Are people fit to govern themselves?

Everything Political

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Zep Tepi » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:41 pm

I have to say I enjoyed reading those posts Torbjon, very interesting indeed. I am really interested in seeing you expand upon your solution btw.

Cheers,
Steve
.
Image
User avatar
Zep Tepi
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:59 pm


Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:12 am

um, well thanks Zep, but I gotta ask, how does one go about expanding upon "Just Do It"?

If I expand on that then I'M doing it For You *pokes* that kind of deletes the purpose, don'tcha think?

I can jump in the water and paddle around and say "see?" but what good does that do you? You're still on dry land.

The big stumbling block to the "Just Do It" mentality is Fear. This includes myself, I am FAR from fearless *laughs* Diving head first into uncharted waters is a Terrifying thing, no doubts about it... it could be shallow water, there could be sea monsters, you might sink like a rock, etc. NOBODY wants to be first.

Once a buncha kids jump in and start having fun, Okay, now I'LL jump in too, but until then? Forget it bub, you before me. Right? *grins*

So, I guess that qualifies as an expansion, yes? First baby step is to conquer your fears. No one can do that for you and it ain't easy.

Something to consider when attempting to do that is this old saying, which is of absolutely No Help Whatsoever when You happen to be the bozo in hot seat but seems to be a universal truth:

"For all things there is a first time"
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:22 am

Ah s'ok, I get it now! I misunderstood the meaning of the solution, thinking you were offering a specific solution to the world's problems. "Just do it" works too I suppose :)

Cheers,
Steve
.
Image
User avatar
Zep Tepi
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2150
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:32 am

"Just Do It" IS a specific solution to ALL problems... it's just really really Hard and Scary and Risky...

Just because I spew the dribble doesn't mean I can do it *laughs* Far From It! Sure, I try, but my fears get the best of me on a daily basis *shrugs* I'm not happy or proud of the fact but there you have it.

I'm reminded of something my dad told me long ago about philosophers versus scientists...

Philosophers will sit around the camp fire and endlessly debate the number of teeth in a horses mouth. And they are Not stupid about it, either. They will use the 'scientific method' in that they have a rough idea as the size of a horses tooth, the size of the horses mouth, they do the math and come up with a 'good' answer... maybe even the 'right' answer... but they will Never Know for Certain because it is just lame nutty crunchy totally SAFE chit chat around a campfire...

A scientist will get up, walk over to the horse, pry it's mouth open, stick his hand in and Count the bloody things.

That is a Very Risky thing to do. You might lose your hand. You might get kicked in the head and lose your life. Any one of a number of very nasty things may happen to you if you "just do it", but assuming you survive the encounter there is one thing that is for certain; you will know how many teeth are in a horses mouth.

Now I know that is a simplistic analogy but I think you get my point.

How do we make the world a better place to live in???

Well, we can sit around the campfire and debate it endlessly like a buncha Plato's and Socrates'... we're all pretty clever people so we'll probably come up with a 'good' answer... 'ell, maybe even the 'right' answer...

Or

We can get up and walk over there and just Do it...

Maybe we'll die trying...

Maybe we'll end up doing the 'wrong' thing and make things even worse...

Maybe nothing productive will come out of it and it will just be a big waste of time and energy...

Maybe Maybe Maybe

'Maybe' is the philosophers realm.

Don't get me wrong, pondering a problem is a beautiful thing and very much Required.... scientists will spend oodles of time pondering over what will happen when they mix these two chemicals together Before actually mixing them together... but that's the kicker. In the end they Still mix them together, they Do It... just to see what will Really Happen, even if alla the pondering, alla the paperwork, alla the computer simulations say Nothing Groovy is going to happen, they Still Try.

Because you won't know for Certain unless you try.

Look, I don't have a 'paint by numbers' solution because that would be 'wrong'.

NOBODY has a 'paint by numbers' solution nor will they ever have. No individual or groups of individuals can do this.

Think of civilization as a living organism, with individual humans being single cells within that organism. Individually there's not much to look at.. a little single celled lump of life swimming around in the petri dish, whoopdeedo.

You get larger groups of diverse cells together and something weird happens: The get Organized. They organize themselves into Organs. Okay, now we have something a little more funky to look at. We got muscle tissue, we got heart and lungs, we got bones... nice but still not alla That great. Each organ by itself is worthless and is totally Dependent upon all of the others for survival.

This is more or less where civilization is at now... a lot of groovy organs and nothing more. *shrugs*

Now is where the Magic comes in. Something that no one anywhere has EVER been able to figure out the how or whys of...

Put alla those organs together and Now you have something... something really special and unique. We go from disassociated lumps of life to an entirely new and completely different type of life form.

The little single celled 'people' are STILL unique individuals, we can rip them outta the host and put them in the petri dish and they survive Just Fine... but when put together into the Whole being that magic thing happens:

The whole is Greater than the sum of its parts.

People have been trying to create a Frankenstein since the dawn of time, and to my knowledge no one has ever succeeded. We can put All of the stuff into the petri dish but so far Nothing we've done has Forced them to get together into a whole being...

I feel that the same goes for civilization. No one or no thing can Force the individual units to get together and work towards a bigger unity. It seems that the individual units need to get together and solve that little problem on their own.

On an organic level this is happening All Of The Time. It seems to be an incredibly simple process... The cells get together and they "just do it" *shrugs*

I feel that on a civilization / global scale the process would be the same.
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sun May 04, 2008 3:37 am

Here's another way of looking at it... something on a less Biological level and on a more Human level.

It's something we've All heard before:

"All for one and one for all"

*dreamy*

Now how cool is THAT for a healthy global political philosophy?

rock on
twj
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Mon May 05, 2008 5:01 pm

torbjon wrote:Here's another way of looking at it... something on a less Biological level and on a more Human level.

It's something we've All heard before:

"All for one and one for all"

*dreamy*

Now how cool is THAT for a healthy global political philosophy?

rock on
twj


THAT is very cool indeed TWJ - very cool indeed!

And could very well be what someone of some significance is alleged to have said "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me", or something like that.

I've been able to see the Connection in most everything for quite a while now. At times it is overwhelming in it's beauty - at other times it is incredibly depressing. Such is Life.
"The only thing we found that makes the emptiness bearable is................... each other."

From the movie "Contact"

Shawnna's Reality
User avatar
Shawnna
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:30 pm

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby caleban » Tue May 06, 2008 3:59 am

And could very well be what someone of some significance is alleged to have said "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me", or something like that.


I think this is a stronger version:

This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you....
...Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
User avatar
caleban
In Search of Reality
In Search of Reality
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:33 am
Location: NM

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Wed May 07, 2008 5:20 am

Shawnna, Caleban:

Those concepts are great but the wording is of a 'spiritual' nature, and it has been my (pathetically worthless) experience that spirituality and politics just don't mix very well.

However, 'all for one and one for all' is a Battle Cry, it's militaristic, and again, it has been my (pathetically worthless) experience that War and Politics go together like bread and butter.

Having an external threat seems to be the most powerful uniting force, be it on a national level or on an organic level... when a body is threatened or invaded (be it a civilization or an individual) it really seems to get it's act together, so to speak.

Regans little speech about 'what would happen if we discovered evil aliens were about to attack us' was an Awesome concept. Honestly, would we be bickering about oil and geo/political borders if the Blue Meanies were about to swoop down on us, steal our women and eat our children?

Finding a suitable global uniter is no easy task though... although I'm not sure how much it really matters...

It seems that, on an organic level, something magical happens to biomass at around the 8 - 10 billion mark...

A fertilized egg stops being a little lump of life and starts to be something a little more recognizable...

A human brain stops being a randomly firing electro / chemical component and develops a sense of self complete with ego and id...

Human civilization just might pull together all by itself with out any help from an outside influence if the population density ever gets high enough...

My primary concern is that the current civilization will very likely burn through some rather important and very probably Crucial natural resources needed for survival Before the population density reaches a point where global awareness can take place Without outside influences pushing it along...

ergo my TRUC U! campaign.

one mind at a time, comrade, one mind at a time.

twj
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Wed May 07, 2008 7:12 am

torbjon wrote:Shawnna, Caleban:

Those concepts are great but the wording is of a 'spiritual' nature, and it has been my (pathetically worthless) experience that spirituality and politics just don't mix very well.

However, 'all for one and one for all' is a Battle Cry, it's militaristic, and again, it has been my (pathetically worthless) experience that War and Politics go together like bread and butter.

Having an external threat seems to be the most powerful uniting force, be it on a national level or on an organic level... when a body is threatened or invaded (be it a civilization or an individual) it really seems to get it's act together, so to speak.

Regans little speech about 'what would happen if we discovered evil aliens were about to attack us' was an Awesome concept. Honestly, would we be bickering about oil and geo/political borders if the Blue Meanies were about to swoop down on us, steal our women and eat our children?

Finding a suitable global uniter is no easy task though... although I'm not sure how much it really matters...

It seems that, on an organic level, something magical happens to biomass at around the 8 - 10 billion mark...

A fertilized egg stops being a little lump of life and starts to be something a little more recognizable...

A human brain stops being a randomly firing electro / chemical component and develops a sense of self complete with ego and id...

Human civilization just might pull together all by itself with out any help from an outside influence if the population density ever gets high enough...

My primary concern is that the current civilization will very likely burn through some rather important and very probably Crucial natural resources needed for survival Before the population density reaches a point where global awareness can take place Without outside influences pushing it along...

ergo my TRUC U! campaign.

one mind at a time, comrade, one mind at a time.

twj


I absolutely do understand what you're saying TWJ.

For me, it's hard NOT to see a spiritual connection in pretty much everything - even politics.

Yea.... I'm weird that way.
"The only thing we found that makes the emptiness bearable is................... each other."

From the movie "Contact"

Shawnna's Reality
User avatar
Shawnna
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:30 pm

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Wed May 07, 2008 7:14 am

caleban wrote:
And could very well be what someone of some significance is alleged to have said "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me", or something like that.


I think this is a stronger version:

This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you....
...Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.



I'd take that one further and say "............... lay down her life for her enemies."

Wouldn't want to give anyone the wrong impression now would I?

:P
"The only thing we found that makes the emptiness bearable is................... each other."

From the movie "Contact"

Shawnna's Reality
User avatar
Shawnna
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:30 pm

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Thu May 08, 2008 4:27 am

okay, cool, and put the two together:

..."lay down my life for my friends and enemies"

and then make the startling realization that your friends and your enemies are one in the same.

Again, think of it on an organic cellular level... with the human body being the happy whole:

if you take some cells from the body and put them in the petri dish they thrive just fine as individuals, right?

but if you take some cells from over Here and mix them with cells from over There, cell type A is going to devour cell type B... they are Enemies... and yet they simply Can't live without each other in the 'happy whole'... even though they be 'enemies' they are also the 'best of friends'...

Again, it's the IDIC thing... (infinite diversity in infinite combinations) embrace, accept, and Rejoice in our differences...

The concepts of 'friends and enemies' or 'good and evil' or 'lawful and chaotic' are Dividing concepts... it's a 'me and them' thing... which is very dividing... when we get to the point of 'US' then we have evolved into something More than the sum of the parts...

many folks perceive the 'US' thing as being a loss of individualism and on many levels, it Is (and that can be a terrifying thing for the individuals in question) but on an equal number of levels it is the Ultimate expression of individuality...

I like to think of it like an erector set. In the box it's just a bunch of nuts and bolts and bits of metal with holes in it. All very unique individual units...

But when you put them all together you have something very very different... now you have a THING... maybe a useful thing, or a pretty thing, or a waste of space thing, but a Different Thing...

And yet, despite this brand new, totally unique and totally different THING that is now in existence, the nuts are Still unique individual nuts doing nutty things, the bolts are still individual bolts doing bolty things, the bits of metal with holes it them are still bits of metal with holes them doing gods only know what bits of metal with holes them do... but no individual component has LOST its individuality in any way shape or form...

I would like to believe that civilization is smarter than a box of nuts and bolts... so far I haven't really seen any evidence of that but I'm trying *grins*

one mind at a time
twj
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 09, 2008 4:18 am

Totally agree with the 'enemy and friends' way of thinking as reflecting a divided view of Life. My idea is they are opposite sides of the same coin. Which I think is another way of saying what you've so eloquently written about, TWJ. If I'm wrong about that - just hit me upside the head.

:wink:

I read somewhere once a long time ago that the USA alone has the capacity to produce enough food to feed the entire world. Not sure if that is totally accurate but hearing that (true or not) made me wonder WTF we were doing NOT feeding the world if we truly could. That thought then led me to the realization that the WIFM attitude was more often in play than not.

WIFM being "what's in it for me". That approach is all too common in both human beings as well as the corporate and government entities they form.

My sense is 'we' could accomplish so much more as a species if we could look at the "us" in the world instead of the 'me' or 'them'.

And so it goes.....

S
Last edited by Shawnna on Mon May 26, 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The only thing we found that makes the emptiness bearable is................... each other."

From the movie "Contact"

Shawnna's Reality
User avatar
Shawnna
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:30 pm

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Fri May 09, 2008 6:26 am

No joke, detractors may argue if they wish but it's a losing battle for them. America could feed the world if it (we) wanted to. However, agribusiness profits would drop like a rock in the toilet as the bulk of the world (those who need it) can't afford the cost of the product plus shipping.

