Jesus & UFOs?

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Jesus & UFOs?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun May 04, 2008 11:34 pm

My standard declaimer should be well known to the regulars around here: I grew up in the Catholic faith, but I do not necessarily subscribe to all of their teachings, and requirements, to be complete "truth". That being said, it does not mean I am not willing to discuss and debate the Bible, especially Genesis 1, and several books in the New Testament. For I am of the firm belief (esp. thru my scientific research in Qabalah) that there are truths to be found in many books of the Bible. But I do not believe those truths are necessarily explained in a literal sense 100% of the time.

In point of fact, one thing that is well-known about mystical bodies of knowledge, and how they are passed-down, is that often these truths are purposefully encoded, and not spelled-out directly. Often, these encodings are not just to allow "simple people" to understand and therefore embrace these stories (and thus propagate them onward), but they can also be so encoded as to preserve DEEP connections of information. I propose that this is exactly what Masonic traditions do in all of their mystical information. So the question "is it possible there is encoded, mystical knowledge in some books of the Bible?" is a fair one, IMO.

All that being said, I am always intrigued by the verse in Acts of The Apostles that describes the ascension of Jesus Christ. I include the entire beginning of Acts below for clarity, with my focus phrases emboldened...

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Jesus Ascends to Heaven

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”


So are we to literally interpret that a "cloud received Him out of their sight"? Or is this a simple substitution for some type of technology that either the author did not understand, or the author believed the reader would not understand? Regardless of what you believe it may be saying in that passage, it is quite clear that we should expect to see Jesus return "in like manner" as he was seen to depart.

Did "God" send down a cloud to pick up his kid, or was Jesus technologically aided in this (and perhaps other) feats reported in his life????? And if so, can we expect this "cloud-like" device to return? Is there something "there"? And is it telling us what we THINK we want to hear....or something else?

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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby Chorlton » Mon May 05, 2008 10:07 am

OK I'll bite.
I find it confusing.
Did "a cloud received Him out of their sight" mean it took him from their view or it was done out of their view?, in which case how did they know he was taken up?.
There were also a lot of magicians around in those days!


Ive deleted about 4 paras as I was going off into one of my rants !
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon May 05, 2008 2:56 pm

Chorlton wrote:OK I'll bite.
I find it confusing.
Did "a cloud received Him out of their sight" mean it took him from their view or it was done out of their view?, in which case how did they know he was taken up?.


Good point. Now it is just my reading of it, and it could be wrong, but I would infer temporality from the phrases on either side of the one you point out. Namely, it would seem the events were ordered as-written:

1) while they watched, He was taken up
2) and a cloud received Him out of their sight
3) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up...

So again, just from my reading it would seem to me they watched him go upwards, then into a cloud. What confounds me is are we to ASSUME that he went upward unaided? A literal reading would say yes, but is there some relationship between the rising and the cloud? So many questions that could be asked/answered...

There were also a lot of magicians around in those days!


Yes, that is one of the possibilities I was getting at. I have always looked suspiciously at how carefully Jesus made certain that he enacted things that were in-line with prophecies (i.e. riding into the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath sitting on a donkey, etc.). There certainly seems to be enough anecdotal evidence to suggest the events leading up to his cruxifiction were all carefully planned. And that gets me wondering about whether he really died on the cross, or whether he only appeared to die...given that he "expired" in less than 1 afternoon on the cross while so many others lived on the cross for days to come before dying. I remain sceptical about UFOs, but not about unknown technologies that "someone" may have had access to such that they could assist Jesus in doing what he did.

Ive deleted about 4 paras as I was going off into one of my rants !


Hey, I'm OK with your rants (most of the time!) :). They get me thinking beyond where I have let my mind stop!

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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby ScaRZ » Mon May 05, 2008 3:43 pm

The way I understand the verses are the Apostles were standing looking upward as Christ was taken up within a cloud and then he was gone and they could see Christ no longer. Christ was completely taken out of their sight and they stood gazing up in amazement at what just occurred.
Christ will return in the same manor as he was taken. You will also see this event occur when the First Resurrection takes place and those who are part of the event are caught up in the clouds.

Are they literal clouds or are they something else?

Could they be literal clouds that surround something hidden within them?


Matthew 24:30

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man [coming in the clouds] of heaven with power and great glory.


Mark 13:26

And then shall they see the Son of man [coming in the clouds] with great power and glory.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be [caught up] together with them [in the clouds], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby zplix » Tue May 06, 2008 1:12 pm

You are barking up the wrong tree!

And I know--via prophecy :twisted: --that what I will say next will upset you!

And this is that the whole mythology, Christian, and its influences, Paganism, the central essense is not some actual ubermensch, and/or taken up to heaven in a UFO. But is really referring to an entheogenic experience. That you, and me can have now if we wish.

Ie., myth is not happening over there, or in the past in history, but is your actual life here. You can choose to disregard this and carry on stressing over absurd literalist interpretations or at least explore what I mean. You have the vast Internet before you. Be bold and begin researching
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 06, 2008 2:45 pm

zplix wrote: You can choose to disregard this and carry on stressing over absurd literalist interpretations or at least explore what I mean. You have the vast Internet before you. Be bold and begin researching


[IGNORE mode fully engaged]

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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby ryguy » Tue May 06, 2008 7:54 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And that gets me wondering about whether he really died on the cross, or whether he only appeared to die...given that he "expired" in less than 1 afternoon on the cross while so many others lived on the cross for days to come before dying.


Ray - I like the different angle on the passage. There are some other perspectives to consider as well - considering all of the things that the "cloud" could represent. I'm hoping to respond more later with some reflection.

I just wanted to note quickly referring to your comment above that you need to remember that unlike others who were left to die on the cross - prior to being hung there, Jesus was whipped, beaten, and spit on with a crown of thorns digging into his skull, and then had to carry his own cross to where he was hung. A fair exercise for the enquiring mind would be to compare Jesus' persecution to other "criminals" of his day.

According to the accounts, even after suffering that mutilation (with a spear in the side for good measure), he died on the cross after six hours, I believe. Actually a surprising length of time considering what his body had been put through.

Ive deleted about 4 paras as I was going off into one of my rants !


Hey, I'm OK with your rants (most of the time!) :). They get me thinking beyond where I have let my mind stop!

Ray


lol...deleting rants...welcome to the Spirituality forum... lol
I think I've deleted at least two novels worth since this place opened up. :)

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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby zplix » Tue May 06, 2008 10:24 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
zplix wrote: You can choose to disregard this and carry on stressing over absurd literalist interpretations or at least explore what I mean. You have the vast Internet before you. Be bold and begin researching


[IGNORE mode fully engaged]

Ray


oh dear Jesus, are you sulking?

:roll:

you have blindfold on and are fallin about
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby zplix » Tue May 06, 2008 10:28 pm

ryguy wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And that gets me wondering about whether he really died on the cross, or whether he only appeared to die...given that he "expired" in less than 1 afternoon on the cross while so many others lived on the cross for days to come before dying.


Ray - I like the different angle on the passage. There are some other perspectives to consider as well - considering all of the things that the "cloud" could represent. I'm hoping to respond more later with some reflection.

I just wanted to note quickly referring to your comment above that you need to remember that unlike others who were left to die on the cross - prior to being hung there, Jesus was whipped, beaten, and spit on with a crown of thorns digging into his skull, and then had to carry his own cross to where he was hung. A fair exercise for the enquiring mind would be to compare Jesus' persecution to other "criminals" of his day.

According to the accounts, even after suffering that mutilation (with a spear in the side for good measure), he died on the cross after six hours, I believe. Actually a surprising length of time considering what his body had been put through.

Ive deleted about 4 paras as I was going off into one of my rants !


Hey, I'm OK with your rants (most of the time!) :). They get me thinking beyond where I have let my mind stop!

Ray


lol...deleting rants...welcome to the Spirituality forum... lol
I think I've deleted at least two novels worth since this place opened up. :)

-Ry


OMG IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN LITERALY. IT IS MYTH...?

Unless you sulk too, and refuse to explore the truth. Let me inquire: HOW pray would a man being tortured to death
2000 years ago have any effect on your life> Actual meaning for your life?
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby ryguy » Wed May 07, 2008 1:57 pm

zplix wrote:Unless you sulk too, and refuse to explore the truth. Let me inquire: HOW pray would a man being tortured to death
2000 years ago have any effect on your life> Actual meaning for your life?


Good luck getting me to sulk. lol

As to your question (a great one by the way) - I'll answer it with several questions to you:

1. Do you think it's possible that Kennedy's assassination had an effect on anyone's life years later?
2. Do you think it's possible JFK's assassination had an effect on anyone's life years later?
3. Do you think Mahatma Gandhi's life and death had an effect on people's lives many years later?

If you have to ask such a question, I'm not sure you're really ready to understand the answer.

On another note, about claiming to have a handle on "truth" - let me give you a bible quote, cuz I'm sure you absolutely love to read quotes from the bible:

As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.


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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby zplix » Wed May 07, 2008 7:44 pm

ryguy wrote:
zplix wrote:Unless you sulk too, and refuse to explore the truth. Let me inquire: HOW pray would a man being tortured to death
2000 years ago have any effect on your life> Actual meaning for your life?


Good luck getting me to sulk. lol

Good man. That's what I likes to hear :wink:

As to your question (a great one by the way) - I'll answer it with several questions to you:

1. Do you think it's possible that Kennedy's assassination had an effect on anyone's life years later?

I was actually watching a very interesting video about the JFK assassination earlier on. Claiming it was a Masonic murder. Not the first time I have heard this, but this video seemed really on it.
Of course this murder affected us and still does. it was traumatic for one. AWFUL to see. Horrific. And it is the questions surrounding it that have not been in any way resolved, and this disturbing scenario carries on through 9/11. So yes, for many people this does affect us. For me in a kind of 'wanting to know an answer' kind of way, not in a religious or spiritual way. And yourself?

2. Do you think it's possible JFK's assassination had an effect on anyone's life years later?

Well you seem to have asked same question. Yes. For many Americans. Kennedy represented youth, and hope for some kind of future which was savagely cut off. So the whole scene does have amythical quality about it.

3. Do you think Mahatma Gandhi's life and death had an effect on people's lives many years later?

If you have to ask such a question, I'm not sure you're really ready to understand the answer.

Ghandi wasn't as 'perfect' as some people assume! he was just a human being for one. Why it is people always go on about him I dont know. If you are against war that's all you need. That is your own integrity. As a human.
But the Jesus myth is making out a literal man was a son of 'God'. This is literalized myth. So what has Jesus got to do with kennedy or Ghandi? Not clear?

On another note, about claiming to have a handle on "truth" - let me give you a bible quote, cuz I'm sure you absolutely love to read quotes from the bible:

As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.


-Ry


Well yeah, true. And it usually comes in pages, and/or mouths full of words words words. ENDLESS words.
I used to frequent this forum called sciforums. and they had their 'religious' section. Now you can visit it today, or tomorrow , in ten years, or 50 and your gonna see the same tired old literalist 'explorations' which really are empty of any meaning. its just bleedin words.
Although not a Jungian, he is quoted as saying something like 'people follow religion to avoid spirituality'--or meaning to that effect. meaning that the actual spritual experience isn't concerning to story from the past, no matter how dramatic, but can only ever be NOW. Your experience in altered state of perception, which is real spirituality.

Why do you find this so hard to accept? Or am I being preesumptious?
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby ryguy » Wed May 07, 2008 9:00 pm

zplix wrote:2. Do you think it's possible JFK's assassination had an effect on anyone's life years later?

Well you seem to have asked same question. Yes. For many Americans. Kennedy represented youth, and hope for some kind of future which was savagely cut off. So the whole scene does have amythical quality about it.


Oops..my mistake, I meant to use MLK as the second example.

Although not a Jungian, he is quoted as saying something like 'people follow religion to avoid spirituality'--or meaning to that effect. meaning that the actual spritual experience isn't concerning to story from the past, no matter how dramatic, but can only ever be NOW. Your experience in altered state of perception, which is real spirituality.

Why do you find this so hard to accept? Or am I being preesumptious?


A little presumptuous, but you're not the first - so it's no big deal. My own view of religion(s) is that there is a great deal of "goodness" in each of them - but there's inevitably the human hand as well, which leads to pride, ego, hypocrisy, and the whole gamut.

