Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

A spiritual perspective on phenomenon

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Postby ryguy » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:06 pm

Ray - you implied that my beliefs on these matters are from "blind faith"...as though I'm not capable of doing the appropriate scholarly research into the historical evidence to make an appropriate decision. The comment was a last-resort kind of comment that I didn't expect from someone who usually displays maturity and scholarly eptitude. Ahh...but this is what these beliefs do to all of us, gnostic/christian/atheist alike, isn't it... These are things we hold very dear to our hearts - our belief and sense of what makes up our Reality...

I really admire people like Scarz who can sit back comfortably in silence and hold his tongue at times - a wealth of knowledge but able to resist the temptation to pontificate on these matters... There are a lot of people like that out there reading this - and I really admire them and at times wish I could be more like them.

I shared many of the same questions regarding Catholicism (and moreso Christianity overall, to be honest) that you are expressing in this very thread, regarding my original religion that I grew up with. I began to question what I was taught to believe, so I dropped everything and started fresh. I question every single sacrament, the true transition of apostle "seats" throughout the Church history, the elements of the Canon that far to many Christians confuse with Scripture and the accepted "Word of God" (Christ's true message).

So I embarked on a mult-year journey that extended beyond graduation before I actually made any decision either way. I explored the material evidence - the old texts (and the alleged "secret" texts)...the processes that evaluating authenticity entailed, the true reasons and theology behind each of the Sacraments....and on and on ad nauseum. I tracked down Catholic, Protestent, and non-denominational Theology "experts" who could help me make sense of what was portrayed as Christian "truth". I needed to find the truth for myself - not be "told" what the truth was. If you talk to anyone I knew at the time...they'd tell you how much I probably drove them crazy talking about this stuff. That includes my home-town priest who I'm sure thought I was slowly going insane, I'm embarassed to admit the number of hours I made him waste his time answering all of my questions.

You should know, from anything else I've ever written on RU...that I don't believe in "blind faith". I demand evidence. That is no different here.

I understand your statements and respect your questions - I've shared just about every single one of them at some point. The choices here are to spend months and months sorting through these differences, or simply accept that there is no "agreement" that could be obtained here. Infallibility vs. capability of Sin is a great example - Catholic "doctrine" doesn't say a Pope is without Sin, or that a Pople can not go to hell. But to understand the difference, one has to trace through Church history, early Church writings, and understand what is meant when certain terms are used. Jesus handed the reins to Peter, and ordained that he held the keys - what he loosed or contained on earth would be in heaven. That's a lot of power to give a guy who he also told was weak in faith...isn't it? Quite a mystery there...although it isn't if one truly understands Christ's message as portrayed in Scripture.

The best I can do is answer some of the questions you've just asked regarding the pope by offering the words of someone who can explain it far better than I.

Actually take the time to read it through...believe it or not his name is Father Ray!! lol.. He has a radio show where he discusses these kinds of issues . He does a great job pulling apart myth from truth.

http://www.cfpeople.org/FrRay/Radio6.htm

Please take the time to set aside any existing anti-Catholic bias and try to follow his explanation with an open mind.

I think the only reason we can't "end it" is because both of us are, to some extent, immature and need to have the last word. Both of us. You are fixed in your beliefs and you are convinced that you have found evidence to support it and what you believe to be "fact". I am just as confident in my position, and am just as convinced that I have found evidence to support it and what I believe to be "fact".

It would take us many, many months to debate Gnostic vs. Christian beliefs... by two guys who believe very strongly in their convictions. And history shows us that the best result we could possibly hope for is no further agreement and a destroyed friendship. And that's the absolute best we could hope for. Not really encouraging is it? And in my mind, not worth the time that I need to spend moving forward on the Ufology front.

-Ry
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"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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Time to get this thread back on track!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:57 pm

:)

I feel (hope?) that I have given a sufficient foundation of the Tree Of Life that most people can at least see that there is valid scientific information contained therein, and that it is certainly a structure that screams "Systems Theory" to you when you investigate its details and correspondences to natural phenomenon.

But in opposition to Dan Smith's statements that he is a "one trick pony", I do not wish people to think that I am the same, nor that I am pushing the Tree Of Life as a singular "idol" that will ensure your spiritual salvation. For me, it has been and always will be about "the knowledge" and how it can and must help us bridge the gap we have created between science and spirituality.

So let's take a step backwards from the specific glyph called the Tree Of Life and let us look at the body of knowledge that it is a part of: Sacred Geometry. I provide a website, and include some of the more pertinent quotes from this page, as an introduction to where I will next take this thread:

http://www.sacred-geometry.com/AncientKnowledge.html

The stark truth is that our world is being shaped by a modern science that manipulates life's natural patterns while often lacking the contextual understanding (read: "Systemic understanding")to do so responsibly Yet, just as our piecemeal exploitation of natural structures and patterns has created a crisis, so can a new holistic science based on natural patterns help to resolve it.


Sacred geometry is a relatively modern term for the study of the archetypal patterns that create everything in the material world. The name tends to carry undertones of a secret spiritual knowledge held and used by different traditions around the world, and there is good reason for this association. Throughout human history, great spiritual traditions have gathered and cultivated private knowledge of the core patterns of creation.


Always keep in mind: It is about THE KNOWLEDGE, not the social structure that has held that knowledge!

The essential concept behind all of these applications is simple: Everything has a pattern, and that pattern is the key to creating a specific effect.


Understanding the systemic patterns of the universe will help us understand how to manipulate them to achieve our goals more intelligently. And it will also teach us new things which have historically been kept secret by our outdated social structures that sought to hide knowledge, rather than share it.

At every scale of existence, from the subatomic to the galactic, the same key patterns bring all things into existence.


This implies not only a fractal organization, but certainly a SYSTEMS basis for all things. One that is hard to argue with given the evidence that is the universe, and its systemic organization.

To give several simple examples. Nature uses the circle and the sphere as the primal container for energy and consciousness; it uses the vortex form to circulate and transmit energy and consciousness from one location to another; it uses the five perfect divisions of the sphere (popularly called the Platonic Solids) as the basis for diverse forms of matter.


Understanding how geometry is embedded within creation helps us more fully understand creation, and thus our Creator.

Tragically, the importance and potential of this pattern knowledge is only dimly perceived by science today. This is partly due to specialization, where scientists only learn their one subject area such as chemistry and know very little about similar patterns found by other disciplines such as physics. It is also partly due to modern science's institutionalized dismissal of any |"meta-physical'' holistic connections among phenomena, which become visible at higher levels of analysis.


No commentary necessary!!! :shock:

Central to the development of a new context-rich holistic science is the knowledge of interconnected natural patterns. Only by understanding the complete pattern, or structure, of a natural process can we responsibly seek to use or modify that process. (snip) In sacred geometry, a new holistic science of patterns and their interconnections unifies the knowledge of structures and processes discovered in modern scientific fields with the knowledge millennia by great world traditions and studies gathered over by the patterns common to them all. In sacred geometry, the artificial split between physics and metaphysics can be healed, and the foundations for a new healing science of the future can be established.


Can we see that the embolded passages are clearly espousing a Systems Approach? In the second bold passage, please note the admonition to understanding both STRUCTURES and PROCESSES. These are the "physical" and "functional" domains that I have spoken of which are foundations of systems science and engineering. And the unification of physical with functional, in systems engineering, is called the operational domain. (From ARO 201 - Fundamentals of Systems Engineering)

Today, with widespread talk of a clash of civilizations, combined with increasing conflicts between different religions and cultures, this larger context for understanding and integrating every tradition's perspective can help lead to dialogue and mutual respect. The core patterns of nature are a basis for all true spirituality, as well as for science, and provide common ground for healing the fragmentation that is crippling our world.


Awesome. A call to ceasing the arguments at our current level of system context and instead attempting to understand the higher system context within which we are embedded. And I could not agree more with Dr. Gilbert that to do this, we need to use (and bridge) the disciplines of BOTH science AND spirituality.

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Mysticism and Christianity

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm

Before I begin digging into the larger domain of "Sacred Geometry" I thought that it would be good to exhibit that, far from being "divorced" from mysticism, the history of Christianity is actually FILLED with both references and "dogma" that stems from mystical practices. It is quite amazing and enlightening to actually read what the Catholic Church believes and teaches on this subject, because we will see that the goals they endorse with respect to mysticism actually seem to support the goal of integrating science with spirituality:

The Catholic Encyclopedia on: Mystical Theology -
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14621a.htm

Mystical theology is the science which treats of acts and experiences or states of the soul which cannot be produced by human effort or industry even with the ordinary aid of Divine grace. It comprises among its subjects all extraordinary forms of prayer, the higher forms of contemplation in all their varieties or gradations, private revelations, visions, and the union growing out of these between God and the soul, known as the mystical union.


The passages I have emboldened are particularly relevant because they represent a major goal of the Christian Gnostics whom the Catholic Church elected to suppress and prevent from having their voice heard in the official Canon. I maintain (and all evidence to-date suggests) that this was a politically-motivated decision of exclusion because the Christian Gnostics realized the equality of woman with man, especially in the very scientific nature of Creation. The Catholic Church was founded on patriarchal values and the politics of the time just could not put up with beliefs that celebrated the co-creation of the male and female potencies. Continuing with more quotes from the above source:

The contents of mystical theology are doctrinal as well as experimental


Interesting that the Catholic Church would admit this second part. It is not often that the Church deigns to allow one to examine or "experiment" with their own spirituality without the strict rules and regulations that the Church would impose on its flock. But we are not done yet...we will see how the Church clearly withholds certain aspects and imposes its position of authority in these matters:

but also lays down rules for their guidance, which are based on the authority of the Scriptures, on the teachings of the Fathers of the Church, and on the explanations of theologians, many of them eminent as mystics.


There we see it again...the need to exclude certain practices because "the Church Fathers" have decreed them to be in "error". And we also see that the Church will permit the explanations of some theologians, who were apparantly "eminent as mystics." The implication here is that one cannot be trusted to find their own truths in such an experimental way. It is further reinforced by:

It must therefore take note of the erroneous systems of prayer, like Quietism or Semiquietism, and of the self-illusion or deception of souls that mistake the powers of darkness for those of light or the promptings of their own self-seeking for Divine communications.


