Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origin?

A spiritual perspective on phenomenon

Moderators: ryguy, chrLz, Zep Tepi

Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origin?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:16 pm

*** Mod Edit: The following discussion evolved out of the thread: Are sleep disorders and UFO experiences related? ***

If there is one lesson I have learned from many years of systems engineering is that the boundaries we define that separate what is "inside" a system from what is "outside" a system are tenuous, at best. And while we draw such boundaries out of convenience, and what we THINK to be the obvious dividing line, all we need to do is see several systems that are interactive with one another under a higher-level system operational purpose (intent). Once we see such subsystems in a higher-level context we can immediately identify where our initial setting of boundaries between "inside" and "outside" were misguided.

The human being is a system much like any other. And for that reason I tend to disagree with both of you, and agree with both of you, to the extent of not being able to "prove" the inside/outside theory one way or the other. It would only take one short view of that "higher context" to forever show us that things we think are "outside" ourselves are really part of that bigger picture.

Many people often think the human body/mind is an isolated system. To this I always point out that isn't it interesting that our entire physical makeup looks exactly like a dipole (antenna). Certainly we "send and receive" signals in the frequency bands we are familiar with when it comes to physical phenomena. But the mere fact that "I believe" that I am a separate and distinct person from you, Ryan, or you Caryn, does not make it so. If there is one thing that is clear from looking at Nature it is that distributed functionality ensures survival.

If one believes that we can ultimately "Commune with God, the Creator" then one must know that there is a higher-level context wherein everything that we THINK is external to ourselve is actually PART OF ourselves.

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA


Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:24 pm

Hey, I think everything that can't be explained is down to a glitch in the matrix - intended or otherwise. We need to find the programmer and tell him/her/it to stop fooling around and upgrade the software.

I can just see it now...

Life 2.0, out now at all good omnipotence outlets!

Upgrades include but not limited to:
    Visual distortions removed - UFO's and ghosts are a thing of the past!
    Auditory bugs corrected - no more unexplained metallic voices!
    Fixed 3D Environment!
    Extended Play mode!
    And much more besides!



Cheers,
Zep
.
Image
User avatar
Zep Tepi
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:59 pm

Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:26 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:If one believes that we can ultimately "Commune with God, the Creator" then one must know that there is a higher-level context wherein everything that we THINK is external to ourselve is actually PART OF ourselves.
Ray


Ray - your description above actually aligns perfectly with the hypothesis of the Physicist I mentioned above...and I hold out hope that one day he'll be willing to share his opinion here on RU - he would bring a heck of a lot to the table on these matters. I bet you and he would get along great, Ray. Your hypothesis have a heck of a lot in common.

I agree with the systems theory you've outlined, in that we are all part of the same system - distinct only insofar as we can perceive the boundaries to be. And as a nod to you...I think that this hypothesis is at a higher level than most people are used to discussing these matters. Most people are used to discussing the paranormal "actions", such as objects moving on their own, in terms of what is occuring inside & outside those boundaries.

I think (or I hope) that there can be a way to understand those energies, that can do things like move objects on their own for example, without having to overlook the boundaries that we perceive. It does remain, after all, a part of our conscious reality....unless of course a person takes a drug that removes the border between conscious & unconscious...in which case those boundaries fade.

While I think there are some folks out there who are convinced the future of mankind is one in which people "evolve" to a higher level of consciousness in which those boundaries dissolve (like what happens when people take hallucinogenics) - I tend to hold out hope that it will be possible to understand these phenomenon and energies without having to mutate (or evolve, depending on your point of view..lol) into a being that no longer respects or acknowledges those boundaries.

Cool concepts though huh? I love reading your take Ray...awesome post.

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:37 pm

Yes – that is in a large sense where I’m coming from with my theories re: the experiences.

But, we do differentiate between a higher holistic system and a ‘singular’ perpetrator. In the same way that we would single out the actions of a burglar or murderer from society as a whole. That opinion is not shared by everyone of course and could open a whole new can of worms.
caryn
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: London

Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:40 pm

Just seen Zep's post...given me a well needed giggle ;-) Bring it on!
caryn
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: London

Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:22 pm

Following on from above.

It’s this need to single out a cause that gets us in a tizzy. Ryan was right, in that the larger motive to isolate a cause is control. If we know what it is we should be able to control it – he recognised my ‘need’ to control it and my fear of not being able to, whether ‘inner’ or ‘outer’ a cause.

What do we do? Take the Buddhist approach or continue to struggle with our perceptions. I want an answer before I die; on the other hand I also want peace of mind. I think I’m too far down the road to find solace in faith, but I do hanker after some sort of redemption.

Is this getting a bit too heavy?
caryn
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: London

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:25 pm

ryguy wrote:Ray - your description above actually aligns perfectly with the hypothesis of the Physicist I mentioned above...and I hold out hope that one day he'll be willing to share his opinion here on RU - he would bring a heck of a lot to the table on these matters. I bet you and he would get along great, Ray. Your hypothesis have a heck of a lot in common.


Well, here's to hoping he decides to join us someday!

I think that this hypothesis is at a higher level than most people are used to discussing these matters.


True enough. And IMO this is an area where we humans have a lot of changing to do...changing perspectives. Such change will be necessary on both the "science" and "spirituality" sides if we are to comprehend a new LEVEL of truth that encompasses both of these disciplines. It will mean we can no longer afford to cling to our perception of our physicality as though it were localized within a single physical body. We must "graduate" to a full information topology, wherein distributed functions are "connected" in ways that we currently deem "paranormal".

While I think there are some folks out there who are convinced the future of mankind is one in which people "evolve" to a higher level of consciousness in which those boundaries dissolve (like what happens when people take hallucinogenics) - I tend to hold out hope that it will be possible to understand these phenomenon and energies without having to mutate (or evolve, depending on your point of view..lol) into a being that no longer respects or acknowledges those boundaries.


I believe the first "boundary" that we will be successful in dissolving is much more fundamental... and that is the boundary between life and death. I know Christianity (in general) and Catholicism (specifically) do NOT endorse the concept of re-incarnation... yet they all claim that our soul/spirit is immortal. But if my theory (and that of many other cognitive scientists) is true, and we are really living within a higher-order context of "information", then there should be little argument to the concept that the same information could be accessed by different physical bodies over different epochs of common time. And this is the sort of thing that can break-open wide the doors of "spooky action at a distance" or, more mundanely... "higher levels of communication" that are continually going on amongst all of us "human islands"...most of the time without our conscious perception!

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:35 pm

caryn wrote:But, we do differentiate between a higher holistic system and a ‘singular’ perpetrator. In the same way that we would single out the actions of a burglar or murderer from society as a whole. That opinion is not shared by everyone of course and could open a whole new can of worms.


I love cans of worms! :D

It is true that here on the physical plane that we identify singular perpetrators. But consider if you will that, if "to burgle" or "to murder" can be considered explicit functions, then we could possibly agree that two instances of "murderer" share elements of that same function... and indeed, could possibly be linked at some level...? Again, this thought presumes not only that individual functions can be distributed across more than one physical platform, but it also assumes there is a higher-level of interaction... a more basic kind of interaction. I maintain this is called "infospace". And if this theory follows current science, then the "signals" that traverse "infospace" would be so LOW in power as to appear to our linear-seeking selves to be nothing more than noise.

To go WAAAAY out on a limb, I will state my belief that "people of like mind" are ALREADY communicating at this higher level, of which their conscious mind is either totally not aware of it, or only aware at certain moments of clarity. To use the systems engineering terminology: I am certain that I "share functionality" with you Caryn, and you Ryan... and many others here on this forum. Common functions always seem to link-up. It is Nature's way of promoting efficiency. Ever hear about the experiment where two heart cells from different animals were isolated in a single petri dish? As it turns out both heart cells served common functions, and in the end they both linked-up and began to "beat' (constrict/relax) in unison. Just proof of what I am talking about.

And could there be any better example of what I am talking about than the WWW?

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:50 pm

caryn wrote:What do we do? Take the Buddhist approach or continue to struggle with our perceptions. I want an answer before I die; on the other hand I also want peace of mind. I think I’m too far down the road to find solace in faith, but I do hanker after some sort of redemption.

Is this getting a bit too heavy?


I love that....I've never heard a more sincere or humble statement than the one above.

Everyone finds some solace in their chosen faith, it only depends on what faith they choose - but every person has one...it's simply the set of beliefs they carry regarding our place in the Universe. Some folks easily align with mainstream beliefs - others...not so mainstream.

Some folks who consider themselves "faith-less" are some of the most devoted and faithful folks I've ever met. They are faithful to their own truths.

Redemption is a lot like humility - those who believe they have got it actually end up having less of it than everyone around them (radical evangelical right-wing Christians, look out!)

Here's something that might bring some comfort - it is said in some small circles that those who experience the most pain and the most suffering, in this life, are also those who are closest to true redemption.

"God has no religion."
Gandhi (1869 - 1948)


-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:02 pm

Thank you, Ryan, that meant a lot to me…..
caryn
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: London

Postby caryn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:39 pm

Thank you Ray. You do express your concepts well, the teacher in you I suspect.

Using the murderer analogy again, would the function not be deemed a ‘malfunction’ – a rogue signal within the ‘infospace’? Or am I trying to apply moralistic values where they don’t belong?
caryn
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: London

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:11 am

caryn wrote:Thank you Ray. You do express your concepts well, the teacher in you I suspect.

Using the murderer analogy again, would the function not be deemed a ‘malfunction’ – a rogue signal within the ‘infospace’? Or am I trying to apply moralistic values where they don’t belong?


Thank you, Caryn.

In the interest of being scientific, yes the moral judgments only come when you assess the value of a function against some stated goal. Any verb equates to a function, a function has inputs and outputs, and a function is performed by one or more physical elements. As I always point out, any technology could be used for "good" or "bad" and the judgment therein is always based upon the stated goals and intentions, like an operational imperative (e.g Thou Shalt Not Murder). So in seeking to keep an analytical view of this, I would just state it is a function performed by some people.

This impartial view would have to be considered if one does think of a God and one purports that this God loves all people, equally. Since we equate murder with being a bad thing, one would have to rise to the level of the Creator to see "murder as just another function of the universe".

Now I am REALLY blabbering.... I am not denying that murder is a bad thing. Only trying to keep the analytic edge.
Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:11 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And this is the sort of thing that can break-open wide the doors of "spooky action at a distance" or, more mundanely... "higher levels of communication" that are continually going on amongst all of us "human islands"...most of the time without our conscious perception!

Ray


The Doors of Perception!

Sorry I rarely get to make Jim Morrison references when discussing UFOs and in this instance other interesting topics.

Anyway, it's amusing to me that this came up because a couple of years ago I may or may not have eaten a mushroom or two, purely for research purposes and to avoid imminent starvation of course, and what came to me at one point was a vision of 'all Humanity' as a literal "Tree of Life" where 'our' ancestors are the trunk(s) and Branches of the 'Tree' and the living Humans are the 'Leaves'.

What I found interesting about that was that there really is no difference between the Human race and an 'Old Tree of Life'. The difference is superficial!!! The 'Leaves' of the Human 'Tree' (that's you and me and everyone else) can migrate and co-exist with each other no-matter where you come from, while on a true 'Tree' as we see in nature 'Leaves' are stationary and are not 'flowers' that are capable of reproduction.

What's even more interesting is that if we let Darwin force us to take this thinking a bit further the Human 'Tree of Life' is actually only a 'Branch' on the whole 'Tree of Life'. Literally, all Life on Earth is related! If we think about Life on Earth in this way then the real 'Trees' that we see in the natural world (that are relatively recent in evolutionary terms) are actually only logical (Idealized) reflections of the 'Tree of Life' that already existed, but in a state where 'Leaves' were individuals and reproductive unlike actual 'Trees' as we know them and their 'leaves' in nature.

BTW, I NEVER thought that would come up in a serious discussion, lol, I was wrong. BUT It's so intuitive because everyone has a "Family Tree" which is obviously only a small 'Branch' on the 'Tree of Life'. Right?
User avatar
lost_shaman
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:56 am

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:28 am

Hi LS,

I fear we are straying from the original topic...but what are fears if they are not confronted?
lost_shaman wrote:What I found interesting about that was that there really is no difference between the Human race and an 'Old Tree of Life'. The difference is superficial!!! The 'Leaves' of the Human 'Tree' (that's you and me and everyone else) can migrate and co-exist with each other no-matter where you come from, while on a true 'Tree' as we see in nature 'Leaves' are stationary and are not 'flowers' that are capable of reproduction.


You will get no argument from me, nor from Caryn I would hazard to guess. The trees of Nature are simply the most visibly accessible form of a fundamental archetype that ties ALL forms of life together, the network. And while my website seems to focus exclusively on the Qabalistic Tree Of Life, it is also merely a model of the greater truth that all things tie together via networks. Many networks (the tree, our rivers) have been seen by us for many ages. Some networks have only been revealed to us as medicine advanced (our circulatory and nervous systems). There are yet more natural networks for us to discover. And just as discovery of the networks of the human body helped us advance in knowing our physical selves, the discoveries of networks that connect parts of the E/M spectrum (as one example) will certainly fuel our understanding of how the human system expands well beyond the confines of our bodies.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! :)
Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby caryn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:31 am

Not such a Lost Shaman after all ;-)
I echo Ray’s sentiments.

The Tree, as you’ve discovered and Ray explains, has long been a living symbolic representation of the physical and spiritual Cosmos. The Tree of Life is a fairly complex perceptual system mapped onto that primeval image.

The ‘flat’ image charts our physical solar system, each path and sphere is loaded with associated symbol, planetary, zodiacal, numerical, alphabetical, colour, to name a few.

When you take the ‘flat’ image and overlay it onto an image of the human physical form, it becomes a map charting key points on the human body. You will have heard of the idiom ‘As above, so below’.

In some traditions the Tree of Life is depicted with roots, or a mirror image of itself extending downwards into the ‘underworld’ – this isn’t simply a representation of the underworld but is also a symbolic image gesturing the multi-dimensional attributes of the Tree, in 2d form. In even more complex systems, not only does the Tree extend downwards, but it also extends upwards, forwards and backwards – a 4d image permeating through the known dimensions and plains of existence.

It becomes even more complex – I don’t know if Ray would agree with my analogy here, but the best way for me to describe it would be by invoking the holographic notion. Not only does the Tree permeate all dimensions, but it is reflected through those dimensions in its entirety. And here we witness the interconnectiveness of everything on the grandest scale our human perception will currently allow.

It is a remarkable perceptual system, not born of just one man’s vision, or one culture but out of the primordial origins we all share - which has been and continues to be added to as our awareness increases.

It is the only system, which I personally know of at least, that is ancient, physical, spiritual and ultra-modern, in that it can accommodate scientific developments as we move forward.

I’m sure Ray can expound on this far better than I.

I’m wondering if we should move this thread to the Tree of Life section, A.D?
caryn
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: London

Next

Google

Return to Spirituality and the Paranormal

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron