Are the PTB behind ATS?

[elendal]

[Mod Edit: this topic was spilt off from viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1313]

OK, I haven't yet read this whole thread, just the first post by iskander, and the last one by Shawnna. The statement by Shawnna of "no hard facts" is the most interesting one. Maybe I can give some bits of information myself.

First of all, let me introduce myself. I am the same guy who started the following thread. I believe you will find it a very interesting read.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353254/pg1

Now that you have some impression of what I have done on ATS (an unforgivable crime that was not punished), I can continue where the story ended on ATS.

This post (which will be read by ATS owners, and the people behind them) is the third time I expect to be banned from ATS. This is actually the second time I am openly asking ATS owners... please, please, will you ban me this time?

What I mean is that I have made every imaginable "crime" towards ATS, and I still haven't been banned.

"Third time's a charm", they say. I guess posting here against ATS will certainly get me banned this time.

Or maybe not? I'm very interested to see how this will turn out. Either way, I will have some proofs for my suspicions... whatever happens.

Regarding suspicions, what I am about to do is yet another unforgivable crime - openly posting "private" (no such thing exists on Internet) conversations on ATS. For the purpose of "protecting" the identities of people I conversed with (they are well known to ATS owners, so no real protection exists, either), I will remove all references to them in my quotes (replaced with <xxx>).

So, here we go...

[u2u to me by now banned member...]

Subject: missing threads and posts
from: <banned member>
sent: 8-5-2008 at 09:00 AM

Hello elendal,

I have had a few threads and posts deleted and banned lately especially when they concern the integrity of ATS.

Only recently on a post ([removed by me]) I posted and had words with <moderator>! All my posts AND <moderator's> posts have disappeared and not one u2u to explain.

These guys have issues I think!

Take a look at this............

This was made at Open Minds Forum

Re: Mars anomalies
« Reply #15 on Jan 9, 2007, 1:08pm »

Simon Grey (one of the 3 ATS owners) posted today at RU.

"Of course ATS is a destination for serious discussion, evidence of that can be seen in that we have collaborated with NASA as one example on clarifying confusion surrounding images of Mars."

I wonder what Clark McClelland a retired senior NASA official here would say about ATS' investigative prudence in collaborating with NASA for "clarifying confusion surrounding images of Mars"?

Though this was moved to a private forum I have since learned it is in fact true and that So and Springer post more at RU than they do here in a forum called ATS Watch...

From SO at RU...
Post-banned until we learn more of his intentions direction from him.
http://www.realityuncovered.com...

Also this from Springer

http://www.realityuncovered.com...

What do you make of this? Its info I received from another member! Your views would be appreciated.

[my u2u as reply to <banned member>...]

Subject: Re: missing threads and posts
from: elendal
sent: 14-5-2008 at 12:00 PM

I didn't expect to be coming back to ATS, but I've seen something interesting and came back to send a u2u. That's the only reason I was able to see your u2u to me.

Yes, very interesting. I don't see the exact links in your u2u. You probably just copied and pasted the page. Could you copy the links on that page and send them to me?

As I said it in that thread, SkepticOverlord definitely has intention to lull the people into false security. Now, the reason can be as benign as simply wanting to earn more cash from commercials on the site (if you own a site, especially a forum, you definitely want people to come forward and generate more hits; the more people are around, the more cash you get), or it could be something more sinister.

I have no proof of either, but the intention itself if quite enough for me to know who and what I'm dealing with. Nothing good, that's for sure.

On a side note, I noticed a strange behavior of u2u messages... Sometimes they are marked as read even though I haven't read them myself.

I discussed this matter with another member (which, it seems, has been taken to the depths of black projects several weeks ago; by her own wish, I must add; I was just an unexpected middle-man in the process). After that discussion, a complete opposite thing started happening to u2u's. Even after I had read them, and refreshed the page, and logged off and back on, they wouldn't be marked as read...

My guess (from my programming experience) was that in that particular period someone working on the ATS' server code was given instructions to conceal the reading of u2u's by a third party (owners, or high-level moderators). That person had no time to put the real code into place, and he/she just "patched" it, causing the opposite, but still highly suspicious behavior.

When I put all this circumstantial evidence on a pile, what I get is a picture of a well organized forum, with payed programmers working on it (the money has to come from somewhere), but with highly dubious intentions...

To me that smells of ABC agency paying the bills, while the owner is only asked to take care of the "house".

Never mind that house is bugged, just feel comfortable inside. We have such beatuies and wonders around. Feel at ease. Nothing to worry about...

One thing I've learned over time is that I should always assume someone is watching over my back. At first, it can generate a lot of fear, but fear is the first obstacle on the path of man of knowledge (a term from Carlos Castaneda's work; here's the excerpt from the first link I got on Google: http://tantricplanet.com/).

So, you see, even with all the wrong intentions of site owners, ATS was a great place to learn new things. SkepticOverlord turned out to be a very interesting "petty tyrant" and "worthy opponent" (both terms from Castaneda's work).

I thank SkepticOverlord for the oportunity he gave me by deleting that thread (in case he's reading this ).

Other than saying that, I feel no obligation to him, or to any other owner or moderator here [on ATS].

I am only interested in people, not "institutions", whatever they like to call themselves.

As a consequence of me seeing on the following day that this member was banned, I turned to the <moderator> as a source of confirmation or denial of what <banned member> was telling me.

[my u2u to <moderator>...]

Subject: <banned member> banned & u2u's
from: elendal
sent: 15-5-2008 at 07:37 AM

Since the owners of ATS (obviously) still don't have a clue who they are dealing with, and whoever is telling them what to do has (also obviously) told them to take the heat and don't do anything stupid at this time, I am still able to send u2u's.

This may be against privacy matters I usually hold respect for, but you were mentioned in this particular u2u, and the member who sent it to me was banned on the same day he sent it to me. I certainly hope this is not an infectious disease, and that you won't be banned in the same manner, but I can give no guarantees.

[I repeat here <banned member's> u2u to me]

Please, observe that he created this thread 6 days before his u2u to me. Thus, that particular thread was not the reason he was banned. Again, he was banned on the same day I replied to him.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark..."

And, here's my reply to <banned memeber>. I really don't know if he had the time to read it, and I would really hate to see it wasted, so I'm sending it to you since you were the only person <banned memeber> mentioned in his u2u.

[I repeat here my reply to <banned memeber>]

Oh, yes... just a little reminder for SkepticOverlord and the "team" behind him.

I expected to be banned, but you didn't do it.

Why? That's the only question I have for you.

I already know the answer, but I would like others to know it as well. Maybe you could send it to <moderator> first, and then distribute it on ATS's front page?

Just kidding... Of course you won't do any such thing... Will you?

Anyway, this time I am leaving not just the public arena of ATS, but also the private one, so please, please.... will you ban me this time?

I mean, how many "rules" do I have to break to be banned here?! It's just ridiculous!

After moderator asked me what I wanted with my u2u, I replied with this...

[my u2u to <moderator>...]

Subject: Re: <banned member> banned & u2u
from: elendal
sent: 15-5-2008 at 08:31 AM

Keep it short and simple though. Im just a Forum Moderator

Confirmation or denial that you discussed the matter of disappearing threads with <banned member>. I believe that's short and simple.

I also fogot to put the link to <banned member's> thread I was referring to. Sorry about that.

[removed by me]

Also, you seem to think I am <banned member> as well. I can assure you that I'm not, but I can't prove it, can I? Neither can you prove that you are not into it all with ATS owners, can you? We are here in the same position after all.

So, confirmation or denial. That's enough.

P.S. for programmers on ATS
Something should really be done about user interface for u2u's. One can hardly see if one missed something. A u2u preview feature would be very nice...

After being given a highly indirect (but still readable) confirmation for <banned member's> claims by this <moderator>, I replied with this...

Subject: Re: <banned member> banned & u2u
from: elendal
sent: 15-5-2008 at 11:01 AM

But suppose ATS is involved in a conspiracy: A conspiracy to do what? To let people post about all sorts of alternative topics?

Oh, no. Not consipracy. Simply a psychological laboratory.

It's useful (at least for the serious agencies out there) having all kinds of different personalities interacting among themselves. Something like mice in a maze. And I very much doubt those "white coats" have any good intentions towards the mice. This is strictly from a "higher perspective" point of view, of course.

But, from an even higher perspective, it's also useful to watch "white coats" experimenting on mice. At some point the "white coats" became mice themselves, and they didn't even see it. Heck, they still don't see it, however hard one tries to open their eyes. What happens to mice will happen to them as well. And very soon, from what I could gather.

Anyway...

Thanks for answering my question. I appreciate it.

I also know it's dangerous to be in the middle of the pyramid structure. Pressures from above, pressures from below. It's not a pleasant place to be.

Best wishes, and take care.

Suffice it to say that <moderator> didn't believe a word I said in my last reply. But, those who have some better information do have some idea about what I'm talking about.

So, you see, I am really conducting an experiment here. Exactly as I have stated. Those with good observational skills will notice (after reading my other posts on ATS) that I have always stated my intentions before bringing them into reality. This is a prerequisite for stalkers (Castaneda's term). Nothing is concealed, but enough mist is left around to not disclose the moves completely in advance. Whoever is smart enough will know exactly what is going to happen, once intention has been openly declared.

I must emphasize here - this is not deception only because it plays on the card of the stupidity of the other side. You tell them exactly what you are going to do, knowing in advance that they will misinterpret it according to their own understanding (which is highly flawed, by the way). So, in essence, you teach them how to think clearly, and not be misguided by false preconceptions they were forced to learn their whole lives.

Now, the really, really interesting thing is that PTB's use the same strategy themselves. They always tell people what they are about to do. Believe it or not! The (willing) stupidity of the people is what allows them to get away with their plans.

Funny how a tool can be turned around against PTB's themselves, ain't it?

How does that saying go...?

"A stick has two ends..."

To conclude... In a nutshell, this post is an experiment performed by a mouse, on the "white coats". Let us see how they respond.

P.S.
Another saying comes to mind...

"Damned if you do, damned if you don't..."

(ban me from ATS, that is )

[Chorlton]

What I mean is that I have made every imaginable "crime" towards ATS, and I still haven't been banned.

Just post the truth like I and AD did and theyll soon ban you, however now one of their cash cows is gone (Loony Lear) youll have to try poking some of the other cash cows, or making Springer look a prat (that isnt difficult at all either) that will get you a ban, or if you dent his enlarged ego, or attack the 'Cult of Springer'

Seriously, what it all comes down to is PROFIT. ATS exists to make money, no altruistic b.s. about 'uncovering the truth' its about making money, and anything that might upset their applecart or cashcows is immediately trampled on. They encourage the nutcases and fruitcakes because it increases their stats and click-through and they do NOT like hard line sceptics like me and AD who wont put up with total bollocks posted by a large majority of ATS sheeple.

[elendal]

Just post the truth like I and AD did and theyll soon ban you, however now one of their cash cows is gone (Loony Lear) youll have to try poking some of the other cash cows, or making Springer look a prat (that isnt difficult at all either) that will get you a ban, or if you dent his enlarged ego, or attack the 'Cult of Springer'.

Hey, thanks for these advices! I guess I just have to wait for Springer to spring into this thread with his reply to me... and off we go!

Seriously, what I had in mind was something different. My "working hypothesis" is that the trio doesn't actually own ATS. They are just there to keep "the house clean". The real owners understand what I'm talking about, and they don't want me to be banned. The reasons can vary. Actually, I can think of several right now:

1. good source of information
2. good predictions that turned out to be true (the US problem with China being at the top, but others are still waiting to come true)
3. good source of ridiculous theories that can be used to further misguide the people - one of my posts dealt exactly with this; in essence, how things I had previously said were used to come up with bogus UFO stories; exactly the same expressions, terms, and ideas were presented as coming from credible sources; unfortunately for PTB's... it turned out to be true... truer than they expected.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/vie ... pid4107038

Unfortunately, the central post that resided on another forum was deleted. It is the same post I am referring to in my "unforgivable" thread on ATS. Again, such thing has never happened on that other forum in almost 3 years I was there.

Anyway... My point is that the trio is not allowed to ban me (now that I've said it in plain words, all bets are off, though) by the real owners of ATS. And if the real owners give the sign to the trio to ban me (my posts must really hurt, Springer, SkepticOverlord... and whoever is the third one... you have my sympathies... honestly) then they will have to face much worse things ahead.

And the worst thing is - they don't know what it will be. The power of unpredictability... incredibly scary for anyone wishing to exercise control...

Well, at least they have the chapters, and the last act in the play (all of them being given in a veiled form in that "unforgivable" thread on ATS, but still there, openly stated)... Destruction, Cleaning, The Last Effort, The Nova.

But, the play is still on. Patience is a virtue, they say. Maybe I'll get banned for simply mentioning Springer here (hey, I have to try everything! ).

P.S.
"Simon Gray
born Oct. 21, 1936, Hayling Island, Hampshire, Eng.
[...] British dramatist whose plays, often set in academia, are noted for their challenging storylines, witty, literary dialogue, and complex characterizations." (from that LKJ blog post)

Priceless!

It seems CIA (presumably) hasn't lost their sense of humor...

[You Can Call Me Ray]

Those with good observational skills will notice (after reading my other posts on ATS) that I have always stated my intentions before bringing them into reality. This is a prerequisite for stalkers (Castaneda's term). Nothing is concealed, but enough mist is left around to not disclose the moves completely in advance. Whoever is smart enough will know exactly what is going to happen, once intention has been openly declared.

I like this guy/gal!!! Right with ya, elendal! I've read Castaneda, and it is from his writings and some others (Dr. Wayne Dyer speaks of intention a lot too) that I had developed my idea that we are moving from the Age of Information into the Age of Intention.

I must emphasize here - this is not deception only because it plays on the card of the stupidity of the other side. You tell them exactly what you are going to do, knowing in advance that they will misinterpret it according to their own understanding (which is highly flawed, by the way). So, in essence, you teach them how to think clearly, and not be misguided by false preconceptions they were forced to learn their whole lives.

Perfect. I have done similar things in my exchanges with Dan Smith. It is amazing to me the power of this technique, where you can tell them what you are going to do, and they are so wrapped up in their ego (or what they think they are going to do) that they can completely ignore the path you are leading them down.

Now, the really, really interesting thing is that PTB's use the same strategy themselves. They always tell people what they are about to do. Believe it or not! The (willing) stupidity of the people is what allows them to get away with their plans.

You've hit on a major apect of the Age of Intention, IMO. We must make no mistake that the "medium" within which we "close the loop of intention" is INFORMATION. Manipulation of information is how people achieve their intentions. Plain and simple. And it should be noted that in the landscape of information, truth or falseness has no meaning. Those terms are powerless in a true field of information, and they ONLY gain power when you add something to the mix: Verification and Validation of any information! It is V&V which concerns itself with truth, and thus V&V is really the ONLY weapon one can use against being manipulated via information. It is why "true believers" are ignorantly whistling as they walk by the graveyard...and also why "skeptics" will always "win out" because we demand V&V, where a true believer seems satisfied with "well, IT COULD BE TRUE! YOU CAN'T PROVE IT IS FALSE!"

Welcome to RU!
Ray

[ryguy]

Hi elendal,

Great post - thanks for sharing your ATS experiences with us. I have to say, just based on what we've gone through over the past several years dealing with "spooks", much of what you are saying about the psychology of these phenomenologists (can you say "inflated egos"???) is right on the money.

If you don't mind, I'd like to offer some friendly input.

The Danger of Paranoia

The danger that you have to avoid like the plague, however, is not to allow yourself to draw connections that simply don't exist. These folks are elitist, and they believe that you are one of the multitudes "chained" in Plato's cave - at the mercy of the shadows on the wall. The problem is that most of the paranoia here doesn't come from any actions of the PTB or spooks themselves - the paranoia comes from a human weakness to draw connections where there's no solid evidence a connection exists.

Now - you are obviously drawing a solid line between the PTB and ATS. The best I can do, personally, is draw a dotted line between a spook and ATS - and that is a very faint dotted line of friendship, mind you. Not anything near a solid line of real cooperation and/or support at the direction of any government entity. In fact, if I had to put my own opinion down on paper and sign it at the bottom - I'd say ATS is run by three guys who sometimes find themselves tripping and stumbling all over themselves trying to protect the name/brand of ATS from internet search engine spiders/bots/etc... Nothing at all related to the PTB at all.

The "truth" behind the ownership of ATS

They are doing whatever they can to improve the net worth of the corporation, they are trying to "think outside the box" and be proactive with events/games/marketing/etc... And sometimes, being a young corporation, they can do things that backfire. They can be somewhat heavy-handed with some of the bannings, and enough people have reported that U2U's are being read, or account credentials appeared to change on their own - that we can probably safely conclude there's enough circumstantial data to strongly support the hypothesis that someone is reading private U2U's.

However - the behavior of U2U's remaining unread after reading is, in fact, from a known glitch in the system where mods sometimes send out mass emails to members - and those emails remain unread. As long as these messages remain in your inbox - weird and wild things happen. It's always a good idea in the ATS U2U system to immediately delete mass emails.

When a computer virus becomes a "government conspiracy" - it's time to take a cold shower

But therein lies the major problem in this arena. Odd things happen with computers and internet scripts. There are bugs, viruses, etc... Not government sanctioned - but legitimate bugs. Now - there may be a mountain of legitimate claims about the banning practices and behavior about ATS administrators/owners. However I always cringe when I see people crossing that grey line into the area of extreme paranoia where even system bugs or odd software glitches become part of the "government conspiracy" hypothesis.

And, as a word of advice from someone who, at one point, started down that frightening road - that is exactly where "they" (the legitimate spooks, who are simple men btw...without any real power to hurt you) want you to be. They can only hurt you through psychologically deceptive means - by using your own fears and paranoia against you, to make those things feed themselves and turn you into a drooling and babbling patient at a mental hospital.

The weapon against Paranoid Conspiracies - remember EASY (Evidence Always Saves You)

The core defense is to only base your hypothesis on things that you've seen proof about - and anything else anyone says, writes, emails, phones, or otherwise communicates to you is simply b.s., and should be filed in the b.s. folder until such time as it can be confirmed - or not.

When you get to that point...where nothing said to you can generate paranoia or fear of any sort - you will finally find it very easy to recognize the path leading to truth. Paranoia and baseless speculation has no place there. It's also a path that "they" hope you do not find - they really prefer you to be speculative and paranoid. .

-Ry

[TheSkepticOverlord]

Sorry folks, Springer/Mark alerted me to this bit of humor... so I suppose we'll be doing our best in some sort of tag-team damned-if-we-do and damned-if-we-don't response effort that no one listens to anyway.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353254/pg1
Now that you have some impression of what I have done on ATS (an unforgivable crime that was not punished), I can continue where the story ended on ATS.

Okay... I'm not seeing it... what's the "crime"?

please, please, will you ban me this time?

Is that what you really, really, really want?

What I mean is that I have made every imaginable "crime" towards ATS, and I still haven't been banned.

I apologize for not noticing what your "crime" was and not sending the appropriate punishment in your general direction... uh... what was the crime again?

I will have some proofs for my suspicions... whatever happens.

Ah, finally, someone with proof... so... what is it?

[elendal]

If you don't mind, I'd like to offer some friendly input.

I don't mind at all. I like inputs, friendly or otherwise. Both can help me learn much about the world I live in.

The Danger of Paranoia

The danger that you have to avoid like the plague, however, is not to allow yourself to draw connections that simply don't exist...

Ah, but you are stepping too far back for me.

You Can Call Me Ray got it right when he/she talked about "Verification and Validation". Great observation there, I must say. I usually don't agree with people agreeing with me because I simply don't like to do it, but he/she did give some new and useful input, so I'm agreeing with that. Thank you, You Can Call Me Ray (and, by the way, I'm a guy ).

To further his/her thoughts...

"Verification and Validation" is a Game you can't possibly win. Let me give you a perfect example of what I have in mind. Ever heard of Goedel's incompleteness theorems? I posted about it on ATS.

Since I can already predict some people may accuse me of directing too much attention to ATS, I will repeat the whole post here (so you don't have to click on that link below; repeating my words is also a security measure, by the way).
(http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... em=elendal for reference)

Originally posted by MITCHEL
Theorists claim it ultimately is not possible to prove anything...

Whether you're aware of it or not, you've hit the worst nightmare of formal logic and mathematics in general - Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

It actually goes a little bit different than what you've stated here.

It's not that you cannot prove anything, it's that there will always be something that you cannot prove. The proof itself depends on the set of axioms (facts taken for granted), wihich can be consistent, or inconsistent. With inconsistent set you can prove anything, so that's not very useful. With consistent set you're stuck with unprovable theorems.

In simple words - what you choose to belive in in the first place, determines what you can prove and what you can't. But (and there's the kicker in the mathematical a**), even if you choose an infinite set of axioms, you will still end up with things that you just can't prove.

What Gödel showed is that in most cases, such as in number theory or real analysis, you can never create a complete and consistent finite list of axioms, or even an infinite list that can be produced by a computer program. Each time you add a statement as an axiom, there will always be other true statements that still cannot be proved as true, even with the new axiom. Furthermore if the system can prove that it is consistent, then it is inconsistent.

It is possible to have a complete and consistent list of axioms that cannot be produced by a computer program (that is, the list is not computably enumerable).

Source (Wikipedia) : http://tinyurl.com/qdv7y

While Wikipedia's reference is mostly for those interested in mathematics, the following site explains it in simpler terms.

In 1931, the Czech-born mathematician Kurt Gödel demonstrated that within any given branch of mathematics, there would always be some propositions that couldn't be proven either true or false using the rules and axioms ... of that mathematical branch itself. You might be able to prove every conceivable statement about numbers within a system by going outside the system in order to come up with new rules and axioms, but by doing so you'll only create a larger system with its own unprovable statements. The implication is that all logical system of any complexity are, by definition, incomplete; each of them contains, at any given time, more true statements than it can possibly prove according to its own defining set of rules.

Source : http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html

Anyway, those are really interesting theorems. Especially considering that science, which is 100% based on mathematics, is usually thought to (some day) explain (or describe) all of the Reality.

Science may actually be able to "explain" "something" some day, but it will never be able to prove those "explanations"... I believe that's what you were aiming at.

This actually makes science just a little bit better than religion which is 100% based on faith (or sets of axioms, mathematically speaking; simply facts taken for granted, remember?).

The only advantage of science over religion is - experiment. The rest is all the same, only in different packages.

Once again I come to the same conclusion - the only thing that matters is personal experience.

Everything else is based on axioms... which someone, somewhere, told us to just take as "Truths".

So, you see... We have a BIG problem here. Without sufficiently complete set of axioms, there is not even a theoretical possibility to prove that ATS is run by CIA (or some other agency, but CIA seems to be "the prime suspect"). Some people may prefer to waste their time on trying to prove unprovable, but I'm definitely not one of them. What I do instead, is treat ATS as a "black box" (it's an engineering term, so feel free to look for it on the net).

What I've been doing is "probing" the "black box" of ATS. And I've been doing it so fiercely as to leave absolutely no doubt in my mind (and anyone else's who's interested in the subject) who is "running the show". I've collected enough data to prove to me (and, again, anyone else interested in the subject) that the trio is not running ATS. They simply can't do a squat without being approved by someone higher in the hierarchy. The fact that those higher in the hierarchy don't give a damn about trio's feelings is exactly what I was expecting to find with my probes. It's one of inherent attributes of "Pyramid Schemes", or "Hierarchies of Power" (I use both terms interchangeably).

Now, what people must understand here is that my probing is telling me as much about the object I am probing, as is telling "the object" about me. It's a two way road (it always is). But, since I know myself and I know my enemy (read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" for reference), I expect to win this battle. My enemy knows himself, but he doesn't know me. Thus I am expecting him to lose this battle.

You may ask yourselves now, "If he knows all that, why the heck is he telling it? Why is he teaching his enemy how to defeat him?"

Ahhh... The mystery!

There is really no mystery here. CIA, NSA, Homeland Security... Blah-blah-super-secret-unimaginably-terrifying-agency... Just children playing in the sand. And I did say this on ATS, though I had someone even more dangerous, and unimaginably powerful in mind - Illuminati.

These children are about to do something seen as unforgivable by "grown-ups" out there (yes, I do mean alieeeens). Both unforgivable by the "good" and by the "bad" grown-ups. So, you see, both the "good" and the "bad" are against these children, and the only difference is whether they are willing to give the children more time or not. Since I don't care (I already know how it will end either way; that is, whether children grow up or not), I am willing to give more time, and (as a bonus!) teach them some things. I will not interfere with either "good" or "bad" side doing what they intent to do. I gave ATS (and through it, the people behind it) the chance, but they let it pass. In this world, once a chance is missed, it's missed forever. Sorry about that, but that's reality.

So, what is so unforgivable? This time it would be simply to much text to quote (the whole page on ATS), so I'll put a link, and just give a comment of - "The Borg".

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread202877/pg8

So, you see, the children are about to meet "the big boys", and I'm very interested in seeing how they will cope with that. Fear is the first obstacle on the path of the man of knowledge. I've said it before, and I'm repeating it again. If you haven't noticed, I've been instilling so much fear that only a blind person wouldn't see it. This is the reason. If you don't get over your fears, you'll never be able to continue further down the path.

Now - you are obviously drawing a solid line between the PTB and ATS. The best I can do, personally, is draw a dotted line between a spook and ATS - and that is a very faint dotted line of friendship, mind you.

Nothing wrong with that. Will I surprise you if I tell you that I already explained that on ATS?

On a side note, the fact that I already have everything prepared is just a simple consequence of choosing strategically best moves in advance. I didn't know I would use it some day, but I knew it would certainly come in handy. So it did.

What I spoke about was possibility and probability.
(http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... em=elendal for reference; there's some problem with mixed-up threads when I use a direct post link; now, that's a true bug! a mix up of data in a database, due to overuse of ban/delete/modify privileges... )

Originally posted by skept!cal
But the minute you starting sayin this is an acutality then I (and when i say I im not refering to you or anyone else simply what I personally need) need some sort of trace evidence to support your claim..I dont think im completely unreasonable for asking for such a request?

No, there's nothing unreasonable about asking for a proof, but your comment on saying something is an actuality is an indication that you still don't get my point.

Try telling a quantum physicist electron is a particle... He'll just look at you strangely, like you're demented or something, and then either walk away or laugh.

Now imagine you are living 100 years ago. You are telling another physicist (a classical one, QM came later) the same thing. He would probably say that you are one smart student of physics who understands all the intricacies of the subject. Special relativity was published in 1905, and by 1908 there was "nothing essentially new to be discovered in physics".

Then came QM, and it blew up people's minds. You wouldn't believe how passionately classical/relativistic physicists tried to disprove QM. Even Einstein himself believed there was something wrong with QM, that it can't possibly be true, and he tried for the rest of his life to prove it wrong and formulate his own Theory of Everything. Here's one of Einstein's famous blunders regarding QM:

"I, at any rate, am convinced that He [God] does not throw dice." (Einstein, published in 1969)

Einstein's correspondence with Niels Bohr is a famous one. Look it up. You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Ein ... s_Einstein

But QM is really nothing compared to what reality really looks like. That is going to blow up people's minds for sure... once again .

What I'm telling you is that your reasoning is just like classical one. You have reality, you have "something" there which you can define as one thing or another, and which can be proven to exist or not to exist.

QM says that whatever that "something" is, it exists and it doesn't exist at the same time. That "something" you can't even begin to imagine, let alone define... except by a name to let others know what-the-heck you're talking about.

Do you see the difference between your reasoning and mine?

What will come after QM is that that "something" exists and doesn't exist at the same time in all places and all times at once. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable (having a probability greater than 0). So you can have a thing that can possibly exist, but has the probability of existence equal to 0.

And that's just this physical Universe we live in. What about what's outside of this Universe? What "laws of nature" "rule" over there? Don't even try to go there with your logic. You'll lose your mind in a second.

But, since none of this is in any way related to this thread, I'll drop the subject here and now.

It's been and interesting discussion, though. I hope you got something from it. I certainly have - a better understanding of skeptics.

The "truth" behind the ownership of ATS

They are doing whatever they can to improve the net worth of the corporation, they are trying to "think outside the box" and be proactive with events/games/marketing/etc...

They (the trio) certainly are doing all of that (it's a free ride, so why wouldn't they), but that's not the point. They (the agency behind ATS) are also doing much more "behind the curtain". That is the point.

However - the behavior of U2U's remaining unread after reading is, in fact, from a known glitch in the system where mods sometimes send out mass emails to members - and those emails remain unread.

Ah, but you either forget or haven't done enough research on me (I left plenty of information on ATS and other forums). I am a software designer. I know how bugs behave. Your explanation would make every sense if it weren't for the timing. Never before and never after that period u2u's behaved like that. What a strange coincidence!
(http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... em=elendal for reference)

And, as a word of advice from someone who, at one point, started down that frightening road - that is exactly where "they" (the legitimate spooks, who are simple men btw...without any real power to hurt you) want you to be.

And that's exactly where I want you to be, but for completely opposite reasons. While they try to control through fear, I try to liberate through fear. The only difference is intention. I am trying to "prove unprovable" here, so you will have to forgive my constant repeating of (for me at least) obvious things.

The weapon against Paranoid Conspiracies - remember EASY (Evidence Always Saves You)

Or... puts you into a never-ending logical loop of futile search for "evidence".

Forget about "evidence". Personal experience is the only true knowledge there is.

The core defense is to only base your hypothesis on things that you've seen proof about - and anything else anyone says, writes, emails, phones, or otherwise communicates to you is simply b.s., and should be filed in the b.s. folder until such time as it can be confirmed - or not.

Exactly the point I am trying to make. The whole humanity has been trapped into a never-ending loop of formal logic. By intent, and on purpose, by powers 99.9% of humanity has absolutely no idea about. Formal logic is an incredibly predictable and controllable tool - a perfect stage for takeover. Remember what I said? "The power of unpredictability... incredibly scary for anyone trying to exercise control." You can't even imagine how scary.

Let me see if I can find again some "evidence" that PTBs are now in a "panic mode on steroids"...

Ah... here's the first one (it's a direct consequence of Chinese counterfeit hardware problems every US agency has; has had?):
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/05/t ... ons-w.html

And here's the more recent one (it's a direct consequence of PTBs being aware that time is rapidly running out):
http://uk.reuters.com/article/lifestyle ... 1020080520

Plenty of "evidence" out there. You just have to know how to look at it.

[elendal]

I'm not seeing it... what's the "crime"?

That's a good one SkepticOverlord!

Unforgettable!

OK, I suppose you don't see any crime in this RU thread either?

You'd make a lousy policeman, I tell ya!

[I intentionally separated the sentences here. After all, maybe it was too much information that prevented you from seeing the crime. This way it's all nice and simple (personal insults, that is)].

please, please, will you ban me this time?

Is that what you really, really, really want?

Ah, but how many times I have to repeat!? YES! :rofl:

I will have some proofs for my suspicions... whatever happens.

Ah, finally, someone with proof... so... what is it?

Please, look at my previous post for answer.

:rofl:

What a Game we have here! Trying to use logic on little ol' me!?

Sorry people... let me just wipe my tears... ahh... it's simply too much fun...!

OK... I've pulled myself together...

So, let's get back to business.

Can you see the crime? Anyone? :rofl: (again!)

... by the way, people behind ATS... If you want to continue this Game, I suggest sending someone with better rhetorical and logical skills. Otherwise, I won't even answer... though it's such fun!

[elendal]

Oh, one more thing, SkepticOverlord...

I suppose they've told you "You created this mess! Now YOU clean it up!", haven't they?

Just in case you didn't notice, my request is giving you a way out. It is not meant to let you choose to step out (that's not how this Game works), but to make those above you dump you for this particular purpose. They have to switch to someone else, or the Game ends (with a clear "winner", I must add ; not that I give a damn about winning or losing... but I know you do! ).

Now, they may, or may not, do such a thing. We'll just have to wait and see...

[TheSkepticOverlord]

Can you see the crime? Anyone? :rofl: (again!)

Still fuzzy. Your previous post is rather long and rambling (understatement). How about just coming out and saying your "crime" succinctly in twenty words or less?

[Chorlton]

Can you see the crime? Anyone? :rofl: (again!)

Still fuzzy. Your previous post is rather long and rambling (understatement). How about just coming out and saying your "crime" succinctly in twenty words or less?

Why should he? You lot arent succint or even clear.
I still dont know why I was banned as there now seems to be several reasons given. Not that I actually give a stuff of course.

[TheSkepticOverlord]

Not that I actually give a stuff of course.

Okay good, problem solved.

[You Can Call Me Ray]

Thank you, You Can Call Me Ray (and, by the way, I'm a guy ).

You're welcome. I wasn't sure by the name alone. I'm a guy too. (But we can never prove it due to GIT...Godel Incompleteness Theorem).

This thread is fun. I think I get you now. I am very familiar with GIT, and often have to point it out to others. I think you are taking it to extremes (and nothing wrong with that) and not pointing out the practical aspects of GIT. All you say is true, but V&V can still reduce uncertainty (which is the same thing as increasing our knowledge of probability). But yes, all things are relative (including knowledge) and nothing can be "totally proven." But that does not leave us in a nihilist funk (unless that is where one wants to be).

It is rare that I come across other people who have the same understanding of information and intention that I do. I can see that your being a programmer has helped you get to this point. Cool.

Ray

[elendal]

I am very familiar with GIT, and often have to point it out to others. I think you are taking it to extremes (and nothing wrong with that) and not pointing out the practical aspects of GIT. All you say is true, but V&V can still reduce uncertainty (which is the same thing as increasing our knowledge of probability).

Well, it's not that I'm not mentioning the practical aspects per se, I'm just not explicitly pointing them out.

It's all there in my posts - my "probing" of ATS, the only difference between science and religion being the experiment... These are all indications as what what path should be taken to find out the truth. Personal experience. That is the only thing that reduces uncertainty (at least in the beginning; afterwards, uncertainty becomes equal to freedom, and the only power one can wield against controllers).

What you personally experience is true. It's The Reality for you. Whatever it is. Be that a "dream", a "hallucination", or an "awake" experience. There really is not difference between them. We are just taught there is because we are more easily manageable and controllable that way.

In essence, I prefer to give people hints, and let them decide for themselves what they are going to do with them. If I just handed them over some information, that would not be true knowledge. That would be just stuffing them with axioms (as everyone here has been stuffed since the day they were born). It is true, though, that sometimes you just have to stuff them with information in order to catch their attention. It's one of the ways to give them a start.

Take what is useful to you right now, and leave the rest. You can always come back.

[elendal]

Still fuzzy. Your previous post is rather long and rambling (understatement). How about just coming out and saying your "crime" succinctly in twenty words or less?

Ah, I see... You want me to take out the cannons. It's been mostly gun fighting till now, but you want to bring it to a new level. Don't let anyone tell you I didn't warn you.

Everyone, you will have to forgive me for cutting this game short, but the time requires it. Something unexpected has happened, and it is necessary for me to stop this right now. I just wanted to reply to You Can Call Me Ray before posting this, and that's why I changed the order of my replies.

So, SkepticOverlord, Springer, and that third guy whose name I just can't remember. All of you are (including Simon Gray, just in case he actually exists) chicken-sh*t scared sheep cowards full of bullsh*t. You are the most despicable trash humanity has to offer. Just one thought of you makes me so sick that I want to throw up...

Give me just a moment here. I have to see if I can find some more "nice" insults on the net...

... and here are some nice (and just appropriate for the circumstances):

They told you you were a great asset. They were off by two letters.
[Hey, Septic! Do you recognize yourself?]

[You have] the brains of a bucket of slugs.

Please, feel free to look up all the rest here:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ulti ... 6/p/1.html

I dare you to not ban me now.

...

Now that we have that settled, the unexpected thing that happened last night...

It seems my little performance here has caught attention of at least three different parties. What follows are descriptions of these parties. The language I have to use (English) is time-centric, but I have to describe time-independent events here, so you will have to forgive the occasional clumsiness of the language.

1. A guy, an insider, seems to be contemplating how to send me a coded message. Since we have never met before, he has to come up with something sufficiently vague, but also something that I will be able to understand. He will/did come up with a song. Lyrics will be/were written in English but some words, and parts of the words, form a message in my native language. That was clever, whoever you are.

I don't know if this guy is working alone, or if he will be/has been given a task by someone else. I didn't see the messenger, just the message. It's better that way. The message clearly stated (in my native language) "Can't discuss this in public". I guess it will be/was supposed to establish a communication link that could be called upon later, if needed.

Whoever you are, you don't have to worry anymore how to do it. You have done it, I got the message, and now that I am preventing you from even sending it in the first place, it is gone from this world. The memory remains, though. You will have to lay low, and wait for a better opportunity that should present itself at some point.

Above all, though... Don't use Internet or phone for communication. All electronic means of communication have a nasty habit of leaving traces behind for the next hundreds of years (or even more). Trust me on this one - you don't want to leave electronic traces behind.

Me? It's different with me. I am both a bait and a hunter. It is my job (that I take with great joy now, I must admit) to lure out on the open all kinds of "things" lurking in the shadows. Some of them human, some not. Some physical, some not. Some alive, and some... just AI shells (or so it seems).

2. Two guys, ordinary looking, giving a distinct feeling of the clowns CIA sometimes pays to do some jobs. They are not part of any agency (CIA or otherwise), but they are definitely being payed by one. We have plenty of such clown in this country, and I'm not the least surprised to have seen them. They will be/were trying to do their usual deception/infiltration gig in order to get some more information. It will not/did not work.

Now, I can't do anything to prevent CIA from paying whoever they wish to pay, but I can advise them not to waste their time and money. Actually, these two clowns are so incompetent that I will not even give this event any more thought.

3. The third one... Now, that's something completely different. The third guy is/will be/was something very special. Completely emotionless, extremely focused on his mission, but not tense. Absolutely certain of what he is about to do. Just a speck of personality, and nothing more. Enough to pass around as any ordinary human being, but no more than necessary. Excellent skill at observing his surroundings and choosing the right moment. A perfect biological machine.

Absolutely human-looking, human-behaving biological machine... short of social skills, but with excellent information about patterns of human behavior. I mean, he approached me before I could say a word, used a common handshake offer as a tool to draw my attention from what he was about to do, and it was done in a second. I have never seen anyone being so efficient before. A perfect biological killing machine. A true hunter closing on a prey.

Now, this may sound like a script for Terminator 4 or something, but that's what I experienced in my "dream". The Borg Collective from Star Trek - forget about them. They were sissies compared to this "guy". Terminator from the movie was closer, but not quite. This "guy" was way more stealthier and efficient. No running away from this one for years. A second is enough. Fortunately, at this time in history, we don't have to worry about cyborgs and "materials with memory". This was a perfectly ordinary biological "thing".

It was winter time, and it was very real. I guess I will have enough time to prepare myself for my first "date with the machine". That is why I'm cutting these games short. We will see how this "date" eventually turns out.

...

All of this has made me rethink my understanding of PTBs being in "panic mode on steroids". I've read it somewhere, but I didn't think there was anything to it, about completely human-looking "aliens" walking around. I am beginning to think that all the efforts PTBs are putting into completely controlling actions of every single human being on Earth are due to their unimaginable fear after being faced with one of these "guys".

Collecting the DNA of every single human being at their birth, the complete control of all phone and Internet communications, the Real ID / RFID implemented chips... All these tools may be meant to distinguish between "us" and "them". How stupid!

The PTBs are playing right into the hands of these "aliens". And they are not aliens at all. There was nothing alien about the "guy" I "met". If there was anything strange, it was the lack of emotions, and the extreme efficiency.

All the tools that are now being developed by the PTBs are going to be taken over and, first and before all, used to enslave the PTBs themselves. How dumb is that? How big an imbecile one has to be to dig his own grave? That level of stupidity definitely deserves being wiped out from existence.

Now you will have to excuse me. I have to take a rest from all of this. I have no more patience, nor time, to play with these stupid PTB children.