McCain v Obama

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Re: Now he is REALLY stretching for votes!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:30 pm

Oh yes....this is total banter. I don't really think I am going to change Ryan's mind with the hard facts he can't deny. :) It is just a debate, and a friendly one. Just because I don't agree with him doesn't mean I don't still like him. And as for sarcasm...sorry, I think it is hardwired into my firmware. But I am a bit miffed, Torb, at your calls to censor ourselves. We are nowhere near the level of incivility that would get us kicked off ATS! ;)


ryguy wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:For we notice he selectively chose his campaign (not his Illinois or even US Senate experience), and he selectively did NOT choose Palin's governorship (which is clearly executive, budgetary experience).


I'm not sure that's true, because I haven't read through the entire interview so I can't jump to that conclusion. Did you? I suspect not... you've already made up your mind. What he actually said matters little...


Yes, I did read the whole thing. It was part of an interview on several topics on AC 360. Here is the link to the whole transcript:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... cd.01.html

And here is the sum total of the back and forth on this experience issue:

COOPER: And, Senator Obama, my final question -- your -- some of your Republican critics have said you don't have the experience to handle a situation like this. They in fact have said that Governor Palin has more executive experience, as mayor of a small town and as governor of a big state of Alaska.

What's your response?

OBAMA: Well, you know, my understanding is, is that Governor Palin's town of Wasilla has, I think, 50 employees. We have got 2,500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe $12 million a year. You know, we have a budget of about three times that just for the month.

So, I think that our ability to manage large systems and to execute, I think, has been made clear over the last couple of years. And, certainly, in terms of the legislation that I passed just dealing with this issue post-Katrina of how we handle emergency management, the fact that many of my recommendations were adopted and are being put in place as we speak, I think, indicates the degree to which we can provide the kinds of support and good service that the American people expect.

COOPER: Senator Obama, thank you for your time.

OBAMA: Great to talk to you, Anderson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)


So yes, it is quite clear he was being selective (slippery). This is what he "actually said", and when you compare it to precisely what Cooper asked, much of it is a non-answer. Anderson asked about Palin's mayoral and gubernatorial experience. But Obama chose to compare his campaign only against her mayoral...to make the numbers fit his claim. Again, please confirm to me this is his own confirmation bias (spin) at work. Thanks. :)

Perhaps so, but how do you (or how does Obama) intend to counter the falsehoods that he, himself, has issued over the years? Are you planning to read that entire list of 114 confirmed lies.


Maybe - if I have some time. I guarantee every one of them can be corrected with the truth. That's the great thing about evidence - you can hit a lie, or even a manipulation, hard and have it land flat on its back.


And I guarantee you that NOT every one of them can be "corrected" with truth. With spin? Well, yes. But that list cites the facts. The lie about how he claims Lou Dobbs' commentaries have lead to a "doubling in hate crimes against Latinos" is especially egregious and blatant pandering to Hispanic votes. But I would like to see you spin any of those documented lies. Shall I pick a few juicy ones for you to refute?


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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:59 pm

Ry, Ray,

uh, I don't really perceive "stop, breath, think" as a form of CENSORSHIP, sorry if it came across that way... as a nobody from nowhere non mod bozoboy who has been really enjoying this conversation it just SEEMED to me that the conversation was starting to get a little hotter than normal and some of the stuff I read 'felt' a little more 'personal' than normal, tha's all...

As such it was a kind of a turn off (to me) and distracted me from the MEAT of what you guys were saying...

anyway, it would seem that this was all just a personal problem on my end and I apologize for disrupting the flow of your, um, banter.

Now go read John Muir.... and re-read / watch / listen to, Century of the Self (or anything about Bernays that you can get your hands on)

again, happy "let's go to war" day.

Marketing director finally got back to me, I get to crawl away from the comp (finally)

keep 'em flying.

later maters
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:44 am

it seems that Perhaps a well written, well researched documentary presented by a British Bozo didn't really sink in very well... after all, Adam Curtis is British, he talks funny, he ain't 'Merican, (ergo he's a Commie Bastard), the bulk of his footage was archival, the bulk of the people discussed or interviewed are dead now, old news, who cares, we forgot already... bah.

Okay, tha's cool...

Robert Kane Pappas is American Bozo. The bulk of the people interviewed or offering commentary are American Bozos. The bulk of the people (listed below for your amusement) are either:

IN or where IN the "Media Industry"
TEACH the "Media Industry"
or
LEGISLATE the "Media Industry"

as such they could (and should) be considered "in the know" as to what the "Media Industry" is and how it functions.

There seem to be a few versions of this online, I found this version to be the easiest on the eyes (least amount of pixelation)

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?titl ... =340485663

"Orwell Rolls in his Grave", by Robert Kane Pappas

interviews with and / or commentary from:

Charles Lewis (ABC News, CBS '60 minutes', founder and executive director of The Center For Public Integrity. Received MacArthur Fellowship in 1998)

Robert W. McChesney (Professor of Communications at the University of Illinois, author of numerous books including "The Problem of the Media")

Mark Crispin Miller (Professor of Media Studies, New York University, author "Cruel and Unusual - Bush/Cheney's New World Order")

Congressman Bernie Sanders (US House of Representatives. Independent, representing Vermont)

Vincent Bugliosi (Former Los Angeles D.A. Successfully prosecuted Charles Manson. Author of "Helter Skelter", recent book "The Betrayal of America". Mr. Bugliosi successfully prosecuted 102 of 103 cases)

Greg Palast (Reporter for BBC. Author "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy")

Jeff Cohen (Founder of FAIR - Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting. Former MSNBC Producer)

Michael Moore (Director and Author, and probably the first name most folks recognized in this list)

Danny Schechter (Emmy award-winning television producer. Worked for ABC's news magazine "20/20". Founder of Globalvision. Author "The More You Watch The Less You Know")

John Nichols (Writer for "The Nation". Author "Jews For Buchanan" and co-author of "It's the Media, Stupid")

Aurora Wallace (Assistant Professor of Communications Study, New York University)

Jeff Chester (Head of Center for Digital Democracy, a public interest internet watchdog group -- and someone ATSWatch may wish to consider establishing a dialog with)

Mark Lloyd (Former reporter for NBC and CNN. Founded the "Civil Rights Forum". Worked in the Clinton Administration. Currently a Professor at MIT)

Jjim Ryan (FOX "Good Day New York")

Tony Benn (British MP)

Joe Klines (FOX News)

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (DEM Ohio)

Tim Robbins (Actor/Director and supporter of LAByrinth Theater Company)

Helen Thomas (Reporter)

Rep. Maurice Hinchey (DEM New York)

I BEG you to Please take the time needed to examine and digest this information.

Thank you
twj

http://www.freepress.net/

http://www.democraticmedia.org/
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:57 pm

It is interesting to me that ever since McCain's poll numbers have risen to give him the same slight lead over Obama that Obama himself enjoyed prior to this, the Obama campaign has launched its negative campaigning tactics. More evidence that Obama is just another pol, who will use the same old tactics, and he is hardly worthy of the "shining star messiah" attitude people have towards him.

And before someone again accuses me of stumping for McCain, let me admit that McCain has already done quite a bit of negative campaigning. And an Obama-lover with a bruised ego could easily say "but McCain started it first." Sure. But again, all this proves is that it is politics as ususal on both sides of the aisle.

They aren't very different at all. And all the stroking that Obama tries to do with people makes this even more apparant. How did he say it? "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig." The exact same thing applies to Obama...he is the same old pol. Although in his case I wouldn't use lipstick, I might use a nicely tailored designer suit. ;)

Anyone who thinks change is coming from EITHER of these idiots should try to wake themselves from their dream state! :)

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:14 pm

torbjon wrote:Michael Moore (Director and Author, and probably the first name most folks recognized in this list)


One of THE BIGGEST manipulators of facts via his brand of media there ever was! Not to mention a typical elitist hypocrite.

Tim Robbins (Actor/Director and supporter of LAByrinth Theater Company)


Yeah, there goes another one: Let me tell you how to live your life and who to vote for...cuz I am famous!

The problem is, Torb, even this guy's report on media is media. The MORE media we have (regardless of their professed ethics) the harder it is to ascertain the truth.

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:14 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Anyone who thinks change is coming from EITHER of these idiots should try to wake themselves from their dream state! :)

Ray


As far as change - before either of the current candidates were facing off...in fact before anyone was even in the running for this current campaign - all I wanted as a moderate Republican was for someone in the moderate section of the party to stand up against Bush. Anyone.

I have to say when McCain and Bush faced off before the Republican primaries early on before Bush was elected, I was very much in favor of McCain for president. A soldier, a moderate - a no-nonsense attitude. He was perfect - and I was furious when the Bush campaign completely trashed his military record in the media...I was absolutely appalled as a registered Republican to see the right-wing do that to McCain.

As the years rolled on, I watched Bush, the right-wing hero, destroy the economy, our international relations, and the public trust. And you want to know what infuriated me even more? The image in 2004 of McCain and Bush acting like good ol' "Buddies" as McCain supported Bush for his second term...and as McCain failed to make the right decision on the initial choice to invade Iraq instead of attack terrorists where they were in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Obama had the backbone to stand up and make the right vote from day one.

Now, in 2008, the McCain I thought I knew in that first election, is not the McCain the Republicans are portraying. He does not represent any sort of change whatsoever. He represents the continuing of the same failed Republican/Bush policies of the last 8 years. If there's anything at all that I would hate to see happen after this election is for McCain to be sitting in the President's chair.

I'm voting for change this election. And I'm hoping for change so drastic, that this moderate republican wants to see a fresh young face in the president's chair.

This is the kind of change Obama will bring:

1. The first black President of the United States (that's an impressive historic moment)
2. A president who can address the United Nations without sounding like a moron, or like he's got something stuck up his *** (like McCain).
3. A president who can speak to the hearts of Americans, and motivate them to stand up and support the country through public service or military service (I believe very strongly that Obama has that ability to move people.)
4. A president who knows what "compromise" means - and isn't so freakin' pig-headed he isn't willing to negotiate with people to accomplish what's in America's best interests.
5. A president who won't do something as insanely stupid as looking at the news cameras with a squint in his idiotic college-frat-boy eyes, and say "bring it on." as they hold media journalists and travelers hostage and at knifepoint (I wonder if the family of Daniel Pearl appreciates the Bush/Republican "bravado"?)

Change? Man...don't get me started on change. OUR party is completely wrong on all counts right now. Republicans have made a complete mockery of everything our country stands for by placing this idiot in office for the last 8 years - and the day I saw McCain support Bush in 2004 was the day I realized that John McCain will never make the kind of President that our country needs right now.

We need to get the hell out of this Republican-made mess that we're in right now - and electing someone who has so strongly supported the policies that got us here in the first place is not going to do it. Yes - he's fooling the country with his new fresh-faced Palin. That's going to die out once people realize that it's all show. Yes, Obama represents true change. Hillary would have represented too much change - because she's so far to the left.

Obama is moderate enough - I wouldn't support him otherwise. We need exactly what Obama would bring to the Presidency...a vibrant energy and a voice that is truly motivating to people who hear it and listen. His words do ring true when you actually listen to what he has to say, Ray. Put politics aside and actually listen to the man.

This isn't about who's right or wrong politically - it's about repairing all of the damage that's been done to this country. I honestly believe that Obama's the only hope we have. If it's McCain - people better prepare themselves for another 4 to 8 years of the same hell we've had to suffer through already.

That's all I have to say about politics...now I'm off to try to find a few ghost stories...

Later,
-Ry
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:43 pm

Ray,

I'm a bit appalled by your attitude.. no, scratch the "bit" part.

What is up with you? Where is the "deny ignorance" we try to uphold??

What I perceive from your post is that you saw two names (out of twenty one) that didn't sit right with you, ergo ALL of the data is incorrect.... that's Whack, comrade.

The two people that you targeted were not interviewed. They provided 'sound bytes'. Moore was lecturing at a university and his sound bytes were used primarily as comic relief to a situation that is anything but comical. Robbins was speaking at a National Press Club Conference. He did not offer any words of his own, rather what he was doing was reading a letter from an un named yet famous and successful musician who could not speak for them self due to fear of Media Retribution.

So, Robbins two minute contribution was to read a letter written by someone else and Moores two minute contribution was to be a buffoon to help take the edge off, and those FOUR minutes of commentary completely invalidate the remaining 137 minutes of interviews and commentary made by educators, media professionals, and politicians, is that how your logic system functions??

"The problem is, Torb, even this guy's report on media is media. The MORE media we have (regardless of their professed ethics) the harder it is to ascertain the truth."

This statement shows that you did absolutely ZERO research on the subject matter you are bashing.

The "guy" has a name, it's Robert Kane Pappas. I provided that information so people like you (or rather, for people who actually check up on facts and stuff) could examine him and ascertain where his allegiances lay and what motives he may have, what organizations he's affiliated with, his style of religion / politics, etc.

I provided the names of ALL of the primary data providers so people could examine ALL of them in detail...

As for the actual documentary itself being 'media', yes, it is in traditional audio/video format which by definition is 'media'. Is it "Media"? NO. It was produced for Cannes, Sundance, Independent Film Festivals, and Open Source (internet) Distribution. It was not produced for Media distribution. None of the data presented in the documentary will ever see the light of day via the Media as it names names, dates, dollar amounts, and other incriminating bits of nastiness that the five men who OWN ALL of our Media do not want to be made public.

"The MORE media we have (regardless of their professed ethics) the harder it is to ascertain the truth."

The more Media we have generated by the same five men makes it harder to ascertain the truth. You and I are generating Open Source Media right now... query: Are we making it harder to ascertain the truth or are we seeking the truth?? Are we searching for and discussing the subjects and topics that the Media won't cover or are we simply parroting and regurgitating the pablum they spoon feed us?

Unlike the Media (television, cable, radio, and print) where the contents are Shoved down our throats whether we like it or not, Open Source Media you have to HUNT for, and if you don't know what to look for, usually By Name, then chances are you won't find it. I got lucky and found "Century of the Self" (actually a friend found it by chance and shared it with me) and "Orwell Turns In His Grave". Both of these docs have been around for some YEARS but I was unaware of them...

Monica Lewinsky, however, I know all about, you know all about, they know all about... we had that shoved down our throats whether we wanted it or not.

WHY Charles Lewis left CBS "60 Minutes" and went off on his own to found "The Center For Public Integrity" I was not aware of. Nor are you.

Why is that Ray? Why do you know so much about Monica Lewinsky and nothing about Charles Lewis? Is the Monica Lewinsky saga really so important and earth shattering that that is a name and an event which you Need to carry around in your head until the day you die? And is the Charles Lewis name / event really so non important that you NEVER NEED TO EVEN HEAR ABOUT IT??

Query: If you don't know something then how do you know if it's worth knowing or not?

Here's an even scary question: If you don't hear about something (don't know about it) then Did It Really Happen?

Ray, whatever you do, Don't examine the documentary, Don't google the list of names provided, Don't examine MediaReform.net (now freepress.net) and Don't examine democraticmedia.org.

They are all just a bunch of hippy commie bastards trying to steer you away from the truth. That's why the MEDIA won't talk about them, because the MEDIA is concerned for us, cares for us, has nothing but our best interests at heart... That's why the FCC has a law stating that for every viewpoint offered by the MEDIA equal time must be allotted for opponents to present their counterpoint...

Oh, wait a minute, the FCC rescinded that law during the Reagan administration... the MEDIA no longer has to be "fair and balanced"... they can Say it, but they don't HAVE TO BE IT anymore... that's nice.

William Randolph Hearst scared the hell out of us. He got entirely too much power over the WORLD via Media Monopolization. Because of that legislation was enacted to ensure that no one person could EVER own too many Media Outlets... Up until the Reagan administration that legislation restricted the numbers, types, and locations of Media Outlets that could be owned by an individual or by an individual corporation...

The Reagan administration decided that that was a violation of their rights and rescinded those laws... How cool is that??

Now we get to have William Randolph Hearst's again, running our country, dictating our thoughts, starting wars for us... Non Elected people, in some cases not even American People, running the show for us.

Here's an idea: If MORE Media makes it harder to "find the truth" then let's get rid of four of the five Media Moguls and just let ONE MAN have complete control over ALL of the information we receive, ya that's the ticket.

We can call his network "The Ministry Of Truth" and that's All the info we'll Ever need... after all, it comes from the Ministry of TRUTH, right? What more could a bozo ask for.

I gotta go.
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:45 pm

torbjon wrote:I'm a bit appalled by your attitude.. no, scratch the "bit" part.

What is up with you? Where is the "deny ignorance" we try to uphold??

What I perceive from your post is that you saw two names (out of twenty one) that didn't sit right with you, ergo ALL of the data is incorrect.... that's Whack, comrade.


Settle down, Torb. You are misinterpreting my comments about those two people. Those comments are NOT related to any part they played in that little docudrama, bub. Rather, they are my opinions on those two bozos based on their record of "activisim" and their own (loudly) voiced opinions. They are, both of them, DEM political wonks of the first order. You never hear them criticizing nor "exposing" those in their party that they find hallow. THAT was my only point, dude.

"The problem is, Torb, even this guy's report on media is media. The MORE media we have (regardless of their professed ethics) the harder it is to ascertain the truth."

This statement shows that you did absolutely ZERO research on the subject matter you are bashing.


Again, you misinterpret. And for the comment I was making (a highly technical comment) I did not need to do any research (although I did watch the video, and thought it was interesting, and agreed with some of it). The point I was making is strictly related to signal-to-noise ratio. Nothing else. Taken in that vein, I do not think you can argue that my point is correct. The more schtuff that is "out there" that must be sifted through the find the truth, the more the "signal" you are looking for gets diluted, and therefore hard to isolate. I made NO comment about the "flavor" of different types of media, nor distinction thereof. I made a technical fact, which you cannot dispute. The further point that you make could be true, but let me put it to you this way:

How about we STOP just making more media to warn us about the media? Instead, how about we take ACTION? You know *pokes*, like NOT turning on that boob tube to those channels, not buying that newspaper, not watching that crappy Reality TV show... those actions that enrich those who own media that wish to manipulate us.

The "guy" has a name, it's Robert Kane Pappas. I provided that information so people like you (or rather, for people who actually check up on facts and stuff) could examine him and ascertain where his allegiances lay and what motives he may have, what organizations he's affiliated with, his style of religion / politics, etc.


Quite honestly, I could care less about him. He is just another preacher in the wilderness. What is important to me is MY intention, and the actions I take. His message was interesting, but I learned long ago to separate the message from the messenger. Unless the messenger holds (or will hold) some form of power over me (for example, Obama) I really could care less who they are, or where their allegiences lie. I will take their message for its content, as is, and then either choose to act on it, or ignore it.

That's the way I live my life, Torb. I either act, or refrain from action. Because in the endgame, that is really all any of us can do. All the other stuff (trying to figure out whose message is "right") is a bit of a waste... especially when the signal-to-noise ratio keeps getting smaller and smaller with all the voices in the wilderness.

We just have two different modes of operation, Torb. That's all.
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:15 am

Ray,

Okay, I'll get back to some of that in a while but first:

"The Sarah Palin I Know"

So I just got an email from a comrade of mine in Alaska... as near as I can tell looking at the headers, Anne sent it to Kristi (and others), who sent it to Fe, who sent it to Me...

In the interim it got posted to AlterNet.org so I'm just gonna post the link to that as my copy is a forward of a forward and the formatting is totally messed up, nor do I have the desire to reformat it when all I gotta do is post a link, ya know? (lazy, gotta love it)

http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/www.al ... org/98077/

Talk about my kinda chick!! Screw McCain, GO PALIN!! YEE HAW! A vicious Alaskan Babe that will chew your arm off and beat you to death with the bloody stump *dreamy* Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. YEA BABY!

Can we just loose McCain and have Palin for Prez?? Pleeeeeeese? Pretty Please???

I'm Serious. This is cool. Anne Obviously wants Sarah to not win, so she spilled her guts and told her stories and personal observations... This is the kinda crap you don't get from the Media... especially a Republican controlled Media as it paints Sarah as a "bad" person...

I just see it as HUMAN... VICIOUSLY HUMAN... a Human full of Greed and Lust and Faults and Failings *dreamy sigh* I'm in heaven.

Obama is not full of greed and lusts and faults and failings, his PR is painting him as Perfect.

McCain is not full of greed and lusts and faults and failings, his PR is painting him as Perfect...

But THIS CHICK?? *grins* She'll slit your throat to get her hand in the pork barrel *swoons*

The only thing that could make me happier right now would be to learn that this chick guzzles bourbon and smokes cigars (wouldn't That be Awesome? *sighs* can't have everything, I guess)

I'm reminded of that line from the movie "Armageddon":

"She's a vicious life sucking (female dog in heat) from which there is no escape."

Finally, an F.Y. candidate I can sink my teeth into...

http://www.torbtown.com/library/lazy_feed_015.html

Too bad the old fart got top billing... take him off the ticket and the chick's got my vote. Oh well, maybe next time around...

What do you think Ray? Ain't she just Perfect for the hot seat?? Seriously.

Hey, if they win, and he then drops dead, she's the Prez, and Nancy Pelosi (A Democrat) would become VP! HOW COOL IS THAT!!!!! Imagine the Cat Fights! Two chicks, opposite sides of the fence, a nutty fruity Californian and a wild woman from Alaska, fingers on the button, ruling the WORLD!

I freeking LOVE it.

And now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:18 am

Ry, dude...

ryguy wrote: We need exactly what Obama would bring to the Presidency...a vibrant energy and a voice that is truly motivating to people who hear it and listen. His words do ring true when you actually listen to what he has to say, Ray. Put politics aside and actually listen to the man.


There is no more important principal with regard to interpreting politics than realizing "it's ONLY words"....ESPECIALLY during an election cycle. BOTH sides are just flapping their gums. And when it comes to Obama's words (with little to no past action to suggest he can back them up), here is the most relevant documented lie (the count is now up from 114 to 118):

http://obamawtf.blogspot.com/2008/09/at ... a-has.html

#113 Attacking Palin, Obama has the audacity to claim, "Words mean something; you cant just make stuff up "; BHO makes stuff up

I almost dropped my laptap when I heard the man who's List of DOCUMENTED LIES currently stands at 112 claim today during a speech broadcast on CNN that, "Words mean something; you cant just make things up". This astonishing piece of hypocrisy and brazen lie occurred while Obama was suggesting that Governor Palin's talk about change was nothing but empty rhetoric.

Included within the 112 Lies are examples of when Obama has literally made stuff up. He's been caught several times forcing his Team to issue retractions...so he knows HE CAN AND HAS "made stuff up...by denying it he's telling LIE #113

For example

LIE #3 At a civil rights rally He claimed JFK singled out his father to bring him to the USA...he did not

LIE #18 At a civil rights rally he claimed he was conceived at Selma...but that occurred years after he was born.

LIE # 76 He told Israeli media he was a member of the Senate Banking committee...he is not

Three examples from Obama's sorry history of making up his resume to suit his audience


Sorry, Ryan, but your "Great Black Hope" is a liar...just like any other pol. So why should I bother to listen to him (or McCain for that matter!) if all I have to do is vet the words myself to figure out when they are lies and when they MIGHT be the truth?

Just as sick as you are with McCain (and even I am somewhat), consider that I am also just as sick with Obama and his nonsense. And that is what it is, Ryan. You choose to believe otherwise? Then maybe you need to put up your keys to RU until the election is over! :lol: (kidding and bantering of course!)

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:25 am

(hey, yer online *nudge nudge* Palin dangit, I'm serious! you too Ry, c'mon, Think about it, that could be really cool... )

And now on to the rant I wrote while you were writing yours...

======

(we return you now to the sit-com, already in progress)

Okay Ray, so those two bozos (Moore and Robbins) voice their F'ed up opinions Loudly, so what? You and I are voicing OUR F'ed up opinions loudly too. They happen to have more money than we do so they can afford to shout louder than us, that's the American Way which you are supporting and advocating. What's Wrong with that?

Query: If you had more money would you use some of it to voice your opinion more loudly than you are now? I KNOW I would. If I could buy up ALL of the media outlets and pull a W.R.H. I'd do it in a heart beat even though I know it to be Wrong and Evil and Unhealthy for society as a whole.

I perceive ATS as trying to do something like that with their little network and I'm watching them to the best of my ability because of it... But that doesn't mean that I don't wanna be top dog *laughs*

I think you're just ticked at them 'cause they're rich Dems who blow their bucks on their brand of propaganda...

Reps don't really have to blow their own wad to shout at a us 'cause the bulk of the Media is Owned by Reps, so basically we get to Pay to have the Reps shout at us... pretty slick deal all things considered. In a way it serves the Dems right for being so nutty crunchy / touchy feely. If they were money grubbing blood suckers like the Reps then the DEMS would own alla the Media and it would be the other way around, ya know? So it goes.

(Station Break)

===

You're listening to KBSJ

Announcer: Sayyy, Mother, as sure as there's an X in Christmas, you can be sure those are Tiny Tim Chestnuts roasting. Tiny Tim Chestnuts are full bodied, longer lasting. This visible shell...

sfx: (KNOCK KNOCK)

...protects the nut! Now with X-K-29 added for people who can't roast after every meal.

Tiny Tim Trio: Tiny Tim! Tiny Tim! Chestnuts all the way!!

Announcer: Tiny Tim's roast hot, like a chestnut ought! And, they are...

(Fading Echo) MILD MILD Mild mild mild mild mild....

And now back to our program.

===

So, you watched the vid, agreed with some parts but not others... what parts didn't jive with you? Just curious.

Okay, signal to noise ratio. We're not on the same page there. A CLEAR signal is "The Ministry of Truth", one dude feeding us "the Truth" (as he sees it), no fuss no muss on our side, Very Clear Signal, Very Easy for us, the consumer of information. We open up the "information portal" and there's "the Truth"... or is it? How would we know?

Okay, flip side, EVERYTHING is out there, and I mean EVERYTHING, all the "truth", all the "lies", all the "dirty laundry", all the "secrets" YOUR diary, MY filthy perverted past, every "private" message and "personal" Polaroid snap shot is Out There for the public to go ooo and aaaah over.

So much conflicting NOISE out there that it's a chaotic jumble. This is very hard for the consumer of information. They open up their "information portal" and are assaulted with Static. They have to fiddle with knobs, twist the dials, mess with the rabbit ears to pull in a clear Signal.

I vote for the NOISE. If you and me and everybody else has an Equal ability to distribute our Garbage uniformly across the globe then you and me and everybody else has an Equal opportunity to fiddle the knob just right to find that Thing we are looking for... or be exposed to something new that we never even would have thought to look for...

I don't see that as even being an Option with a "clear" signal.

====

And now a word from our sponser

Announcer: BALLS!! The Masculine Protective De-Aromament Creame!

Balls Quartet: You know that BALLS helps you get what you want. BALLS makes you really stand out. Squeeze it right out of the tube, and rub it around and about. Smell it, such a masculine scent. You'll wonder where the odor went. You know that BALLS keeps that intimate part of you fresh and sweet and you know that that's hard to do. BALLS is like nothing you've ever tried. You'll feel yourself swelling with Pride!

Announcer: BALLS! What you need, to get what you Want!

http://www.torbtown.com/media/old/balls.mp3

And now back to our programming.

==========

"How about we STOP just making more media to warn us about the media? Instead, how about we take ACTION?"

Amen to that comrade. I have a television, a little one. It's plugged into a PS2. No cable or rabbit ears. My TV is for playing video games on period. I had a little TV in Alaska too, same gig only there it was plugged into a N64. There was a black and white TV in my house when I was a kid, up until I started second grade. After that we didn't have one... So I got some boob tube as a kid. I did get to see Neil and Buzz land on the moon live, that was cool. Lotta Viet Nam stuff, a couple of old movies ("THEM" scared the 'ell outta me *grins*) In grade school I used to go over to a friends house to watch Star Trek and Captain Scarlet but that was about it. TeeVee was kind of a no no for most of us, we were supposed to play outside and read books and stuff, so that's what I did as a kid. At 15 I left home and have been on my own ever since. I either couldn't afford or lived a lifestyle without electricity until I moved to Alaska in 1990... bought my first TeeVee and N64 in 1997, shortly before my first comp *shrugs* The ex wife and my kid? Okay, they are strung out on the thing, real junkies, but I don't really touch the stuff, it's bad for your health. I'll stick with cigarettes, thanks.

There is a radio built into the boom box thingy, but the boom box thingy is used for tapes and discs.. I've never used the radio on it. I also have a little combo radio / flash light that has a little crank on it you can turn to make it go, it's kinda spiffy. It's in the bag of stuff for when the crap hits the fan and I need a radio to hear which way the crap is coming so I know where to run *shrugs* In California I used to listen to a radio station called KVMR a lot, back in the 1980's. Back then it was a little local "public" radio station. Not the corporate NPR type but the actual old time "mom and pop" kind. Anybody (and I mean ANYBODY) could walk in off the street, they would give you the little lesson (can't say these words, have to do a station identification every so often, have to do a test of the EBS every so often, when this light comes on it's a Real emergency and you have to flip this switch, etc) and that was that, yer a DJ bub. I DJ'd a quite a bit for them in the mid 80's, it was fun. Talk About NOISE!! *laughs* You used to get it ALL on that station comrade. One dude would bring in his chain saw and play it like a musical instrument and scream grunge lyrics to it.. crazy stuff. Won't find that in the Media *grins*

I sometime look at the front pages of newspapers and magazines at the deli but I never buy one... The last "magazine" I read was one of those huge Computer Shopper Catalogs that's a big as a phone book, you know the ones? Bought that back in Alaska in like 1996 / 1997... read that thing Forever before finally picking a computer to buy (hey, my First comp, tha's a big decision, ya know? *laughs*)

I'm a big fan of books. Mostly sleezy fiction and tech manuals, and pretty much anything pre WWII (especially pre war sci fi, fascinating stuff.)

ALL of my "news" since my first comp (winter, 1997) has come primarily from Open Source (internet) or Word Of Mouth (primarily email correspondence with my comrades around the globe, or chatting online with folks like you) In the past ten years I've been fortunate enough to establish relationships with folks in every time zone, and every continent except Antarctica.

I mean, honestly, if you want to know what is going on in Britain who you gonna ask: the FOX news team or Chorlton? I'm gonna ask Chorlton (and a handful of other folks I know who live there). Why filter it through the FOX news team when I can plow through the NOISE and go straight to the source, ya know?

I can tell you that when the Towers came down my comrades around the world were Not pestering the FOX news team for more info, they were writing / ringing me up asking me what I saw with my own peepers that day (surprisingly, very few of 'em seemed too concerned for my own well being, they just wanted some news that hadn't been sheep dipped yet *laughs*, the freeks)

So, I've been Acting on what I preach pretty much my entire life...

And you? From what I read you and Ry are watching the fiasco on the boob tube, and reading about it in the papers... listen to Clearwater much?

Query: don't you guys have friends who have friends who can hook you up with someone who actually went to the convention (or whatever) and just get the story from some average bloke who was actually There instead of getting your dope from some professional PR spin doctor whose primary concern is Ratings? Just a thought...

=====
We interrupt this program to bring you special news bulletin:

Announcer: China launches it's missiles. America retaliates. News at eleven.

And now back to our programming, still in progress.

======

"We just have two different modes of operation, Torb. That's all."

Thank gods for that. Wouldn't it suck if we were all the same? Who wants to have sex with themself??? I do that alla the time and it's pretty boring.

ooo, ooo, a re-run of underwater basket weaving is on channel slirtyblevin, I gotta go.

laters
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:45 am

torbjon wrote:(hey, yer online *nudge nudge* Palin dangit, I'm serious! you too Ry, c'mon, Think about it, that could be really cool... )


eh...*yawns*... I like her spunk. And it would be nice to see her take on corruption in DC (in both parties) head-on like she did (somewhat) in Alaska. But it ain't gonna go down that way... she's just another talking head pol. I like her better than McCain, and certainly better than Obamabiden. But that is like saying I like a cockroach better than a rat, ya know?

Query: If you had more money would you use some of it to voice your opinion more loudly than you are now? I KNOW I would.


No, I most certainly would NOT. I can understand why you would, because (correct me if I am wrong), your gig is kinda a media gig. That ain't my gig. I am a system designer/builder. That is my gig. I don't see much point in trying to forcibly change people, with media or anything else. I like to debate with people, and do the banter, such as with Ryan...with the hope that maybe I can gain tidbits of someone else's perspective, and perhaps they can get the same from me. But I don't do it to try and change people, because people will only change when THEY wish to change. I cannot change the world by changing people around me. I can only change the world by changing ME, and then taking ACTIONS and hoping that people see those actions as something that might be worthy of emulating. But to be the "preacher" like Moore and Robbins? No frickin way! Turns me RIGHT OFF!

I think you're just ticked at them 'cause they're rich Dems who blow their bucks on their brand of propaganda...


Maybe, sorta. But really I am more ticked at them because of their attitude of (paraphrase) "I am famous, and therefore what I say has more weight than someone who is not famous, and so you should listen to me and change your opinions." Martin Sheen is another ahole like that. "I played the President on TV and so I know what the President should do!" Those people live in their own little worlds, and they are so NOT the real world that hard-working, lower-wage stiffs like you and me live in. I just wish they would shut the eff up and stop trying to influence people to be like them. Why not spend the $ they spend doing that on actually HELPING people in need???? I'd love to see how much Moore and/or Robbins give to charities!

So, you watched the vid, agreed with some parts but not others... what parts didn't jive with you? Just curious.


I don't think I said I didn't agree with other parts of it, did I? I agreed with some parts....the other parts? eh... it was noise to me. IOW, it just didn't stir my passion, and it was just more annoying than anything else. Kinda like that mosquito that gets in your bedroom and keeps buzzing your ear while you try to fall asleep. It just didn't do anything for me.

Okay, signal to noise ratio. We're not on the same page there. A CLEAR signal is "The Ministry of Truth", one dude feeding us "the Truth" (as he sees it), no fuss no muss on our side, Very Clear Signal, Very Easy for us, the consumer of information. We open up the "information portal" and there's "the Truth"... or is it? How would we know?


But that last part is my precise point! Just because some bozo is blasting the truth as he sees it (Moore, Robbins, etc.), that does NOT make it "signal", much less clear signal. When I use "signal to noise" the distinction between the two IS TRUTH...not what one guy (with lots of money to blast his message out) believes is truth. Hence the truth of my statement: The MORE MEDIA that is "out there" the harder it becomes to find the signal (truth) and reject the noise (falsehoods)... and it gets especially messy when you DO have people blasting their beliefs in a manner that they want people to believe are truths.

Okay, flip side, EVERYTHING is out there, and I mean EVERYTHING, all the "truth", all the "lies", all the "dirty laundry", all the "secrets" YOUR diary, MY filthy perverted past, every "private" message and "personal" Polaroid snap shot is Out There for the public to go ooo and aaaah over.

So much conflicting NOISE out there that it's a chaotic jumble. This is very hard for the consumer of information. They open up their "information portal" and are assaulted with Static. They have to fiddle with knobs, twist the dials, mess with the rabbit ears to pull in a clear Signal.


You are now at the exact understanding of my original point! And the fact that this IS how it IS out there is what shapes my opinions and decisions of how to react to it (or more appropriately, ignore it). I ignore vast amounts of crap (whether it is signal or noise) that does not interest me. Especially all the damn preaching from all the idiots who think they need to tell me how to think and act.

Announcer: BALLS! What you need, to get what you Want!


HEY! Where can I buy me some of them? I think I need some! :lol:

The ex wife and my kid? Okay, they are strung out on the thing, real junkies, but I don't really touch the stuff, it's bad for your health. I'll stick with cigarettes, thanks.

(snip)

And you? From what I read you and Ry are watching the fiasco on the boob tube, and reading about it in the papers... listen to Clearwater much?


OK, let me open the door a crack so you can see part of Ray. The TV-media consumption tastes of Ray. There are whole HOSTS of media streams that I completely ignore...most of them being broadcast news (and that includes cable). I get my news by picking thru the news websites. Conventional broadcast networks? Almost NEVER watch them....except for NFL on CBS and FOX! ;) Reality TV? Crap, as far as I am concerned!

So what are my primary TV consumption modes? How about Comedy Central and Toon Network? Specifically, South Park and Family Guy. And you know why? Because they POKE FUN at all the BS media out there and all the self-righteous people (and self-involved people) who ARE trying to actively influence people and get them to change to their way of thinking. People who watch South Park once or twice, and then brand it "stupid potty humor" are missing the deeper meanings in EVERYTHING that Matt and Trey do in that show! It APPEARS to be potty humor, but when you really pay attention to the double entendre, there is a deeper message. This is why it earns emmys. Family Guy is not at deep as South Park...it is just dumb (but funny) humor. It is more and escape for me, whereas South Park is humor with a lesson to not take self (and others) too seriously.

There was an awesome episode on last year called "Night of the Living Homeless". Many people could watch it and immediately see a lesson about how we treat (or ignore) homeless people. But there was even a deeper message and it was aimed DIRECTLY at Obama and his nonsense! The homeless people were wandering around South Park just like the living dead in the famous movies of those names. And they were all issuing the same mantra: "CHANGE?????" (As if they were asking the people of South Park if they could spare some change). But they were all just a bunch of mindless homeless people repeating that mantra. See the Obama connection? Later in the episode, the South Park kiddies visit a scientist who was studying the homeless zombies. "I have found that they actually LIVE ON CHANGE! And you can even GIVE them change, and within seconds they forget that you even gave it to them.... they just keep asking for more CHANGE!"

When you watch South Park only at it superficial level, it is funny...if you like Animal House-like potty humor. When you watch it at the deeper levels they build into it, it becomes HILARIOUS! And every so often, such as the episide I just described, there is even a DEEPER level. In this case the Obama "change" mantra. I was busting a gut when I saw it...because I SAW THAT MESSAGE deeply embedded within it. And guess what? NONE of the Obama sycophants that I know who also watch South Park "saw that". I had to point it out to them...and some were totally in denial! "That is not what they meant!!" OK.....if you don't want to see it....you won't.

So, the purpose for all of that is to give you an idea of how I use the media, rather than allow all the damn media to use me. Humor is the best way to brush off all the crap that OTHER people think are important, and so they want ME to think is important. Ya know how I feel about that? Hey, if it is important to you...great... go DO SOMETHING. Go take some actions to change your world...and don't forget that really all you can change is YOU. But do NOT whine to me, or make me feel guilty, to try and get ME to accept as important what YOU think is important. You do your thing, I will do mine. Now if someone wants to have a debate about some things, I am game for that. And maybe I will even learn something and take it away with me. BUT DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO PREACH TO ME! This is why I absolutely detested Hillary, and cannot STAND Barbara Boxer (I call her Barbara Bozo), who is one of our CA state senators..... because they are so damned preachy! Just like Robbins and Moore.

Query: don't you guys have friends who have friends who can hook you up with someone who actually went to the convention (or whatever) and just get the story from some average bloke who was actually There instead of getting your dope from some professional PR spin doctor whose primary concern is Ratings? Just a thought...


Nope. Don't want it. I watched a few bits of the Conventions, but only for entertainment NOT for any kind of serious information! They are just giant love-fests of people who act like the Living Dead. It is how BOTH parties spew their BS. I refuse to take it seriously.

So that is my take on the whole media thing. Oh...I should also mention that I found out fairly recently (in the last few years) that I am borderline Asperger's Syndrome. And if you know anything about this functional form of autism, you know that it affects how people interact with other socially. So I am not cut from the same mold as others in this way. Which is why my world is mostly about being a techie system designer and builder. I'd rather make things that fulfill needed functions instead of talking to people about what happened on the latest, lame reality TV show (with the most recent of these being the Conventions...but even they are warped forms of reality!)

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:37 am

(can't sleep, back is killing me, mmph)

Mind if I play with this a bit?...

"(correct me if I am wrong), your gig is kinda a media gig."

I gotta correct you on that one... I don't think I really have a gig other than "jack of all trades but master of none"

Before Film Academy there was the CIA:

http://www.torbtown.com/library/muff_mag.html

(yep, tha's me in the checks, don't Ever mess with the chef, they'll throw you in the stew pot)

Before that there was fish:

http://www.torbtown.com/alaska/index.html

(don't ever mess with an Alaskan fisherman, they'll cut you up and use you for crab bait)

Before that there was redneck hippy:

http://www.torbtown.com/media/barn.html

(hard to see but tha's me shouldering arms in front of my shack... don't ever mess with a redneck, they'll cut you up and feed you to the pigs... did you know a full grown sow can crunch through a femur sized bone just like we crunch through pretzels? I love pigs, they're so cute)

Before that I was working for the Jesuits as a caretaker for a 360 acre retreat up in the hills... nice buncha guys, drink more than Catholics, mostly ex spooks...

(don't ever mess with the Jesuits, they'll drag you out into some god forsaken jungle and leave you to rot)

Before that it was construction, single unit dwellings, usually on the high end of middle class units. Foundations to cabinetry.

(don't ever mess with a construction worker, they can do some really nasty things with those tools of theirs)

Before that I was a farm hand.

(don't ever mess with farmers, they have pigs, see above)

Before that I designed and printed T-Shirts and designed and manufactured mobiles from acrylic stock and followed the Grateful Dead around peddling my wares.

(don't ever mess with a DeadHead, they'll dose you with acid rain)

Before that I dealt antiques, best money I ever made 'till the market dropped out...

(don't ever mess with an antique restoration specialist, they'll dip you in the stripper tank - nasty stuff, dichloromethane - then they'll spray you - also nasty stuff, polyurethane, and the toluene Really helps it get into your system where it'll do some Good, ya know? *grins* Glad I switched to cigarettes, Much Safer)

Before that I went off into the woods and lived in a cave for a while... you know, the ol' "30 days and 30 nights in the desert" thing, no food, contemplate yer navel, become one with the rock *shrugs* I actually stayed for 106 days and I did have a little food with me, that plus a few squirrels and a blue jay I managed to whack with a rock. During that time I went from 150 pounds down to less than 100 (96 pounds with my boots on.. I was afraid to strip and weigh myself naked, I'm pretty sure I was below 90 pounds... you could see my organs pressing against my skin and bub, that ain't right *laughs* Learned a lot though, interesting 'visions' *shrugs*)

Before that I was trying to put myself through high school any way I could, mostly buying and selling junk at flea markets.

Before that I was a kid and thought that legos and tinker toys were where it's at (still do, legos rule!)

Since moving to New York I've been hanging with a lotta "high profile" or "high rollers" type people, the kind of folk yer average bozo would cream their jeans to be next to *rolls eyes* Folks like Robbins. As a dude he's alright... nothing great, sure, but he's no Hitler, tha's fer sure. His kids are pretty cool and seem rather well adjusted. I hang with these people a lot:

http://www.labtheater.org/companymember ... slist.html

There's some names there that make a lotta folks just Melt *laughs* They're Actors... by definition actors are WHACK. They're not just one person, they have to be a million different people. Phil got really weird for Capote, he's Nothing like that IRL... same for MI3... *ponders* 'ell for Every flick he's done... he goes off to do a flick and it's like "Where's Phil? Who Are You!? What did you do to Phil!!" but once the shoot is over he slips back into normal Phil Mode rather quickly... still, that HAS to do a number on yer head, ya know?

Before LAB I did a year with a moving company called New York Arts. They had really high end clients. I was the token white boy on the crew so my gig was to keep the clients away from the movers. I moved folks like Tisch (big family here in the city), Crichton (he wasn't around but I fondled his Hugo for Andromeda Strain) Clinton (she Was around but she had her token white boys like we had ours... you don't wanna know what I fondled in her house) etc. Wasn't really impressed with any of 'em, they were all kinda pricky, actually, and treated us movers like slaves for the most part. mmph.

I did a six week stint at Human Rights Watch... any longer than that I couldn't be a temp, they'd have to hire me full time and they didn't have the budget for it. Quite a few chats, snacks, hang outs and a couple of lunches with Ken Roth, I like him, he's sharp. How do you feel about Roth for Prez? Not that he'd ever run but he's pretty solid and sharp... just a thought.

OH, you know who I DO like from HRW? Smita... she's a real somebody now, lemme find a link... her she is..

http://its.law.nyu.edu/faculty/profiles ... onID=22542

she's way cool, I like her... she and her folks came to Nolas second birthday party... her mom does a Hilarious rendition of "Happy Birthday To You", she goes way overboard with the accent, very funny stuff. I believe that both of her folks have spoken before the assembled United Nations, how Whack is that? Movers and shakers making fools of themselves at my kids party, and me, bozoboy fish freek from nowheresville just taking it all in... life is weird.

Buncha other stuff here and there... a whole lotta traveling, every state west of the Mississippi and most of 'em on the East, too, most of Canada, Mexico, no Central but some South America (mostly high mountain stuff, didn't like the jungle) Japan, China (not really worth mentioning, three days there on someone elses business gig, liked the food though) Western Europe... tried desperately to get a Greek fisherman to just drop me off in Turkey but he was too chicken poop to do it, I sooo wanted to just stomp my way down to the holy land and see what alla the fuss was about, ya know?

Anyway, if I have a gig it's to not have a gig but rather to explore all aspects of life to the best of my ability, and experience as much as I can before I kick the bucket.

The film thing is pretty recent, I've only made a couple of grand off of it so far and don't see it lasting much longer, everybody and their toy poodle has better equipment than I got now, I can't really compete *sighs*

Story of my life as far as careers go "day late, dollar short", but it's a fun trip and it's the journey that counts, right?

OH, the, uh, "don't mess with..." lines? NOT THREATS! Just little words of wisdom picked up in my travels.. out of all of 'em the Real Important one is "don't mess with the chef", trust me on that one, the others? eh, maybe this, maybe that, maybe the other... The chef will get away Scott Free every time.

Oh ya, (duh) why I started this; NO, I don't wanna own alla the Media 'cause I'm into media now, it's because ever since I was a kid I've had this dream that every single radio, television, telephone, every appliance everywhere suddenly started playing the same song so that every living thing on the planet was "forced" to experience a simultaneous moment together... I had this fantasy Before reading Douglas Adams but the same sort of thing, how the Vogons announced they were about to blow up the planet...

I think the last time we even came close to such an event was Neil and Buzz playing on the moon and that was only like half the planet...

okay, goin' on 0600... back please let me catch a nap now.... please?

will touch on the other stuff later, but dude? You ARE changing the world and the people around you no matter what you do or Don't do... live, die, do, don't, it doesn't matter.... you are Part of the System no matter how you look at it... I learned that little hummer in the cave all by lonesome... Neat, huh?

and for the record, blue jay does NOT taste like chicken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpcY2zuLMy4
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Factcheck reports Obama Lies

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:52 pm

Since I know Ryan would try to disparage the "Obama WTF?" blog's reporting of his list of lies, I figured I would give another site's take on a few of them... a site most people accept as providing "just the facts". However, it is interesting to note that factcheck.org is funded by Annenberg, a Dem-leaning organization which Obama himself worked for in the past. But still, at least they are willing to publish the facts of Obama's lies.

Here is an article that checks the facts of some of Obama's claims in his DEM nomination acceptance speech:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 ... obama.html

And here are the major bullet points that shows he was lying (spinning)....just like any other pol:

Obama said he could “pay for every dime” of his spending and tax cut proposals “by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens.” That’s wrong – his proposed tax increases on upper-income individuals are key components of paying for his program, as well. And his plan, like McCain’s, would leave the U.S. facing big budget deficits, according to independent experts.

He twisted McCain’s words about Afghanistan, saying, “When John McCain said we could just 'muddle through' in Afghanistan, I argued for more resources.” Actually, McCain said in 2003 we “may” muddle through, and he recently also called for more troops there.

He said McCain would fail to lower taxes for 100 million Americans while his own plan would cut taxes for 95 percent of “working” families. But an independent analysis puts the number who would see no benefit from McCain’s plan at 66 million and finds that Obama’s plan would benefit 81 percent of all households when retirees and those without children are figured in.

Obama asked why McCain would "define middle-class as someone making under five million dollars a year"? Actually, McCain meant that comment as a joke, getting a laugh and following up by saying, "But seriously ..."
Obama noted that McCain’s health care plan would "tax people’s benefits" but didn’t say that it also would provide up to a $5,000 tax credit for families.

He said McCain, far from being a maverick who’s "broken with his party," has voted to support Bush policies 90 percent of the time. True enough, but by the same measure Obama has voted with fellow Democrats in the Senate 97 percent of the time.

Obama said "average family income" went down $2,000 under Bush, which isn't correct. An aide said he was really talking only about "working" families and not retired couples. And – math teachers, please note – he meant median (or midpoint) and not really the mean or average. Median family income actually has inched up slightly under Bush.


And the one I have bolded above should stand as evidence against Ryan's claim of Obama's moderate stance, and/or his claim that he has reached across the aisle, and/or the claim that he "is his own man." Those are the FACTS of his voting record, Ryan. How do you wish to spin this one? ;)

Nuttin new under the sun!
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby torbjon » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:03 pm

But that last part is my precise point! Just because some bozo is blasting the truth as he sees it (Moore, Robbins, etc.), that does NOT make it "signal", much less clear signal. When I use "signal to noise" the distinction between the two IS TRUTH...not what one guy (with lots of money to blast his message out) believes is truth. Hence the truth of my statement: The MORE MEDIA that is "out there" the harder it becomes to find the signal (truth) and reject the noise (falsehoods)... and it gets especially messy when you DO have people blasting their beliefs in a manner that they want people to believe are truths.


I'm not sure I follow you ... restricting the flow of information decreases the amount of data we have to work with (be it true or false) and does nothing to increase the likely hood that Any of the data we receive will be "True."

Increasing the flow of information increases the data we have to work with (be it true or false) and therefore increases the likely hood that Some of the data we receive will fall into the "True" category.... yes?

I fully agree that those with wealth have a better ability to spread their information to the masses than those who lack wealth. We used to have legislation which helped to prevent this situation but it has been rescinded. Wouldn't it be wiser to reenact legislation forcing diversity in ownership of media outlets and insure equal time for opposite viewpoints?

(I actually saw that episode of SP... at a friends house... I didn't make a political connection but more of a spiritual one -- Moonies -- and the notion that even though you give the people what they want, "change", they still want "change".. Since "Subject To Change" is my own personal mantra it spoke to me on a whole other level too, the "even when you win, you lose" level.)

I cannot change the world by changing people around me.


um, I don't understand this concept at all.... and I have to Strongly disagree with you on that... you ARE changing the world no matter what you do or don't do... you are part of the system... No matter what direction you choose (or don't choose) to exert your energies it has an impact on the system... like it or not... right?

I get the impression that you prefer to "lead by example" (my favorite form of leadership) so your energies are more introverted than extroverted, but they still have an impact on the system as a whole, correct? Some folks will choose (by their own free will) to follow your example (regardless of whether that was your intention or desire) ergo "change" in the people around you and therefore the world in general...

Even if you cease to be it will have an impact on the system and affect "change" upon it, right?

So it seems to me that "I cannot change the world" is a falsehood. We change the world simply by existing or non existing. If that is the case then (again) it seems to me the question now becomes "How will I change the world".

Or, better yet, "How will I spend my energy"

does that make sense?
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
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torbjon
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