Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origin?

A spiritual perspective on phenomenon

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Postby caryn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:35 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: Thank you, Caryn.

In the interest of being scientific, yes the moral judgments only come when you assess the value of a function against some stated goal. Any verb equates to a function, a function has inputs and outputs, and a function is performed by one or more physical elements. As I always point out, any technology could be used for "good" or "bad" and the judgment therein is always based upon the stated goals and intentions, like an operational imperative (e.g Thou Shalt Not Murder). So in seeking to keep an analytical view of this, I would just state it is a function performed by some people.

This impartial view would have to be considered if one does think of a God and one purports that this God loves all people, equally. Since we equate murder with being a bad thing, one would have to rise to the level of the Creator to see "murder as just another function of the universe".

Now I am REALLY blabbering.... I am not denying that murder is a bad thing. Only trying to keep the analytic edge.
Ray


No, not blabbering at all – it’s completely coherent.

I was having a conversation with Gary and Kit last year, in which I (clumsily no doubt) was trying to explain why it seems apparent that there is no such thing as a universally accepted moral code, moral values seem to be a localised social construct.

The example I gave was cannibalism. Our society finds the practice abhorrent and even sinful, but certain tribal cultures have no qualms about eating human flesh. The practice is often highly ritualised, accommodating quite complex cognitive functions.

Taking that a little further, some years ago I was having a chat with a young girl who was just about to leave the UK to become a missionary. I asked her how she would deal with the cultural differences – specifically when it comes to moral values. She said that although she would be able to make allowances, her mission was to educate and deliver the indigenous people out of sinful living. I questioned whether she really had the right to do that, after all, how do we determine what is truly sinful.

I asked her to contemplate this: if a murderer (is it normal to be so macabre?) doesn’t acknowledge that he/she has committed a sinful act, have they really committed a sin against God? In other words, surely one can only commit a sin if one acknowledges the sin.

It didn’t go down very well with her – but you probably get my gist.
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Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:27 pm

caryn wrote:I asked her to contemplate this: if a murderer (is it normal to be so macabre?) doesn’t acknowledge that he/she has committed a sinful act, have they really committed a sin against God? In other words, surely one can only commit a sin if one acknowledges the sin.

It didn’t go down very well with her – but you probably get my gist.


She simply didn't understand the concepts enough to answer the question. :)

(And it's a fantastic question). Acknowledgement of sin is a prerequisite for redemption, not the commital of the sin. Actually...typically those who commit such heinous acts are those who refuse to acknowledge the reality of it - in fact...in some cases they've even done the opposite...they've convinced themselves that their actions are the opposite of sin - they believe they are doing "God's Work". Their personal beliefs have little to do with the reality...but again - this obviously gets to how much of this is from "within" and how much is from "outside" of us.

Gustavo Gutierrez, liberation theologian, wrote :

“…sin is not considered as an individual, private, or merely interior reality…sin is regarded as a social, historical fact., the absence of brotherhood and love in relationships among men…When it is considered in this way, the collective dimensions of sin are rediscovered.”

At our core - each human is born with a deep sense of what represents an act of love and what represents a hateful act. But we also are "gifted" with the free will to convince ourselves that there is no difference....even though we are hard-coded with an understanding - however much we hate it.

Also - taking the cultural/social aspect into consideration...it's probably no coincidence that such cultures, such as the Kuru of New Guinea were subjected to horrible disease that nearly eradicated their culture and society. There's also evidence to suggest that cannabalism in other ancient cultures led to their early (quite eerie and bloody) eradication and demise. Again - this perspective appears rather insensitive, I admit. Whether such events represent "punishment" or "wrath" is subject to debate. Personally I think it's much more complicated than that - and goes into how "evil" is present in the world and how it has a certain "free will" of it's own - but as Ray points out, it certainly serves a function within the system - one that is impossible to understand or comprehend unless we have the "Creator's" perspective.

I think in these models we all agree on the systems approach - but I think we each differ, some of us greatly, and some of us only slightly - on its architecture (how the subsystems are laid out and their "priority level" within the system).

-Ry
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:59 pm

ryguy wrote:At our core - each human is born with a deep sense of what represents an act of love and what represents a hateful act. But we also are "gifted" with the free will to convince ourselves that there is no difference....even though we are hard-coded with an understanding - however much we hate it.


I have often wondered if this were true. Can't say that I am "on board" as yet that there are facts to support it (i.e. which DNA sequence would represent it?). However, I do believe there is a lot of evidence that it is the socializing guidance of parents that supply a great deal of our morality. Learned behavior vs. inherent behavior? This would obviously lead toward studies of feral children:

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/nature.php

Quite simply, feral children are usually entirely unaware of the needs and desires and others. The concepts of morals, property and possessions are alien to them, and they can't show empathy with other people. If brought up by animals, they don't even identify themselves as human, but probably regard humans as "the enemy".

The article Nurtured by Love or Matured by Nature by Dr Susan du Plessis discusses the role that parenting has in the teaching of human skills and qualities.

For more on social development in the first 18 months of a baby's life, read the excellent The Cradle of Thought, by Professor Peter Hobson.


A very difficult topic since (obviously) each and every one of us is "tainted" by our upbringing.

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Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:17 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Can't say that I am "on board" as yet that there are facts to support it (i.e. which DNA sequence would represent it?).


I know...lol...it lies at the heart of these divergent views. Some people believe that even animals are naturally inclined to love - some animals even outwardly are observed to mourn when their young die. Some might suggest that they were "raised" to feel a certain way...but I don't agree, especially with animals who are not as socially "evolved" as we are. I would wager there is more hard-coded into our nature than people realize.

But the nature vs. nurture argument is about as old as time.

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Postby caryn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:21 pm

ryguy wrote:

Also - taking the cultural/social aspect into consideration...it's probably no coincidence that such cultures, such as the Kuru of New Guinea were subjected to horrible disease that nearly eradicated their culture and society. There's also evidence to suggest that cannabalism in other ancient cultures led to their early (quite eerie and bloody) eradication and demise. Again - this perspective appears rather insensitive, I admit. Whether such events represent "punishment" or "wrath" is subject to debate.




This seems significant, not insensitive. This to me would indicate that a ‘hardwired’ moral code has a lot to do with the long term survival of a species. We innately know, or have learned through experience, through the generations, that the practice of consuming human flesh is probably detrimental to our well being.

I remember reading a piece on the history of circumcision (I know, I read some pretty odd stuff) – not sure if this is a fallacy but it made sense to me. The practice of circumcision came about as a practical means to counter a pretty painful condition contracted by those living in very sandy regions. It was later incorporated into religious text, gradually morphing into an intrinsic part of two of our main religions.


Gustavo Gutierrez, liberation theologian, wrote :

“…sin is not considered as an individual, private, or merely interior reality…sin is regarded as a social, historical fact., the absence of brotherhood and love in relationships among men…When it is considered in this way, the collective dimensions of sin are rediscovered.”


This is lovely!

Addendum:

Female circumcision has far more sinister origins – but I don’t want to be the instigator of a battle of the sexes on here…plus, I’ve just realized I’m grossly outnumbered.

And now I’m really off topic.
Last edited by caryn on Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby caryn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:24 pm

ryguy wrote: Some people believe that even animals are naturally inclined to love - some animals even outwardly are observed to mourn when their young die.
-Ry


Elephants are a great example!
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Postby Access Denied » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:57 pm

Wow, I go to Vegas for a few days and look what happens... all hell breaks loose! 8) Maybe I should go away more often. :)

caryn wrote:I’m wondering if we should move this thread to the Tree of Life section, A.D?

Let me catch me up and find a good point to split this interesting discussion out into a separate thread... meanwhile, by all means, carry on! :)
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Postby Access Denied » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:02 am

OK everyone I split this topic out of the other thread and and moved it here for further discussion... please let me know if you think anything important for maintaining continuity was left out.

I hope the thread title I came up with doesn’t sound too dorky. :)
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Re: Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origi

Postby franspeakfree » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:10 pm

Through my own understanding through previous experiences I would say that Paranormal Experiences are from both Internal and external origin. Let me explain:

The majority of the population in the world works in order to earn a living, we all eat,drink,sleep.crap e.t.c this is what I call the level of everyday life, if I was to talk to you in person I would hold my hand out flat about 1 meter off the ground in order to show an imaginary level.

In order to experience the paranormal IMHO the level of awareness has to be below the level of 'everyday life' for example, when you have finished work and the stress and pressures are left behind you begin to 'unwind' unwinding is another tag for 'relaxing' which is another tag for meditating, gathering thoughts through resting the body e.t.c. In those states of unwinding our levels of awareness rise and we begin to sink lower than the level of 'everyday life' Once we start to achieve this we become more reseptable to the paranormal if we choose as we continue to relax a new world opens up. (I hope I haven't lost you, its bloody hard to put everything in to words, its much easier to experience it)

How many people in the world actually spend hours a day unwinding? not many I am sure. If its not the radio, its the tv if its not the tv its the telephone if its not the telephone its the kids etc etc, to take time out to unwind is like a rare occurrence which is why the 'paranormal/supernatural experiences whatever you want to call it is not common talking point within families.

If people did actually take time out to gather ones thoughts and listen to the mind and body then quite simply and effectively everyone would 'hear' themselves communicating through their mind and bodies. Once this is established then it wouldn't take to long for the external influences to come through.

How many people reading this have gone to sleep and just before nodding off, in that state of no return heard in their heads a load of people talking as though a dinner party is going on in your head? anyone? well it happens to me and many people that I know regularly and if you concentrate (without exertion), if you try to physically to concentrate it will be gone in a flash, but if you concentrate by relaxing in to it and 'hone' in on these voices you would be surprised at what you hear. Now I don't want to go in to great detail about where I think these external 'voices' originate but I think its safe to say that life extends further than the planet earth.

Its the same with meditating when people start to practice to meditate they will fall asleep, its the bodies way of saying, finally I can get some rest and start to form a connection with the mind its about time!, (since birth we are always on the go we don't stop to do this) once the connection is made through repeated meditating sittings, the real fun starts. Not only can you see,feel,understand life outside of the box but you can interact with it also. This is what I call 'the altered state of external influence' its a place where you can be in order to improve your life any which way you seem fit (however there are limitations, winning the lottery for example, never going to happen trust me when I say this, its just pure unadulterated love and compassion so beneficial you wish you could contain it and bottle it. Its like that feeling of being nurtured by your mother when you were a baby, 'priceless'

I hope I haven't rattled on to much its just that I am really passionate about this because it has been a part of my life since my late teens and it is a sure fire way for anyone to experience life for themselves instead of just readings people words on the subject. My whole family thought I was in to some kind of cult when I was younger as I was always meditating and trying very hard to get them to do it. When they eventually did they were hooked because they saw something that science cannot explain and although they went down the 'religious' route, it was still great for them to experience it.

i have so many experiences that I will share over time that perhaps will help others make that step to 'unwind' and relax.
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Re: Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origi

Postby spiritimage2 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:35 am

We all have certain abilities. Our only thoughts will become ignored if we are not true to ourselves.
We have many gifts to explore in this lifetime. So many have ignored all opportunities because. of
the lack of skeptism. I for one believe all things are possible. We can not judge a person because,
they have a sense of knowing certain things to their knowledge.
God keeps us in a certain monument of our lives and, he will test our skeptism. We are always learning
and, many of us such as I do have certain psychic abilities.
Being involved with our inner self will allow our minds and, thoughts to perceive things in a way of teaching.
This only tells many that we are all brought forth accordingly and, our decisions are based on our beliefs.
So to speak the reflections on a psychics gift's allows us all to pay attention to the many outlooks we can
and, will be brought in front of us to explore. Many psychics have the ability to prepare us all to look ahead
at what we can teach ourselves to become better individuals. Let's not contradict the abilities a psychic
can offer. Our destinations in this life can bring us many true diversities to follow.
We can not rely on our trustworthy to become a true individual. Many times in life we fail to realise that
God allow's certain things to take place. When a psychic prepares a reading for a individual this is the
reading for that person only. Whether or not you believe is your decision and, all others shall proceed.
I remember the first time I became a true testing for theses psychic abilites. I for one did not realise I was
capable of doing such things. God know's my thoughts and, belief's and, has allowed this gift for me to reach
out to others. We must prepare and, not ignore all the things we may come upon. Everything is brought
forth to us. The problem is we do not pay attention. Let's look ahead at all the true diversities of this life
and. be willing to over come some of the skeptism in our lives. You will be amazed at what your heart will
tell you. Have a new book out. [Mod Edit: Spam] Please read it would like some out put on it.
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Re: Are paranormal experiences of internal or external origi

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:07 am

spiritimage2 wrote:You will be amazed at what your heart will tell you.

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