our defense related work is already being done there…. i.e. what’s the point (difference)?

Contrary to popular belief (?) most defense related technologies have their origins in the private sector where innovation is spurred by competition for lucrative government contracts and in academia by the free flow and exchange of ideas (regulated by peer review) in the pursuit of knowledge, research grants, or for some… notoriety.

Seems to me the only reason to “move” this unsuccessful “reverse engineering” effort into the private sector would be to “lift the shroud of secrecy” so everybody could take a crack at it… then if any significant progress was made it would naturally be “reacquired” (classified) and developed into a weapon system to maintain superiority… but that hasn’t happened.

What am I missing here?

cgreen wrote:Uncle is quite clueless. Some guys in the IC are playing bad games, mostly because they are clueless, know they are, and want to figure out how to find, and get, inside.

Ah, I see, that explains a LOT… there is no inside… only those who’d like others to believe there is…and I see in a lot of cases they’ve succeeded.

cgreen wrote:I support Privacy (for sourcing)

Why am I not surprised? Anonymous sources are useless in the absence of independent verification and this only serves to perpetrate the Myth indefinitely…

[correct me if I’m wrong]

sandman wrote:I never noticed this before.

http://www.miragemen.com/

Thanks for link. Should be very interesting although I’m little concerned with the caption under Doty’s pic…

Richard C. Doty, counter-intelligence specialist.
Ex-Air Force Office of Special Investigation (AFOSI) Special Agent.


That’s a bit misleading IMHO but I admit it does sound intriguing. :)

For those who don’t already know, Doty had no relevant Counterintelligence training beyond the basic training that everyone gets at the AFOSI Academy (same as the FBI + some AF specific stuff)… in fact his military record clearly shows the specialty he chose to pursue in May of 1980 after graduating (just prior to the Bennewitz affair) was Protective Services [for VIPs etc.]… not Counterintelligence which is a separate course/school and no, the Counterespionage course he took in 1983 isn’t the same thing despite what others might like you to believe. In the context of his official job title, Special Investigator and Counterintelligence Technician, CI is a generic term and it’s the same title every enlisted OSI agent gets. Also, one must not forget that above all he was a Technician… that’s different from being an Intelligence Officer. :)

[BTW the OSI is considered a special duty assignment in the AF… one must have a certain amount of time in service and reach a certain grade in thier career field (in Doty's case he had been a Security Policeman for ~10 years) before they can *volunteer* for it… they don’t go around actively recruiting folks]

ryguy wrote:Yes...it's highly anticipated and a much long awaited for documentary.... Mark and John are great guys, Steve has met them personally. I can't wait to watch the film when it comes out.

Cool, it will be interesting to see if it differs significantly from this 1993 AIR report for example due to recent events… or not. :)

The Fund for CIA Research?
or
Who's Disinforming Whom?


http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambon ... earch.html

Dr. Maccabee, Bill Moore & MJ-12

At this point we are forced to review the whole sordid history surrounding Bill Moore, his associate Rick Doty and his highly dubious claim to have been ordered to spy on Paul Bennewitz by members of unnamed agencies of the United States Government. This review is necessary in order to appreciate the lack of judgement that Dr. Maccabee (and therefore FUFOR) has demonstrated in his continuing support for and association with Bill Moore and more importantly Bill Moore's best known creation--the MJ-12 hoax.

Paul Bennewitz is a man with a long history of mental illness who, when lucid, ran a company called Thunder Scientific Corp., a manufacturer of temperature and humidity measuring devices, in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Mr. Bennewitz claimed to have observed and filmed alien spacecraft activity over restricted areas of Kirtland, AFB and tried to interest Air Force officials in his sightings. Robert Hastings, a resident of the same city, spent some time with Bennewitz on two occasions after stories of Bennewitz's UFO encounters began to surface. Contrary to Moore's claims that Bennewitz had seen and filmed super- secret UFO-like craft over the Manzano Weapons Storage Area and the Coyote Canyon Test Site, Hastings found the films to be hoaxes so crude and poorly done as to be laughable. It was quite obvious, Hastings says, that one film was of several birds in flight (metaphorically appropriate, wouldn't you say?). During the screening, Bennewitz claimed the birds' flapping wings were alien spacecraft "force fields" moving up and down. Another film "looked like Bennewitz had thrown it on the floor and walked on it," Hastings added. The film was nothing more than a series of smudges, hair and other debris. A third film purportedly of a "green fireball" phenomenon as reported in one of Doty's bogus documents was found by Hastings to be somewhat drawn on the underside of the 8 mm film strip with a green magic marker.

Hastings, a compassionate and fair-minded person, quickly realized Bennewitz was a mentally disturbed man suffering from paranoid delusions revolving aound alien beings. At one point, Bennewitz showed Hastings print-outs of complete garble which he claimed were messages from the "aliens." Bennewitz interpreted the garble for Hastings, explaining that the aliens had tracked him from his hotel to Bennewitz's home, that they liked him and wanted to rendevous with him later that evening at a remote site. Hastings said thanks but no thanks. A long time friend of Bennewitz's has confirmed that Bennewitz has been repeatedly hospitalized by his family and treated for mental illness over the past decade, long before Moore had reportedly began working his alledged disinformational magic on Bennewitz.

For a better impression of Bennewitz's mental state, check out this description taken from an advertising flyer for Christa Tilton's 'The Bennewitz Papers, 'a book based upon his ramblings: "Bennewitz reported [that] horrid people began following him, breaking into his home to install wire taps, Air Force men showing up at his doorstep at all hours..he was being drugged and was convinced aliens were coming into his home and sticking him with needles. He became a frightened man. He also felt like the government was possibly behind some of the happennings."

There was probably thousands of people all over the country suffering from the same sort of paranoid delusions as Paul Bennewitz. What set Bennewitz apart was that he came into contact with an AFOSI agent named Sgt. Richard Doty.

"Falcon" Doty first surfaced during an attempt to sell a hoaxed incident about a pitched battle with aliens at Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota, where Doty had been stationed. Bob Pratt, armed with a legitimate looking report about the reported case that had been concocted and leaked to Doty, conducted a lengthy investigation for the 'National Enquirer' but failed to find even a shred of supporting evidence. Later, Doty began sending phony letters to APRO, trying to bait them in similar fashion. Then, while stationed at Kirtland AFB, New Mexico, Doty came into contact with Bennewitz as a result of Bennewitz's attempts to get Air Force officials to listen to his rantings about alien encounters.

While other Kirtland officials had politely declined to meet with Bennewitz, Doty apparently saw an opportunity to make hay with Bennewitz's bales. Doty even invited Jerry Miller, a former investigator with the Air Force's 4602nd Sq., the group that did legwork for Project Blue Book, to a meeting with Bennewitz. Miller came away convinced Bennewitz was nothing more than a mentally disturbed person, a "nut case," and advised Doty that he was wasting his time.

But devious Doty was not discouraged. He concocted reports incoporating some of Bennewitz's stories, adding his own embellishments, then sought out Bill Moore, whom he heard speaking about UFOs on a local radio station. The pair soon found a great deal in common: Doty was determined to make big money by concocting phony UFO stories and Moore was determined to get rich by exploiting the subject. In fact, Moore told Todd Zechel in early 1980 that "I'll bet you've heard that you can't make money off UFOs? Well, I proved that wrong!" Bruce Maccabee was present when Moore made this brag, but apparently did not see what dangers it foretold.

Moore showed some of Doty's reports during a documentary on UFOs produced by Ron Lakis, and later Barry Greenwood and Larry Fawcett of CAUS captured one of them on video tape freeze-frame, then submitted FOIA requests for the documents. Doty responded to the request by forwarding several "reports," which were dutifully reprinted in 'Clear Intent' , Greenwood and Fawcett's book. This process legitimized the "documents" and convinced even skeptical UFO advocates that Bennewitz had stumbled onto something important.

Shortly thereafter, members of CAUS took the bait Doty had dangled. Peter Gersten CAUS's attorney, made contact with Doty through Bill Moore and a meeting was arranged. There, Doty alluded to possessing other "hot" information on UFOs and subsequently offered to sell Gersten "documents," stating he needed money because his wife had recently divorced him and he owed legal fees. Gersten wisely declined the offer, fearing he was either being set up for criminal prosecution or that Doty was attempting a swindle.

Moore, the man who had resurrected the Roswell incident (a case for which the best explanation at that point seemed to be some sort of top secret constant altitude balloon project), began working with Doty on developing documents to support crashed saucer recoveries, knowing these would have a greater financial value than Bennewitz's "sightings." Documentary filmmaker Linda Howe was invited to Kirtland to meet with Doty, during which she was shown a purported "Presidential Briefing Paper" on crashed saucers that described four such incidents. Doty also regaled Howe with tales about captured aliens known as EBEs (Extraterrestrial Biological Entities), a term invented by Paul Bennewitz, the same person responsible for "greys," a 'classification' for little E.T.- type aliens now in common use.

Round and round we go…

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