'Ray Bowyer Airline Captain reports Two Mile Long UFOs'

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Postby lost_shaman » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:36 am

Access Denied wrote:Unfortunately I don’t think changing the name from UFO to UAP is going to change the perception much… at least not anytime soon.


You're right, and that's not the point of referring to UAP as UAP. It's UAP that are being described in Scientific literature. Of course all UAP would by definition have been considered in the past to be UFOs.



Access Denied wrote:The reality I’m afraid is anybody who claims to have seen a UFO/UAP is pretty much automatically associated with a belief in Aliens…


I'm sure that's a popular opinion, but does popular opinion make it 'true'? Of course not.




Access Denied wrote: If you haven’t already I would do some research to find out who all is REALLY behind the latest “disclosure” effort and what their agendas REALLY are… I would venture to guess that the CNES representatives weren’t aware.


Why don't you tell me about these people and their agendas, since you've assumed I don't know who they are or have not done any 'research'?



Access Denied wrote:And you’re 100% sure the other pilot wasn’t “in on it” or equally misinterpreted the “object” because?


Did I say "100% sure"? No. So putting those words in my mouth is a strawman argument at best.

Also why would someone need to be "in on it" or misinterpreting anything when you also say "there is evidence of a real phenomena"?

Have you really done any 'research' in this area? You seem to assume I haven't researched anything so I'm just returning the favor, quid pro quo.


Access Denied wrote:One must keep in mind though that no matter how plausible such a hypothesis may seem it’s just one of a number of theories…


Then why do you get so bent out of shape over Friedman and the ETH?

Does Science not advise us to explore multiple hypotheses? To avoid getting attached to our own hypotheses? To argue earnestly against our own hypotheses, even playing the role of 'Devils advocate'?


Access Denied wrote:all unfortunately untestable for the most part due to the rare and fleeting nature of the phenomena.


Not true at all. Thank God for 'real Scientists' who understand how to collect data on astronomical objects having no fixed coordinates!


Access Denied wrote:
To this day we still do not have one single conclusive piece of evidence one way or the other… a definitive photograph or movie would be nice… multispectral imaging even better. :D


I wonder what's been going on at Hessdalen all these years? I'm almost tempted to bet that all those things have already been done, but what would I know considering I don't do any 'research'?
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Postby Access Denied » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:36 am

lost_shaman wrote:Why don't you tell me about these people and their agendas, since you've assumed I don't know who they are or have not done any 'research'?

Calm down LS, no need to be so defensive... did you miss the part where I said "If you haven't already"?

lost_shaman wrote:Did I say "100% sure"? No. So putting those words in my mouth is a strawman argument at best.

Also why would someone need to be "in on it" or misinterpreting anything when you also say "there is evidence of a real phenomena"?

You missed the point… you’re making a mistake if you assign all unidentified cases to UAP… just as it is a mistake to assign all unidentified cases to the ETH. Every case must be evaluated individually and one must also accept that some cases will forever remain UNIDENTIFIABLE.

[due to the lack of any verifiable objective data]

lost_shaman wrote:Have you really done any 'research' in this area? You seem to assume I haven't researched anything so I'm just returning the favor, quid pro quot.

So who all do you think is behind the recent NPC?

[also that’s “quid pro quo”]

lost_shaman wrote:Then why do you get so bent out of shape over Friedman and the ETH?

Because according to Friedman "there's no question".

lost_shaman wrote:Does Science not advise us to explore multiple hypotheses? To avoid getting attached to our own hypotheses? To argue earnestly against our own hypotheses, even playing the role of 'Devils advocate'?

See above.

lost_shaman wrote:
Access Denied wrote:all unfortunately untestable for the most part due to the rare and fleeting nature of the phenomena.

Not true at all. Thank God for 'real Scientists' who understand how to collect data on astronomical objects having no fixed coordinates!

And these “astronomical objects” have been definitely linked to Sightings X, Y and Z how?

lost_shaman wrote:
Access Denied wrote:To this day we still do not have one single conclusive piece of evidence one way or the other… a definitive photograph or movie would be nice… multispectral imaging even better. :D

I wonder what's been going on at Hessdalen all these years? I'm almost tempted to bet that all those things have already been done, but what would I know considering I don't do any 'research'?

I was referring to the ETH. Anyway, you keep going on about the Hessdalen folks, care to share with us your research? Do they have any published peer reviewed papers to their credit?
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Postby lost_shaman » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:41 am

Access Denied wrote:Calm down LS, no need to be so defensive... did you miss the part where I said "If you haven't already"?


Well, let me beg this question,... Why haven't you already read up on this subject if you're so interested?



Access Denied wrote:You missed the point… you’re making a mistake if you assign all unidentified cases to UAP… just as it is a mistake to assign all unidentified cases to the ETH.


And why on Earth would you assume "I make" either of those "mistakes"?



Access Denied wrote: Every case must be evaluated individually and one must also accept that some cases will forever remain UNIDENTIFIABLE

[due to the lack of any verifiable objective data]


We wouldn't evaluate everything individually as though unrelated, for instance we would consider 'sprites' to be a phenomena and not a random group of individual and unrelated events.



Access Denied wrote:So who all do you think is behind the recent NPC?


You tell me... The Illuminati? The 'Believers'? The New World Order? Dick Chaney? Who?

Let me guess... The people involved just are not smart enough to hold a Press Conference without some 'diabolical' 'backing'?


Access Denied wrote:[also that’s “quid pro quo”]


Thanks I caught the typo.


Access Denied wrote:
lost_shaman wrote:Then why do you get so bent out of shape over Friedman and the ETH?

Because according to Friedman "there's no question".

Then you have a problem with Friedman, not the observable phenomena we are discussing. Surely you do make a distinction between the two.

Access Denied wrote:And these “astronomical objects” have been definitely linked to Sightings X, Y and Z how?


How can I say some undefined sighting is consistent with UAP or not when the only information is "X, Y and Z"?

Access Denied wrote:I was referring to the ETH. Anyway, you keep going on about the Hessdalen folks, care to share with us your research? Do they have any published peer reviewed papers to their credit?


I'd guess that there are probably 50+ published papers specifically concerning UAP and the Study of UAP in Hessdalen alone. :roll:
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Postby Access Denied » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:08 am

lost_shaman wrote:I'd guess that there are probably 50+ published papers specifically concerning UAP and the Study of UAP in Hessdalen alone. :roll:

I see only one paper that was published listed here and it was published in the JSE... a err umm "less then mainstream" publication...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessdalen_light

If you're talking about this...

http://www.hessdalen.org/reports/

Those haven’t been published in any recognized peer reviewed scientific journals as far as I can tell.

So where are these 50+ published reports?

P.S. Pardon me if I ignore your trademark circular reasoning in the rest of the above post… my patience wears thin.
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Postby lost_shaman » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:40 am

Access Denied wrote:I see only one paper that was published listed here and it was published in the JSE... a err umm "less then mainstream" publication...


This paper published by the ESA discusses the success of Hessdalen heavily although in the context of SETV.

Ansbro E. & Overhauser C. (2001) ’SETV: Opportunity for european initiative in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence’, Conf. Proc. on “First European Workshop on Exo/Astrobiology”, 21-23 May 2001, ESRIN, Frascati (Rome), Italy, ESA SP-496, pp. 285-288.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2001ESASP.496..285A

Also published by the ESA.

Teodorani M. (2001), ‘Instrumented Search for Exogenous Robotic Probes on Earth’, Conf. Proc. on “First European Workshop on Exo/Astrobiology”, 21-23 May 2001, ESRIN, Frascati (Rome), Italy, ESA SP-496, pp. 379-381.

Also.

Teodorani M. & Strand E.P. (1998), ‘Experimental methods for studying the Hessdalen phenomenon in the light of the proposed theories: a comparative overview’, ØIH Rapport, n. 5, Høgskolen i Østfold (Norway), pp. 1-93.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1998emsh.rept.....T

Fryberger D. (1997), ‘A Model for Ball Lightning’, ØIH Rapport, n. 5, Høgskolen i Østfold (Norway), pp. 1-82.

Zou You-Suo (1995) ‘Some Physical Considerations for Unusual Atmospheric Lights Observed in Norway’, Physica Scripta, Vol. 52, 1995, p. 726.


The Italian Commettee for Project Hessdalen link below lists 32 papers. No, they don't appear to my knowledge in Major Peer reviewed journals, but they are legitimate papers written by proffesional Scientists/Engineers describing UAP and the Study of UAP in Hessdalen over the last 25 years.

http://www.itacomm.net/PH/

These two also appear in JSE.

http://www.itacomm.net/ph/2007_SILVESTRI_et_al.pdf

http://www.itacomm.net/ph/2007_HAUGE.pdf




Access Denied wrote:If you're talking about this...

http://www.hessdalen.org/reports/

Those haven’t been published in any recognized peer reviewed scientific journals as far as I can tell.


They are however, published articles that can be referenced in in papers appreaing in peer reviewed journals.



Access Denied wrote:So where are these 50+ published reports?


Well I think I just pointed you in the direction of around 40 Papers and articles. That should tide you over for quite awhile if you're willing to read any of them.
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Postby ryguy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:20 am

http://www.prismcoalition.org/peer_science.htm


“Given the frequent disregard in many parts of the media for accurate and balanced science and health coverage, it is not surprising that many people find it difficult to know what is factually based and what is pure junk. The fault, however, does not lie entirely with the press. Quite often journalists receive material in the form of press releases or conference papers which have not been subject to any formal vetting procedures — the critical test being that of ‘peer review’. This assesses the validity of the methods and results of research, the significance of the findings and whether the content should or should not be published.”

- Dr. Peter Marsh
..The Social Issues Research Centre

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Re: 'Ray Bowyer Airline Captain reports Two Mile Long UFOs'

Postby nablator » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:54 pm

In the newly released UFO files from the UK government :
http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
UFOs sighted by pilot and passengers of aircraft over Channel Islands
DEFE 24/2081/1, p39-47 contains Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) papers describing two UFOs sighted by pilot and passengers of a Trislander aircraft as it approached Alderney in the Channel Islands on the afternoon of 23 April 2007. The file also includes the pilot‟s report to Jersey Air Traffic control and a second sighting report from the pilot of a Jetstream aircraft above the English Channel. The RAF said nothing was seen on radar and no further investigation was required, as the sightings occurred in French airspace. A copy of the CAA summary of the incident can be found in DEFE 24/2094/1, p207.
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Re: 'Ray Bowyer Airline Captain reports Two Mile Long UFOs'

Postby LCARS24 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:40 am

Access Denied wrote:Nothing because we already know UAP exist in the atmosphere! You got that 'Memo', Right?


Good. I've been going over cases, and that saves me dragging them out and making summaries. The earliest report I know of so far with crew plus passengers as witnesses is the April 27, 1950, TWA DC-3 case. Major Keyhoe was given the ATIC report but also interviewed 11 of the passengers (two of whom were Boeing engineers) individually by telephone, took notes, and compared stories. If that UAP was a natural phenomenon, okay, but it did seem to at least give the illusion of intelligent control, coming, going, pulling alongside to pace the airliner, and showing off superior flight performance. The color and shape make that a tough one to see as hail, ball lightning or anything like that.

But I got a bit of a kick out of the 1956 case of Capt. W. J. Hull, veteran Capital Airlines pilot and UFO skeptic (who had written an article "The Obituary of the Flying Saucers" for The Airline Pilot magazine) before his personal encounter in the sky (described in The UFO Evidence, NICAP, 1964). It just left me wondering about any subsequent articles he may have written.

So, yeah, with all the cases that are hard to write off, It looks likes there's something going on. A Sci-Fi series about a secret, isolated human society hundreds of years ahead of the rest of the world and their antics observing us might be cool but would require an explanation about some discovery that allowed such development without a population large enough to support an industrial base, Hollow Earthers, aside--maybe from an ancient space-faring human society that had stayed away for a while after some global catastrophe and later has only visited, observed, and enjoyed some R&R on Earth.

But yeah, one thing at a time. Something--we don't know what. I don't want to hear about contactees, abductees, bovine biopsies, or crashed whatever. Just "What are those UAPs?"

Access Denied wrote:To this day we still do not have one single conclusive piece of evidence one way or the other… a definitive photograph or movie would be nice… multispectral imaging even better.


Well, we've heard about the Gorden Cooper film, the many reels of Project Twinkle cinetheodolite footage, and Air Force gun-camera footage that we don't get to see. What's with that, anyway? Certainly it's all been examined and is still withheld for some reason. Some would say if it's clearly not Unregisted Foreign Overfliers (UFOs) then the whole saucer thing was concocted to hide and get funding for black projects and/or scare potential enemies (never mind 19th-century,etc. sightings). Hm.

http://www.nicap.org/sands500427dir.htm

Anyway, debunking? I gave an example in another thread of how the O'Hare case could have been faked (for less than $20,000) in such a way that all the witnesses would believe they were seeing a disc hover then shoot skyward punching a hole in the overcast. But nobody would believe a debunker with that kind of story unless he hired someone to play the hoaxer and provided him with photos of the rig. That leaves the unconvincing excuse about some weather phenomenon.
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