Prior to my stint in Alaska I lived in California (born and raised there) You should check out the stats on that state. It might amaze you how much food they produce.

Industry is driven by the concept of "what the market will bare". The generic formula for that is How Much Can We Charge + How Many People Will Pay That Amount = This Is How Much We Will Produce = Maximum Profits.

If we produce too much the price (and our profits) go down. If we don't produce enough the price does indeed go up but not enough to maximize our profits.

I spent eleven consecutive salmon seasons in Alaska. For six of those (over half) Icicle deliberately Under produced in order to keep the prices up. Icicle ALONE keeps approx. half a Billion pounds of canned salmon in warehouses Waiting for the prices to reach that point of Optimum Profits before dumping product onto the market.

Forget the fact that the people of the World are starving...

Forget the fact that AMERICANS are starving...

Profits baby, profits.

Even natural disasters like Katrina didn't spark a humanitarian effort on their (or anyones) part.

And Icicle is one of the Smaller companies, they are nothing compared to Trident or Peter Pan (ya, the peanut butter people, they do seafood too)

Here's something that will flip your lid.

A one pound can of Pink Salmon costs less than fifty cents to produce AND ship to anywhere in the world.

Price on the shelf? Two to Five bucks depending upon location and market.

California does the same thing. Can't think of the number of years Blue Diamond let nuts just rot on the ground because the price was low.

Nice for the share holders.

Too bad for Tiny Tim though.
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Fri May 09, 2008 7:14 am

So, HOW do you "just do it"?

You just do. And it's the HARDEST thing in the world to do. You might die. Is it worth Dieing for? You have to make that call, no one can force you into it...

The people who 'have' to do it, the ones who can / will make the actual impact and bring about Real Change are the people who do the actual Production and the Consumers.

IF you stop buying it, (boycott) things will change.

IF you stop producing it, (strike) things will change.

Both those things, in general, cost lives. It sucks but there you have it. In general they seem to cost Fewer lives than War, and they seem to cost fewer lives than doing nothing about "it" (whatever the "it" is) too.

Lawyers, politicians, management, they don't actually Produce anything of "value", nor or they a large enough consumer base to have much of an impact. Basically they are a worthless lot of bozos keeping us chained into Wage Slavery and terrified of the "unknown".

It's the lions share of civilization, the majority, the folks who Actually Make and Consume the stuff that have to "do it".

Folks are terrified of that though...

If I Do It, if I don't play the Wage Slavery game, well, THE MAN will come and take my house away, I won't be able to buy food, my children will suffer, I'll DIE!

*grins*

Now, if this were Any Other Subject in open forum, if we were chatting zero point energy, or anti gravity, or some other Whack subject, and some bozo made a claim like that, the "I'd Die" claim, you Know what we'd say:

Oh Really? You have PROOF of this? You, Personally, have Actually Done It? And you Died, huh? Interesting...

They May try to counter with the "erm, well, No,,, but a Friend of mine tried it once, sorta... and okay, he didn't actually Die, but he said it was real scary and hard and uncomfortable so he went back to being a Wage Slave again..."

To wit we would reply "well, ya, One Guy doing it isn't what we are discussing here though, is it? What if many Millions of guys did it... then what would happen?"

I've seen what people can do if they just do it.

In 1976 the nurses of Enloe Memorial Hospital went on strike for better working conditions better pay, and most importantly the right to organize into a union.

The strike lasted for over a year. At that time it was the longest nurses strike in American history.

My father helped to organize the strike, our house became strike headquarters.

My mother was The Bread winner for the family, she was a nurse at Enloe, she opted to Scab, AND, she opted to leave my father and I.

NO paycheck coming into the household for over a year.

Obviously we just curled up and died.

Obviously we just caved in to managements demands.

Obviously it was a futile and stupid thing to do...

Not.

Sure, Hundreds of families suffered big time. SOME folks lost cars, houses, material items... Everybody made due with Less for a while... times were Lean, there was even Hunger... there definitely was a whole lot of FEAR...

Nobody died though. No patients died, and no striking families died.

People rallied together and "did it"... after a while Non striking people from across the state joined forces and offered support and "did it"

In the end, things were better not only for the nurses of California, but for the entire health care system across the entire country.

Patient Care Improved Everywhere in America.

A small group of dedicated people "just doing it" made a drastic impact across a Nation.

"Just Do It" works.

But you have to do it.

No one can do it for you.
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
User avatar
torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 10, 2008 3:21 pm

Great post(s) TJ... you've got my vote! 8)

Torbjon 2012
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

PreviousNext

Google

Return to Politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron