Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

[Zep Tepi]

For example, Hal Puthoff has privately said the same thing (in not so many words) about his "rubbing shoulders" with the likes of Rick Doty, Victor Martinez, and Bill Ryan and engaging in the process if the distribution of a hoax (all knew about Rick's history and that the data was coming from Rick).

Of course they knew that, what an odd thing to say... LOL

[TheSkepticOverlord]

I don’t know, as long you equate “hits” with “quality” and...

The New York TImes link was provided as one example of how more mainstream sources with some level of vetting are using ATS as a source for news content. While they may not have back-checked all the way to the apparent online origin of the presentation, the timeline clearly shows that the appearance on ATS is what drew attention to the issue... and resulting utilization of ATS by other sources.

In any event, this is an exercise in futility as not matter what I present or say, it's unacceptable. Such a one-sided encounter benefits only one side. If I see some new and important questions, I'll do my best to directly answer.

I'll end my contributions to this thread with a quote someone once posted on ATS: "when you are at the top of anything, a company, a forum - whatever, you certainly become an easy target for disgruntled members, conspiracy theorists...etc..."

[Chorlton]

I don’t know, as long you equate “hits” with “quality” and...

The New York TImes link was provided as one example of how more mainstream sources with some level of vetting are using ATS as a source for news content. While they may not have back-checked all the way to the apparent online origin of the presentation, the timeline clearly shows that the appearance on ATS is what drew attention to the issue... and resulting utilization of ATS by other sources.

In any event, this is an exercise in futility as not matter what I present or say, it's unacceptable. Such a one-sided encounter benefits only one side. If I see some new and important questions, I'll do my best to directly answer.

I'll end my contributions to this thread with a quote someone once posted on ATS: "when you are at the top of anything, a company, a forum - whatever, you certainly become an easy target for disgruntled members, conspiracy theorists...etc..."

That would be fine, but Im sorry to burst your bubble but you aint 'at the top' and never will be.
You are a site with a transient, majority population of halfwits with a few decent folk hanging around for any decent titbits. Problem is the decent titbits, just arent coming now and all you are getting are the "Wow Man, thats cool" type fools and rednecks, those who know little of the world and have even less experience of it.
Rather like yourself eh ? As I said earlier, I'd start looking for another job if I were you as yours surely isnt going to be around for too long. Hope youve got a decent pension plan.
Toodle pip.

[JayKew]

S.O. wrote

" In any event, this is an exercise in futility as not matter what I present or say, it's unacceptable. Such a one-sided encounter benefits only one side. If I see some new and important questions, I'll do my best to directly answer."

In that case maybe you could address the points made by AD in the Clifford Stone thread that left Springer speechless and caused him to flounce ( yet again ) from this forum.

Thank you very much.

[ryguy]

In that case maybe you could address the points made by AD in the Clifford Stone thread that left Springer speechless and caused him to flounce ( yet again ) from this forum.

Thank you very much.

Here's the link for convenience: Clifford Stone Thread

[ryguy]

It seems that no matter what I provide in terms of data that refutes unsubstantiated comments/claims, it'll be rejected or ridiculed out-of-hand. Why on earth should I consider providing you with more?

By the way Bill - I was just joking with the outhouse comment. I mean, let's face it - you gave an example of where ATS was obviously quoted in a mainstream news story, and I looked like a complete idiot for making the definitive statement that that couldn't ever possibly be the case. A definitive statement that I would have derided anyone else for making, by the way - I knew it the moment I clicked "submit".

So instead of taking it laying down, I threw my foot up and tried to trip you up with a joke. Regardless, you did prove my original comment wrong, plain and simple. I'm not too proud to admit that.

The important issue though, as Torb has pointed out, is whether it's "okay" to allow the distribution of stories that are clearly (after due diligence and decent investigation) hoaxes or fabricated tall tales - while at the same time continuing to use the "Deny Ignorance" motto in promotions and as part of the ATS brand. AD's points in the Clifford Stone thread are actually an excellent example.

-Ry

[torbjon]

Hi Bill / TheSkepticOverlord:

Sorry to harp on this but I feel that you've illustrated my point for me... this may be a bit long winded so Please bear with me on this:

Both you and Mark / Springer have stated that my banning took place over a year ago and that things have changed since then.

I believe that we have agreed that what happened then was that you entered a forum, scanned the pages, saw some Buzz Words, made an assumption based upon those buzz words, and then made a decision based upon the assumption.

Very Human, but that is more or less what went down and we're all cool with that, yes?

I've requested that ATS CONSIDER revising its policies regarding banning, both 'nebulous post bans' and 'perma bans' and have received some very stout opposition from both of you regarding that request...

Both you and Mark / Springer have stated that "things have changed since then" but what those actual changes are has yet to be seen.

In fact, the policy that Mark / Springer described seems to be the Exact same policy that was in effect when I was there. He described a process that is very loosely defined, very nebulous, with no safeguards to protect your membership from your staff.

In this thread here we have an example of the Exact Same type of behavior coming from a staff member of ATS.

On page two of this thread I made this post:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1354&start=15#p19439

Some of the stuff in that post are indeed My words... but some of the stuff in that post are Your words.

Further down on the page you made this post:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1354&start=15#p19455

in which you reply to four elements from my post above (thanks for replying, btw)

Elements one, two and three are indeed coherent, as those are My words you are replying to, but element four:

torbjon wrote:You guys aspire to be crtical-thinking "researchers"?


No. We aspire to provide a venue for a wide range of people, among them would be critical thinkers concerned about quality research.

the line "You guys aspire to be crtical-thinking "researchers"?" are actually Your Words from over a year ago - and are labeled as such - (back when you strolled into a forum, took a quick glance, made an assumption, made a decision based upon that assumption, and then carried out your decision)

And here I am seeing the Exact Same Behavior Again.

You strolled into this forum, glanced at some pages, saw some Buzz Words, made an assumption, made a decision based upon that assumption, and then carried out your decision.

I'm not seeing any changes here...

Please understand that I am NOT seeking 'vengeance' or 'retribution' or 'oh gee torb is so cool' or anything Personal, nor am I attacking you personally, I am simply trying to understand the machinery that is ATS in order to help find ways for People to not get hurt.

Now then, I don't know for certain but I get the distinct impression that the staff of ATS is under the belief that the Only thing that happens to a human being when they are banned is a 'bruised ego' which is no big deal, and statistically it's such a small number anyway so who cares, right?

I brought this up earlier in another thread here, and it is still sitting there un addressed, last post in that thread:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1331&start=135#p19374

as you can see, I had to bump it up because no ATS staffer would address it, and here I am Again bringing it up. From my post linked above:

Please don't belittle the damage done to me. I am NOT talking about 'bruised egos' here. I'm talking about very real Potential financial gain (or in my case, financial Loss)

Among other things ATS is an outstanding portal for networking with other human beings... for certain subjects / skills it is probably the Best portal for networking currently available on the internet. Case in point Jeff Ritzmann. I doubt his time spent on ATS has hurt him financially. That was good advertising for him, his skills and abilities, and it wouldn't surprise me if he picked up a few third party contracts as a result of his time spent on ATS. (which is Great)

By jumping the gun, flying off of the handle, and running amok the Management of ATS has cost me over a year of some of the Best Networking the internet has to offer, through No Fault Of My Own.

Networking has Value. Monetary Value. And I was denied that due to a "fluke" of "human nature" which, according to our conversations here, I have every reason to believe could happen again to some other member. Perhaps to a member even more destitute than myself.

YES, from the manufactures viewpoint looking out, having only ONE out of a MILLION units crash and burn and kill all the occupants is a "very small issue".

To that poor schmuck who crashed and burned it truly was a Life or Death event.

I ask you to please reconsider your position on this issue and to please discuss it with your partners, board members, staff or whatever group of people you have who determine company policy.

Thank you
twj

Human Networking is a very speculative venture, no doubts about it. MAYBE I would have hooked up with the 'right' people and landed the 'groovy' job, MAYBE not, we'll never know as I was axed through no fault of my own and denied over a Year of quality networking by the exact same person who is exhibiting the exact same behavioral traits and decision making processes now as he was then... while at the same time trying to assure people that no, really, things have changed...

Again I ask you to Please reconsider your position regarding this issue.

I KNOW that statistically the numbers are small... from Managements point of view looking Out it's not that big of a deal...

To the individual member looking in it IS a big deal, it's the BIGGEST deal because that One Poor Soul is THE statistic, That's the poor schmuck who crashes and burns and loses everything (again, not talking about 'bruised egos' here, but very real Potential Financial Gain)

Thank you
twj

[remus]

How does a conspiracy master get away with posting this crap. Shouldn't a conspiracy master be able to perform at the very least some basic research?

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread364936/pg1

Below is links to Andersons site, the guy is not only delusional but this information has been posted on his site since at least August 2004, nearly 4 years ago!!
All of a sudden your conspiracy master dredges up this 4 year old rubbish, why?, stars and flags to push it to the top of the page maybe, no matter that it's a load of rubbish.
This is quality content, lol.

http://www.we-are-not-alone.us/

http://www.myshield.us/


I think this sort of thread posting by a "conspiracy master" shows exactly what ATS is about, sensational thread subject titles with lots of stars and flags to push it to the top of the pages to drag in unsuspecting viewers, click...click...click.
Nothing else matters.

Btw SO/Bill is it true that staff members are able to multiple flag and star posts and threads?
If so that would seem to leave the door wide open to abuse, would it not.

[torbjon]

So, I just went over there and posted the following to the thread that remus links to above:

Johnny, before you delete this please note that a) I was invited back by Bill and Mark and b) In another place they asked us for "specific examples" and this thread and my post constitute a "specific example" of one of the subjects we are discussing there.

Also, Nothing I say here is intended as a personal attack against you, mikesingh, or any of your members


This thread was started in 2004 by dizznod

Astronomer Locates Active UFO Stargate in Big Dipper!
Topic started on 20-9-2004 @ 07:54 PM by dizznod

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread81678/pg1

It ran for two months and then died out.

Three years later, in 2007, zorgon posts the exact same link and the exact same picture as mikesingh did in this thread, along with two other ATS links to related topics.

There is one reply to zorgon and then that thread died again.

Now, a year later, the subject is brought up again, in a new thread, with the same pictures and same links, by someone who is... what? a conspiracy master? subject matter expert? (I can't see as I am not logged in) by someone who couldn't be bothered to take ten seconds and Search ATS to see if the subject had been discussed or to see if they had any NEW information to add to an already existing conversation...

When anyone criticizes mikesingh and suggests that perhaps that person is not all that they are cracked up to be they are slapped down and I notice that at least one post has been deleted for Daring to question the integrity of the OP.

Also, the MOD, JohnnyAnonymous, also doesn't seem to be willing to spend the ten seconds it took to find the four year old pre-existing thread and steer people towards the information it contains, nor do I see one member here searching ATS for additional information regarding this subject.

Bill, Mark, you invited me back, I came, and this is the type of stuff I am finding here. Last week I took a peek and saw the exact same thing: A story with lots of stars, lots of flags, lots of Hype, and it was just a re-hash of a year old story... A year old story that had been De-Bunked a year ago with a very solid Case Closed... and there it was on the front page like it was actually something New and Special and Worthy of discussion.

I believe this is what some of the folks at ATSWatch and RU are on about....

You asked for examples... well, here's an example.

I know that it is difficult for you and Mark to spend too much time over there what with all of the emotions and stuff, but I wish you guys would pop in again from time to time as I truly feel that the three of us were making some positive headway towards an even Better ATS and a safer, healthier user experience for all of your members....

Bill, Mark, I truly appreciate the invite, I tried, I looked, but I still feel that I lack the emotional maturity necessary in order to be a productive member of your community if this is the type of non-deny-ignorance that is being tolerated these days.

Thank you.

Good night, good luck, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
twj

Three other people (members) have posted since I submitted my Anonymous post as Anonymous posts must be cleared by a member of the staff first...

It will be interesting to see if the ATS staff clears my post.. admittedly it is 'mostly' off topic, but there IS some 'good' information there that no other ATS staff or member had dug up yet (a link to the four year old thread with the data it contains)

And, of course, it serves as an example of some of the things we are discussing here (which both Bill and Mark have asked for)

Time will tell....

beddy bye for this old bozoboy

laters
twj
(nice find remus, thanks!)

[Chorlton]

How does a conspiracy master get away with posting this crap. Shouldn't a conspiracy master be able to perform at the very least some basic research?
Below is links to Andersons site, the guy is not only delusional but this information has been posted on his site since at least August 2004, nearly 4 years ago!!
All of a sudden your conspiracy master dredges up this 4 year old rubbish, why?, stars and flags to push it to the top of the page maybe, no matter that it's a load of rubbish.
This is quality content, lol.
I think this sort of thread posting by a "conspiracy master" shows exactly what ATS is about, sensational thread subject titles with lots of stars and flags to push it to the top of the pages to drag in unsuspecting viewers, click...click...click.
Nothing else matters.
Btw SO/Bill is it true that staff members are able to multiple flag and star posts and threads?
If so that would seem to leave the door wide open to abuse, would it not.

Well spotted that man. I was always toe to toe with Mikesingh over there and his crazed and amazing leaps of logic in what he sees. But hes a 'Conspiracy Master now?. That really means if you post enough crap with little supporting evidence (rather like John Lear) youll get to be a conspiracy master?

Im also amused though, by those links you posted. A man named Anderson ??? HMMMMM a chappie name Gridkeeper here in the UK who also goes by the name of Simon Anderson who also claims, and has posted, alleged photos of craft in the area Anderson says? The plot thickens.

[JayKew]

Remus, Torbjon and Chorlton you really need to get a grip on things

How often have we been told by the TWO ( whatever happened to the third ) amigos that content at ATS is "user driven" and that users decide the popularity of the topics.

If the ( in the main ) low IQ membership at ATS wish to rehash outdated and heavily debate topics which have previously been rubbished and proved to be hoaxes at ATS then that is surely up to them

The fact that such topics contribute to the "hit rate" and consequently help to line the two amigos pockets is purely coincidental.


By the way Torbjon, I cant see your post in that thread ..... I wonder why ??

Where, just where is Springer when you need him.

[remus]

How often have we been told by the TWO ( whatever happened to the third ) amigos that content at ATS is "user driven" and that users decide the popularity of the topics.

"User driven" is also an interesting term.
If the staff are able to give multiple flags and stars to threads and posts doesn't that actually equate to "User and Staff driven content".
Now i'm not sure whether staff can give threads multiple flags but i do know that they can give posts multiple stars.
That leaves me to believe that "User driven content" is a misnomer.
It also raises the question of whether there is abuse of those powers to push certain topics to the fore.

[Shawnna]

Maybe staff are *paid* by the number of stars and flags and whatever? Maybe there is a financial or other kind of incentive for them to allow the rehash of old-and-previously-debunked material that they highlight to drive traffic?

And *paid* can include any kind of reward that feeds the individual's ego - e.g. internal power/control, staff recognition, etc.

That business model would make sense when the goal is quantity and obviously NOT quality of anything - be it posts or membership.

[torbjon]

JayKew:

How often have we been told by the TWO ( whatever happened to the third ) amigos that content at ATS is "user driven" and that users decide the popularity of the topics.

Just getting caffeinated, bear with me...

I have to agree with remus in that "User Driven" is an interesting term and needs to be more clearly defined....

I personally have no problems with MEMBER driven content... those are the average blokes that have the word "member" after their names, yes? Whereas the other folks, the "mods" and "super mods" and "conspiracy masters" and "subject matter experts" and "one of the three amigos" and so on and so forth aren't really "members" per se, but "staff".

We know that the amigos receive a paycheck for their labors (which is fine), we know that conspiracy masters get paid to post (or at least they used to) a few pennies here and there, yes? You get Some sort of benefits, a stipend? free lunch? at the very least a lot of power and authority for being a mod... those people aren't technically "members" in my book but "staff" and as such have the responsibilities of "staff" which includes upholding the sites motto of "deny ignorance" AND obeying the sites T&C.

IF the amigos are going to argue that "staff" have the same rights as members (ie can ignore the 'deny ignorance' motto, can flag and star threads, post data to threads, etc.) and can also use their power and authority to 'steer' threads to front page status then I feel we need to redouble our efforts here at ATSWatch as THAT system is entirely too "top" heavy... there are NO checks and balances, NO safeguards to protect the membership from the staff, NO avenues of redress... basically what we have there is a bunch of sheep being herded around by a bunch of wolves.

I have no problems with mikesingh wanting to bring this old subject up again and have another look at it... in fact I think that is GREAT (I've always felt that tomorrow is a better place for yesterday) My problem stems from the fact that mikesingh chose to start a New thread for this discussion rather than continue with the existing one.

I do not know how their system works (something I've been trying to figure out and understand during our chats here) so I don't know if mikesingh has any additional 'powers' or 'authorities' beyond a normal 'member', but he does have one thing that normal members DON'T have and that is the oh so groovy tag of "Conspiracy Master" after his name.

Those types of tags after peoples names makes them "special" in the eyes of the normal membership. Those people are the "cool kids" on the block, they are the "role models", those are the people that the average membership look UP to for guidance and leadership.

By starting a new thread mikesingh "Conspiracy Master" is showing the average membership that Really, it's OKAY to totally ignore rule 1h of the ATS T&C:

(from ATS T&C)
"1h.) Spamming: You will not post identical content, or snippets of identical content, to multiple threads in the discussion forums. You will also not create more than one thread for your topic, or create multiple "slightly different" threads for a single topic."

By starting that new thread mikesingh "Conspiracy Master" is showing the average membership that Really, you don't Have to run a simple search on ATS before opening a new thread. In fact, you don't have to do Any research at ALL to open a new thread, just "hey!! lookit this funky email I just got from a total stranger!! That's all the proof I, as a 'role model' 'conspiracy master' need to start a new thread, and therefore that's all YOU, as an average member need too. Let's start chatting and run up that post count people!! woo hoo!!"

It is now 12 hours later and I too can't see my post in that thread, and I too also wonder 'why?'.

About a half hour after I submitted my post to them ATS member sinema does a basic search on ATS and finds the same old thread that I found, posts the link to it and asks if anyone does basic research around there anymore. About a half hour after that the same member, sinema, makes another post in which they make it pretty clear that perhaps mikesingh isn't all that he is cracked up to be, and then, an hour and a half after That, one more post from sinema that reflects less than glowingly on mikesingh and ATS in general...

Basically this sinema person parroted much of the information and sentiments that were in MY post... only mine didn't make the grade and theirs did...

Which brings up another subject we've been discussing here and that is the subject of Censorship...

What was so 'evil' about my post?

It contained relevant and USEFUL information as it pertained to the topic. It was 'civil'. Yes, there was indeed some 'off topic' stuff there but I'm seeing a handful of other posts that contain off topic stuff, I'm seeing some snide remarks, I'm seeing some one liners...

I see this experience as yet another classic example of 'arbitrary editing' by the staff of ATS.

mmph.

Anyway, one thing that cannot be argued by anyone is the FACT that mikesingh VIOLATED rule 1h of the ATS Terms and Conditions by starting that thread...

and his penalty for violating that rule is.... what?

and if joeblow average 'member' violates the same rule, what happens to them??

speaking of joe, I need another cup of coffee...

laters
twj

[torbjon]

oh,

something else I would like to ad, or continue with as I am now on my second pot of coffee, was a little something I noticed last night when I ran a google search for 'ted anderson'.

Don't bother to try this now as google is too dynamic and it doesn't show up anymore, BUT

Last night when I ran my search using "ted anderson" (in quotes) as the search phrase the thread authored by mikesingh (as linked to by remus, above) was the number two result and that thread was on the front page of ATS under the "The Hottest Topics Right Now on ATS.com" section

The original thread authored by dizznod did not make the top 100 google search results.

Today, 14 hours later, running the same search neither the mikesingh nor the dizznod threads at ATS make the top 100 results... nor is mikesinghs' thread one of the 'hottest' topics at ATS anymore...

I find the google search results to be Incredibly Fascinating and more than a little scary.

I think Part of it has to do with the xml site maps that Bill and I were discussing elsewhere here a while ago. In that conversation he said that ATS generates and uploads a new xml sitemap to google every four hours.

HOWEVER

I can't help but wonder if something else is going on here...

"ted anderson" is an incredibly generic name, and generates over 32,000 results on google...

both last night and today when I run that search, the guy in question web sites of "mysheild" and "we-are-not-alone" don't even rank in the top 100 (I think partly because his sites are such static duds and he doesn't list his full name on his sites, only T.R.Anderson, and again because the name "ted anderson" is such a generic name)

The name "ted anderson" is only mentioned a few times in the mikesingh thread... it's mentioned as often in the thread authored by dizznod (which didn't rank in the top 100 last night or today) so repeated buzz words can't be the key factor here...

After my chat with Bill about web stats and site traffic and xml site maps I went out and did some research on xml site maps and set one up for myself and have been experimenting with it ever since (pretty cool stuff, btw, thanks Bill)

As near as I've been able to determine xml site maps do NOT include 'buzz words', they are pretty much nothing more than a list of links on your web site that you would like the google spiders to be aware of and index. You can rank the links with a 'priority' number which lets the spiders know that "this page here is more important to me than that page there" but that's about it...

Ranking a page as "important" does NOT bump you up in the search results, but rather is used to determine how results are listed as compared to Other pages on your site...

So last night I run a search on a John Smith type of name and the number two return was a NEW ATS thread that only mentions the name a few times and is the current "hottest topic" at ATS (and the OLD ATS thread which also only mentions the name a few times and is not a current "hottest topic" doesn't even make the top 100)

Repeated buzz words and xml site maps do Not seem to be the deciding factors as today the pages don't even rank in the top 100...

So How the 'Ell did they manage to snag the number two slot on google for that incredibly generic name while that 'story' was a 'hottest topic'???

I'm sorry but this just Scares me.

Even if this is all just google spiders doing googlebot spider things and no humans are involved in any way, shape, or form, it Scares Me.

I feel that this incident helps to demonstrate just how Powerful ATS has become (whether intentionally or unintentionally) in the realms of Mass Media and in the manipulation of information and the human mind...

An in depth study of this could prove interesting... and a full time job, which none of us has the time for *laughs*

Anyway, I found that all to be very interesting and just wanted to share the information...

Now I'm off to see if I can't snag ME a few number two slots on google... 'ell I'd settle for number ten, just get me on page one, tha's all *grins*

laters
twj