Our spiritual experience very much incorporates stories from the past, because essentially our ancestors, and their ancestors, once their consciousness leaves their physical form - it becomes part of the overall consciousness, creation, beingness, or God - whatever you choose to call it (it really doesn't matter). The past is very much present with us in everything that has life around us (and including us).

The story of Jesus boils down to a very simple question, and choice. You either believe he was who he said he was, or you don't. I'm certainly not here to convince you that he was telling the truth, and I see no sense in you trying to convince me of anything as well. But the cool thing is this - everything you've just said about spirituality is very much a part of what Jesus taught, whether or not you believe he was just a man. So - that's something, at least.

As far as what does he have to do with JFK, MLK, and Gandhi? You asked me how the story of Jesus has had a real effect on my life. I am saying that many people have had an effect on my life, including those examples I gave. We draw inspiration and guidance from those who've come before us - if we don't learn from the lessons they taught when they were here, we're doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again - and we're just a bunch of dead men walking.

I realize many people think that's exactly what we are. Quite simply, I don't. There is more to human existance than this bag of bones that we walk around in.

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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby zplix » Thu May 08, 2008 4:16 pm

Of course, there is one big difference between the men you mentioned and 'Jesus'. You actually saw them, either on TV, in real life. Whereas with the Jesus character, all you have is words from the past. There is no existing evidence that a man called Jesus actually existed. This is all I am saying.

Look. To cut to the chase. The problem I have with the Christian myth is that it can alienate us from animals, and Nature.

How so?

Well if comes from the tradition of the concept of a 'Creator' who creates nature. Ie., a creator who creates a created. hence 'he' cannot BE 'his' creation. Do you see what I mean?
So there is no understanding of the spiritual in Nature. In fact the Church has a bloody history of persecuting people who understand Nature to also have a spiritual aspect. You know, nature spirits and all that.
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby MrPenny » Thu May 08, 2008 5:35 pm

zplix wrote:Well if comes from the tradition of the concept of a 'Creator' who creates nature. Ie., a creator who creates a created. hence 'he' cannot BE 'his' creation. Do you see what I mean?


Uh,.....no. I don't.

You're making the mistake of bringing "God" down to our level of logic and understanding. The "God" of Christianity cannot be known or understood. Omniscience isn't even a particularly good descriptor; as it doesn't help define the existence that is unknowable from our existence. The "God" of Christianity is not a creation of a "Creator".....but an uber-existence that has been, is, and will be.

Ironically, you may be missing the depth of spirituality that is reflected in the Christian God.
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Re: Jesus & UFOs?

Postby ryguy » Thu May 08, 2008 5:59 pm

I never saw Plato or Socrates either...I've only read about him, but I don't doubt they existed or taught what they taught.

zplix wrote:Well if comes from the tradition of the concept of a 'Creator' who creates nature. Ie., a creator who creates a created. hence 'he' cannot BE 'his' creation. Do you see what I mean?
So there is no understanding of the spiritual in Nature. In fact the Church has a bloody history of persecuting people who understand Nature to also have a spiritual aspect. You know, nature spirits and all that.


If that's true, zplix, then why does one of the cultures closest to nature, the Native Americans, who believe that the spirit of the creator both created, and exists within and throughout all living things, and connects all of creation, refer to that energy and force as "the Creator"?

The teachings of Jesus closely mirror the teachings of some of the most well respected native spiritual thinkers. I understand where your coming from, and I realize that there's an anti-christ culture out there that needs to believe that christianity is wrong - but the truth is that it is no more wrong (or right) than most other religions who are centered around the truth that there is a force of creation outside of ourselves that we need to respect, love and honor, and yes - even give thanks to.

American Indian Spirituality

A common concept is that of a dual divinity: a Creator who is responsible for the creation of the world and is recognized in religious ritual and prayers a mythical individual, a hero or trickster, who teaches culture, proper behavior and provides sustenance to the tribe.

There are also spirits which control the weather, spirits which interact with humans, and others who inhabit the underworld. Simultaneously the Creator and the spirits may be perceived as a single spiritual force, as in the unity called Wakan-Tanka by the Lakota and Dakota.


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