So even though each, individual soul (rightly) seeks its own Communion with God, they are discouraged from doing so unless the precepts of the Church are followed? That is what I am reading here. And this is adding to my case that the Church Fathers were politically motivated in how they selected what was "right thought" that was admitted into the Canon. The most amazing thing to me is just how much this treatise dances around the foundational concepts for a great deal of mystical knowledge that was in practice even BEFORE Christ, and yet NONE of that knowledge is even so much as mentioned in the teachings of the Church (and I am specifically referring to Sacred Geometry concepts here).

Mystical theology begins by reviewing the various descriptions of extraordinary contemplation, contained in the works of mystics and of writers on mystical subjects, and the divisions which help to describe its various phases, indicating chiefly whether it consists of an enlargement or elevation of knowledge (Ed: Gnosis), or of absorption in the Divine vision, or, again, whether the cherubic, i.e., intellectual, or seraphic, i.e., affective, element predominates.


Notice just how close these descriptions (embolded) are to many of the basic precepts of what Christian Gnostics (and Gnostics in general) espouse. In fact, these two elements could be said to be the foundation of a Gnostic Christian approach to the goal of spiritual practice: Unification with God through expansion of our Knowledge about His/Her Creation. It seems the Church supports this, but as we have learned, it only does so "on the Church's terms."

The objects of contemplation are set forth: God, His Attributes, the Incarnation, and all the Sacred Mysteries of the Life of Christ; His presence in the Eucharist; the supernatural order; every creature of God in the natural order, animate or inanimate, particularly the Blessed Virgin, the angels, the saints, Providence, the Church.


Here we see a list of things that are "sanctioned" to contemplate mystically. The ones I have emboldened are again the same "targets" that anyone of Gnostic leanings would certainly agree with. The others are elements of a system of beliefs (The Church's) which may not always be established as "true or without error". And note how the Church seems to AGREE that contemplation of the Church itself is fair game. Seems encouraging, however we come to find that anyrevelation that one may arrive at due to mystical contemplation is still subject to the Church's (fallible) rulings.

What strictly comes within the province of mystical theology is the study of the processes of active and passive purification through which a soul must pass to reach the mystical union.


There it is again...clearly these are goals that the Gnostic Christians (and most Gnostics) agree with. Note the deference to a balance of active and passive, and note these are "processes" (=functions in a Systems Theory reading). Clearly there is a broad foundation of agreement between a large number of mystical beliefs and the Catholic Church. But it is in the redaction of certain elements by the Church that we see censorship (at worst), or "not telling the whole story of God and Creation" at best.

The first difficulty mystical writers encounter in their treatises on contemplation is the proper terminology for its degrees, or the classification of the experiences of the soul as it advances in the mystical union with God effected by this extraordinary form of prayer.


Here we see reference to practices and norms that are part of virtually ALL mystical traditions and "secret societies". Namely, the progression from "uninitiated" up towards the eventual "union with God." What is amazing to me is how the Catholic Church can embrace this gradation within its own dogma, but yet frown upon other organizations that seek to teach people the same basic concept. The implication becomes the "Not Invented Here" syndrome taken to a spiritual level. This is what sickens me about Catholic dogma, in that it refuses to acknowledge that:

a) Someone else may have a more effective way to achieve the longed union with God....or (heaven forbid!)
b) Some other tradition may actually have a methodology which is "more correct" than the one espoused in Catholic dogma.

There are ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat, and there are certainly more than one way to unite with God. To believe there is ONLY one path to God (the one that some other fallible man defines) is to believe that the chances of uniting with God are much worse than a crap shoot. ;)

Finally, contemplation leads to a union so intimate and so strong that it can be expressed only by the terms "spiritual marriage". The article on contemplation describes the characteristics of the mystical union effected by contemplation. No treatise of mystical theology is complete without chapters on miracles, prophecies, revelations, visions, all of which have been treated under their respective headings.


Again, the Gnostic Christians do not and will not disagree with this. They embrace it.

the most extraordinary mystical experiences defy expression in human speech, and that God, the Author of mystical states, acts upon souls when and as He wills, so that there can be no question of what we could consider a logical or chronological development of mysticism as a science. Still, it is possible to review what mystical writers have said at certain periods, and especially what St. Teresa did to treat for the first time mystical phenomena as a science. Before her, mystics were concerned principally with ecstasies, visions, and revelations; she was the first to attempt a scientific analysis of the process of mystical union brought about by contemplation.


There it is. The Catholic Church saying that it is perfectly acceptable to approach our spirituality through mystical means, as a SCIENCE. So why the need to suppress Gnostic thought and disallow it from even being mentioned in the Canon? I believe I am clear on the answer to this, and it had MUCH more to do with politics than it had to do with spreading God's word. This is part of the limitations of knowledge that the Catholic Church has operated under since its inception, and has acted in a dictatorial fashion (in the Dark Ages) to maintain.

The "piece" that is missing is a complete discussion of the SCIENCE behind mysticism especially as related to "Sacred Geometry". This is the piece that is noticeably absent in the Church Canon, and which the Church will quickly react to as either "heretical" or "the path to Satan". I maintain that the truth about Sacred Geometry is one of the biggest secrets kept by the Catholic Church, and its continued suppression of this knowledge (that is the birthright of every human being) will lead to its eventual downfall. This downfall will eventually come as a result of the strict patriarchal political structure of the Church refusing to admit that not only can women be equally effective priests, but that the true celebration of Creation must permit the male and female potencies to interact on an equal basis. This is precisely what the Gnostic Catholic Mass celebrates trhough its implementation of both a male and a female mass celebrant.

Is it not time that our spiritual celebrations give deference to the UNARGUABLE means that Creation is manifest all around us, at all levels, as verified by science? The interaction of active with passive potencies is how Creation proceeds, and it is through their unification that the oneness of God can be realized.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:41 am

It seemed like an appropriate time to share more evidence to the fact that there IS "hidden knowledge" that is not openly discussed in ALL the major religions, and this includes Christianity/Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam (primarily). This post focuses on The Judeo-Christian systems of religion because it deals with evidence that comes from their common Bible (The Old & New Testaments).

First, let me review something that has been pointed out before, but not necessarily by directly quoting the OT passages in question:

Genesis 2:9 - And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


This is the first time this specific tree is described in the Bible. There are more, as we shall see below. But one must ask: Why do the overt teachings of Judeo-Christianity NOT include ANY form of description of the literal Tree Of Life, which we can CLEARLY see is the architectural model for the human organism? Not only this, but in the Judaic traditions we see that this literal Tree Of Life is at least acknowledged but then it is simply glossed over in the extant teachings as "deep and esoteric knowledge". Clearly, it is kept from a public consumption. In Catholic Canon and Christian traditions we do not see ANY discussion of this literal Tree. Absolutely NONE, and this should cause one to pause and consider why it is purposefully not discussed. Moreover, you can search the internet and find a great many "good Christians" who have completely warped, biased, and downright INCORRECT information about the literal Tree Of Life. Most often these articles are trying to convince the reader that this literal Tree Of Life is "of the devil" or otherwise evil. And yet how can this be when the very Bible which ALL Christians accept states the above...that the Tree Of Life was one of the most prominent trees given to man by God in Eden. And we should also note that while this tree was prominently mentioned in the quoted Genesis passage above, that God did NOT expressly forbid man from eating from this specific tree. Here is the specific warning:

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


Next up we see something which seems contradictory, but certainly it is interesting:

Genesis 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.


Lots of odd things that need to be explained here (and yet Judeo-Christian teachings do NOT address them). First: "become like one of us"??? Why is God speaking in the plural? Who else is this "us"? And now we also see another odd disconnect: In the previous chapter we saw God ONLY restrict man from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now that man has eaten of that tree, WHY does God (the Gods?) wish to now also restrict man from eating of the tree of life??? Interesting, yes? Knowing what WE do about the Tree Of Life (that it is the defacto architecture of the human organism), does it not seem odd that now "God" wishes to restrict our knowledge of our own selves? If you were to ask me my "gut feeling" on this, I would say this sounds more like what I would expect controlling "aliens" (us?) to want to do... restrict us from knowing our architecture, especially if that SAME system architecture is the key to our non-physical selves (which is something I have already set forth as a potential truth). The next appearance of the tree of life:

Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


Now what is interesting here is the "flaming sword" and its function to guard the way to the tree of life. Is it just an "accident" or "coincidence" that one of the geometric glyphs that appears on the literal Tree Of Life is also called a "flaming sword" or alternately a "lightning strike" which is formed when you trace the paths following the sephira in their numerical order?
Image

If one seems confident that they can brush this off as "coincidence" then I will be sharing something much more intricate towards the end of this post which will be extremely difficult to pass this same "coincidental" judgment. But we will cross that bridge when we come to it. More quotes from the Bible:

Revelation 2:7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.


This is just the FIRST of 3 mentions of the Tree Of Life in Revelation. Here are the other two:

Revelation 22:2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.


and

Revelation 22:14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.


Now we have a real quandary, and it lands squarly in the lap of the Catholic Church (specifically) and Christianity's traditions and teachings, in general. Revelation is PART OF THE CANON. It cannot be denied or ignored with respect to the message of Christ, which is often how the political elements of Christianity deal with conflicting elements that come from the Old Testament. Moreover, the 3 quotes from Revelation above make it pretty darned clear that the Tree Of Life is a pretty important aspect of our eventual salvation. Indeed, the last quote are words attributed to Jesus himself, as told to John by the angel!

And what continues to amaze me is how the Christian traditions not only do NOT spend any time teaching and explaining the tree of life, but we see many people actually DEMONIZING the study of it in the form of Qabalah. In my mind this is again politically motivated for nothing more than a petty reason that this is a Jewish body of knowledge, and the early Church wished to distinguish itself from Judaism.

But still, we have a loose string here... the "hard core" Christians who deny the Qabalistic Tree Of Life (and even demonize its study) could easily make the excuse that "you cannot prove that ANY of those quotes from the NT or OT are speaking about the literal Tree Of Life as described in the Jewish traditions!"

Such people who wish to make that excuse had better hold onto their hats. For in my very next post I am going to point something out about the very first book of the Bible, it's literal and syntactic structure, and it is going to be pretty much impossible to blow it off as "coincidence" or "no connection".

Here we go... and BTW, this material comes directly from one of the most influential books in Hebraic Qabalah - "Sepher Yetzirah: The Book of Creation".

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:49 am

The information in this post comes from the book:

Sepher Yetzirah: The Book of Creation, In Theory and Practice
Aryeh Kaplan
ISBN 0-87728-726-0

The very first chapter and verse of Sepher Yetzirah may seem pretty vague, but as we shall see, there is a direct connection between what it is telling us and what Genesis Chapter 1 is telling us about Creation. Here is Sepher Yetzirah 1:1

With 32 mystical paths of Wisdom
engraved Yah
the Lord of Hosts
the God of Israel
the living God
King of the Universe
El Shaddai
Merciful and Gracious
High and Exalted
Dwelling in eternity
Whose name is Holy -
His is lofty and holy -
And He created His universe
with three books (Sepharim)
with text (Sepher)
with number (Sephar)
and with communication (Sippur)


Kaplan's book is highly recommended as he gives a great deal of commentary on this verse. I am not going to repeat it all here, because anyone who is interested can get the book. I am only going to summarize the DIRECT CONNECTIONS between the "32 mystical paths of Wisdom" which it refers to and the THIRTY TWO VERSES that comprise Genesis 1.

The 32 mystical paths of Wisdom should be easily seen as referring to the 10 spheres and 22 connecting pathways of the Tree Of Life. This becomes much more apparant (and undeniable) when one understands precisely how the 32 verses of Genesis 1 are aligned with these spheres and paths. The 32 verses each contain the name of God...so the name of God appears 32 times throughout the 32 verses of Genesis 1. These 32 verses and appearances of the name of God can be broken down, literally and syntactically, into 4 distinct groupings. The first grouping deals with the 10 spheres on the Tree Of Life, and the last 3 groupings deal with the 22 paths (which represent the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet).

The TEN Spheres & The TEN Utterances of "God Said"
There are NINE times in Genesis 1 where the text explicitly states "God Said", which can be aligned with the 9 primary spheres of the Tree Of Life. In addition to these nine explicit verses of "God Said", the verse first verse of Genesis is implied to go along with the 10th sphere, even though it does not explicity say "God said", it is clear by its own words. Here are the 10 statements:

1 ) In the beginning God created...
2 ) God said, let there be light...
3 ) God said, let there be a firmament...
4 ) God said, let the waters be gathered...
5 ) God said, let the earth be vegitated...
6 ) God said, let there be luminaries...
7 ) God said, let the waters swarm...
8 ) God said, let the earth bring forth animals...
9 ) God said, let us make man...
10 ) God said, be fruitful and multiply.

The THREE Mother Letters & The THREE statements of "God Made"
The Hebrew alphabet distinguishes 3 of its 22 letters as specific "Mother Letters". Sepher Yetzirah continues (in later chapters) to explain the significance of these letters in the formation of Creation.
1 ) God made the firmament. (The letter Aleph)
2 ) God made two luminaries. (The letter Mem)
It is interesting to note here there were TWO luminaries made by God. This directly supports our discussions in Scarz's thread that BOTH angels AND demons were made by God!!!
3 ) God made the beasts of the field (The letter Shin)

The SEVEN Double Letters & The SEVEN statements of "God Saw"
The Hebrew alphabet distinguishes 7 of its 22 letters as specific "Double Letters". Each of these seven letters can take on two distinct pronunciations, and also two distinct numerical values. Sepher Yetzirah continues (in later chapters) to explain the significance of these letters in the formation of Creation.
1 ) God saw the light, that it was good. (The letter Bet)
2 ) God saw that it (the dry land) was good. (The letter Gimel)
3 ) God saw that it (the earth vegitation) was good. (The letter Dalet)
4 ) God saw that it (the luminaries in the firmament) was good. (The letter Kaf)
5 ) God saw that it (the swaming waters and great whales) was good. (The letter Peh)
6 ) God saw that it (animals and beasts of the field) was good. (The letter Resh)
7 ) God saw all that He had made. (The letter Tav)

The TWELVE Elemental Letters & The TWELVE remaining statements of God's name
The final set of 12 letters in the Hebrew alphabet are called the 12 Elementals. Sepher Yetzirah continues (in later chapters) to explain the significance of these letters in the formation of Creation. Here are the remaining 12 times God's name appears in the Hebrew text:
1 ) The Spirit of God hovered
2 ) God divided between the light and darkness
3 ) God called the light day
4 ) God called the firmament heaven
5 ) God called the dry land earth
6 ) God placed them (luminaries) in the firmament
7 ) God created great whales
8 ) God blessed them, be fruitful and multiply
9 ) God created man
10) In the form of God He created him
11) God blessed them
12) God said, behold I have given you...

So there we have it. Genesis 1 is a very TECHNICAL treatise on text, number, and communication. One might even call it a Systems Treatise when decomposed in this manner. And what I have outlined above is only the beginning (pardon the pun) of the analysis of Genesis 1 laid out by Sepher Yetzirah. One can see that it deals (indirectly) with the concepts of geometry because it defines elements associated with QUALITY (form) as well as QUANTITY (number), which are clearly geometric in nature. But beyond quality and quantity, we also see another very important aspect that Genesis 1 is describing: Communication, in other words THE TRANSFER/TRANSMISSION OF INFORMATION... something which is at the center of my spiritual/scientific research, and something which is a fundamental aspect of any/all networking paradigms.

Stay tuned... it only gets better.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:42 am

The History Channel show on "Angels: Good or Evil" that I mentioned in SCarZ's thread reminded me of something that I learned long ago, when I was enrolled in Catholic grade school back in Bay Village, Ohio. I thought I would share that in this thread:

For those who would insist that there are no mystical traditions that predate Christianity that are part of the Catholic Canon, hold on to your horses. In fact, what I am about to share is one of the clearest pieces of evidence that there ARE elements of sacred geometry, and yes even Qabalah "built into" the larger Christian traditions.

What I am referring to is the formal Christian Celestial Hierarchy (also known by the more familiar name of the Choirs of Angels). I had completely forgotton this from Catholic school theology classes. But the Choirs of Angels are organized (according to Canon) into Three sets of Three groupings of non-material beings above mankind:

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... _hierarchy


First Sphere (Old Testament sources)
:arrow: Seraphim
:arrow: Cherubim
:arrow: Thrones
Second Sphere (New Testament sources)
:arrow: Dominions
:arrow: Virtues
:arrow: Powers
Third Sphere
:arrow: Principalities
:arrow: Archangels
:arrow: Angels


And man is the 10th element who exists within the material world "below" (systemically?) the Choirs of Angels.

Three sets of three, with a 10th and final element below them all? Hmmmm....where have I seen that organization before? :) Oh yeah! Now I remember!
Image

What I am suggesting (as I have been all along in this thread) is that this could very well be scientific (systemic) information that explains the structure of our universe that was "encoded" in a way that is relatively easy to understand by humans of many generations (especially those who may not be all that educated). This would ensure that it is propagated from one generation to the next. The only problem with the scheme is that the original meaning of this information was lost (or hidden, perhaps?) such that now we are asked to simply "believe the Bible".

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Postby uberarcanist » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:14 am

Thanks a lot, guys! Kabbalah and esotericism are topics of great interest to me...looks like real high quality info you guys got here...also could you please post whatever you've got on alchemy if that's not too much trouble?
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:04 pm

Ray,

I've recently learned that this information and discussion is important (even critical) in ways that will become a little more apparent in the coming months.

I'd like to learn more about the origins of your own beliefs as you describe them in this thread. At what point in your life did you start believing this? Was it before/after college, before after meeting with certain groups/people who shared these concepts with you...etc?

Thanks...whatever info you can provide are going to be tremendously helpful... If you'd rather not post the information publicly in the forum - PM or email would be cool.

Thanks,
-Ry
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:12 pm

Hi Ry,

ryguy wrote:I've recently learned that this information and discussion is important (even critical) in ways that will become a little more apparent in the coming months.


Interesting. Not really surprising (to me), but I will be interested to hear what connections you have made. It wouldn't have anything to do with the link between L. Ron Hubbard/Scientology and this material, would it?

I'd like to learn more about the origins of your own beliefs as you describe them in this thread. At what point in your life did you start believing this? Was it before/after college, before after meeting with certain groups/people who shared these concepts with you...etc?


My "beliefs" did not come about until well after I was introduced to this mystical and metaphysical system back when I was in college (around the '83 timeframe). My introduction to this body of knowledge came about quite synchronistically. I was working at the front desk of a hotel in Claremont, CA while I was working on my BS in Aero at Cal Poly in Pomona, CA. One day in one of my astronautics courses we were taught the history of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, and how it came about due to the efforts of Jack Parsons (one of the original "rocket men"). All we learned about on that day of class was Parson's technical work with solid and liquid rocket motor technology. That evening I went to work, and a co-worker/friend of mine was talking about both the Tree Of Life and the Pasadena chapter of the Order Templis Orientalis (OTO), which was headed by Crowley in the UK. I didn't pay much attention to it, until he told me "I'll bet you didn't know that the guy who started JPL was a member of the Pasadena OTO?" He said this without any information from me that I was even studying Jack Parsons. At that point my interest was raised, and I told my friend that I had just learned about Jack Parsons that very day in class. He went on to tell me about Parson's relationship to L. Ron Hubbard and their "magickal work" together.

I was never one for mysticism, as it always seemed to consist of what appeared to be contorted, complex "logic" (if you could call it that). It never really appeared scientific to me. But on that evening was the first time my friend/co-worker showed me a picture of the Tree Of Life network diagram. I immediately saw it as a neural network topology, and told my friend as much. He was a psychology major, so I had to spend a lot of time explaining what I just told him. But that was the point at which my scientific interest in the Tree of Life began. I was already studying artificial intelligence, given that I had chosen my career path to be in the area of the "brains" of aircraft in their guidance and control software.

My goal was to learn as much as I could about it, and that would have to include taking in all the "mystical mumbo jumbo". Over the next 10 years it was my goal to find as many "real connections" between the Tree Of Life and actual scientific principles. I was primarily looking for links between the TOL and information technology, but I came to find parallels and direct links with many of the broader topics in systems engineering and general (Newtonian and Relativistic) physics. Sometimes I would simply ignore some of the mystical aspects, but often there were times where I was able to see where some mystical description and/or attribution of the TOL precisely reflected some aspect of verified science.

But the things I came to understand about the links between Parsons, Hubbard, Scientology, and Qabalah/Tree Of Life were some of the more interesting puzzle pieces, from a historical aspect. It prompted me to launch my own, personal investigative research into Scientology back in the late 80s. As a result of taking a few of the introductory classes in Scientology, I came to the conclusion that the VAST MAJORITY of the material upon which Scientology is based are nothing more than rehashed Qabalah/Tree Of Life and mystical knowledge taught under the Crowley/OTO institutions. When you look at what Scientology calls "The Bridge to Clear" it eventually becomes apparant that it is nothing more than a repackaged Tree Of Life. Hubbard just decided that he would never tell anyone where he got the ideas and how he adapted them. He would make himself, L. Ron Hubbard, the "Source". It was at that point that I lost all respect for all things Scientology, and saw it for what it really is: A scam to separate people from their money using existing mystical knowledge coupled with BAD science fiction ideas.

Any questions or any areas where I can expand upon my dissertation?
Ray
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:50 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Interesting. Not really surprising (to me), but I will be interested to hear what connections you have made. It wouldn't have anything to do with the link between L. Ron Hubbard/Scientology and this material, would it?


Gosh no...the Scientology link is old hat...people have torn that link to shreds, it's really ancillary to the big picture - as I'm sure you know.

That evening I went to work, and a co-worker/friend of mine was talking about both the Tree Of Life and the Pasadena chapter of the Order Templis Orientalis (OTO), which was headed by Crowley in the UK. I didn't pay much attention to it, until he told me "I'll bet you didn't know that the guy who started JPL was a member of the Pasadena OTO?" He said this without any information from me that I was even studying Jack Parsons. At that point my interest was raised, and I told my friend that I had just learned about Jack Parsons that very day in class. He went on to tell me about Parson's relationship to L. Ron Hubbard and their "magickal work" together.


Cool - that's some excellent background, thank you! Was your co-worker/friend a current member of the OTO? (I do recall now that you mentioned OTO before!)

I ask because there were a number of groups in the California area during that timeframe (late 1970's through 1980's) who were not only studying the mystical aspects of "reality," but they were also integrating a number of UFO/extraterrestrial issues into that belief system. The "Enoch" writings came from that, as did a number of other core new-age beliefs. I'm intensely interested in the UFO/Alien aspects of those beliefs. I'm assuming you must have attended some of their meetings - I'd love some insight on what they discussed and who else may have been there that we might know. (From what I hear those social circles were quite small in California at the time).

My goal was to learn as much as I could about it, and that would have to include taking in all the "mystical mumbo jumbo". Over the next 10 years it was my goal to find as many "real connections" between the Tree Of Life and actual scientific principles. I was primarily looking for links between the TOL and information technology, but I came to find parallels and direct links with many of the broader topics in systems engineering and general (Newtonian and Relativistic) physics. Sometimes I would simply ignore some of the mystical aspects, but often there were times where I was able to see where some mystical description and/or attribution of the TOL precisely reflected some aspect of verified science.


I'm very interested to learn more about how they specifically taught the interaction takes place between the human and exterior forces. I recall that you mentioned above, I think, that it's all part of one large system - I'm curious if these groups ever attempted to use this specific symbol (Tree of Life) to explain paranormal phenomenon, such as the UFO phenomemon.

But the things I came to understand about the links between Parsons, Hubbard, Scientology, and Qabalah/Tree Of Life were some of the more interesting puzzle pieces, from a historical aspect. It prompted me to launch my own, personal investigative research into Scientology back in the late 80s.


Was this exploration/research conducted alone?

He would make himself, L. Ron Hubbard, the "Source". It was at that point that I lost all respect for all things Scientology, and saw it for what it really is: A scam to separate people from their money using existing mystical knowledge coupled with BAD science fiction ideas.


That's true - although if, as you point out, his developed teachings were based around the core Tree of Life principles, then the only real difference between his theories and those of the other splinter groups that came after is in how the Tree of Life concept is intepreted. I'm not saying that's a small difference by the way. Interpretation is everything.

As you know, he did attempt to explain the UFO phenomenon - as, at the core the "big secret" was the alien ruler "Xenu," and the elaborate story that explained the beginnings of humanity and reasons for the continued visitations.

Any questions or any areas where I can expand upon my dissertation?
Ray


Yes, anything at all that you learned along the way regarding their explanation for the UFO sightings and phenomenon would be tremendously helpful.

Thanks Ray!
-Ryan
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:10 am

ryguy wrote:Cool - that's some excellent background, thank you! Was your co-worker/friend a current member of the OTO? (I do recall now that you mentioned OTO before!)


Yes, he was at that time. He was a member of the Pasadena lodge and a smaller organization (a "camp") down in southern Orange County. I have not stayed in touch with him over the years, so I am not sure if he is still connected to them.

I ask because there were a number of groups in the California area during that timeframe (late 1970's through 1980's) who were not only studying the mystical aspects of "reality," but they were also integrating a number of UFO/extraterrestrial issues into that belief system. The "Enoch" writings came from that, as did a number of other core new-age beliefs.


Ahhhhh, well, I think one of the organizations you are talking about is the Aetherius Society, founded by Dr. George King. They are VERY HEAVY on the UFO subculture, but I do not think they are associated with the OTO or any of Crowley's body of knowledge. My same friend was involved with the Aetherius Society for awhile, but I steered way clear because.....well, you can probably guess why based on what you know about my disdain for the whole UFOlogy subculture! :)

I'm intensely interested in the UFO/Alien aspects of those beliefs. I'm assuming you must have attended some of their meetings - I'd love some insight on what they discussed and who else may have been there that we might know. (From what I hear those social circles were quite small in California at the time).


My attendance and interaction with both groups (OTO and Aetherius) was VERY limited....especially in the case of Aetherius. I went to one "group gathering and chanting" outing at the top of Mt. Baldy in the San Gabriel Mountains (one of the mountains that Dr. George King deemed a "holy mountain"). That outing and all the UFO connection nonsense was all I needed to know to stay well clear of those people. The OTO was a different story. I had respect for their mystical processes and the various levels from initiate up through their mason-like levels of the order. But my whole purpose for studying the Tree Of Life was for connections to science. I was not in search of a "new religion" because I had given up my Roman Catholic beliefs and determined that I would only follow knowledge that connected to science and natural structures/processes. So I did not want to become an initiate, and this limited me in terms of what events within OTO that I could participate in.

The one ceremony that I did participate in (twice) was one called the Gnostic Catholic Mass. The first time was just to satisfy my curiosity since I did grow up Catholic. The second time was because I really appreciated the message of that ceremony which was (IMO) completely lost on the patriarchal structure of the Catholic Church... and that is the total equality of power between the male and female energy forms (and this goes well beyond the human male and female instantiation of these universal forms). It was in participating in the Gnostic Catholic Mass that I came to realize that the "Holy Trinity" is most definitely NOT "Father, Son, Holy Spirit". That is what the patriarchal Roman Catholic system tells you. But Nature tells you something else, which is much harder to falsify. The actual "Holy Trinity" is "Father, Mother, Child". It is the perpetual trinity by which a species continues to propagate itself.

I do not remember a lot of people from those few times I participated in OTO gatherings. The one name I do remember is a guy who is a highly published author and fairly high up in the OTO hierarchy, a guy by the name of Lon Duquette. In fact, Lon lives in the next town over from me here in Huntington Beach (Costa Mesa). One thing I can say about the OTO for certain and that is there was NO INDICATION TO ME that they were mixing UFOlogy with their mystical practices. There may be other organizations out there who may have latched-on to Qabalah/Tree Of Life as a body of knowledge, and they may have mixed in some UFOlogy (perhaps to appeal to a wider realm of people with $ to scam), but I have never been associated with any of them because of my beliefs about most people involved in UFOlogy.

I'm very interested to learn more about how they specifically taught the interaction takes place between the human and exterior forces. I recall that you mentioned above, I think, that it's all part of one large system - I'm curious if these groups ever attempted to use this specific symbol (Tree of Life) to explain paranormal phenomenon, such as the UFO phenomemon.


Well, one of Lon Duquette's books might be a good place to start:

http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Demons-God ... 157863010X

But let me try to explain it this way: The OTO teachings acknowledge that the human being is a system, and it is fully integrated with its supersystem (the rest of the universe). In this manner, the OTO does not distinguish (specifically) between "physical" and "metaphysical" because they are artificial divisions. All things basically "are". The upshot of this is that ALL THINGS YOU DO MATTER. And by MATTER we mean that all actions you take not only have "physical" impacts on the rest of the universe (i.e. local effects that you can measure with physical instruments), but all of your actions also have a "praeter-physical" impact. In essence, this is a simpler way to wrap-up the whole concept of how a magician interacts with his/her universe. All actions (every last one of them) is, in essence, an invocation of "spirits" (energy).

In this regard you will rarely find the OTO or its teachings talking about "UFOs". To this org the search for the answer to the question of "what are UFOs" is not one that concerns them. But the big mishmash of New Age organizations makes it highly likely there are probably many of them that have taken bits and pieces from OTO (like Hubbard did) and mixed it into their own brew.

But the things I came to understand about the links between Parsons, Hubbard, Scientology, and Qabalah/Tree Of Life were some of the more interesting puzzle pieces, from a historical aspect. It prompted me to launch my own, personal investigative research into Scientology back in the late 80s.


Was this exploration/research conducted alone?


No, it was a tag-team effort. :) My friend who introduced me to Qabalah was, as I said, a psych major. I wanted to just see what sort of viable scientific technology (if any) that Scientology may have had. He just wanted to see what they had for his comparitive psych studies. So we both planned out our mutual infiltration (of sorts) of Scientology. We both joined the Orange County Scietology Org at the same time, but we never let anyone at the Org know we were friends. We each followed the indoctrination process from our own vantage points, and regularly chatted and compared notes (away from the Org, of course) as to what we were going through. It was through this process that both of us convinced ourselves that ALL OF SCIENTOLOGY is nothing more than rehashed, diluted, bastardized, and OTO/Qabalah material that was mixed with Hubbards penchant for SciFi which is how he gave it his own, personal spin that would make it seem different from his source (Crowley and OTO).

He would make himself, L. Ron Hubbard, the "Source". It was at that point that I lost all respect for all things Scientology, and saw it for what it really is: A scam to separate people from their money using existing mystical knowledge coupled with BAD science fiction ideas.


That's true - although if, as you point out, his developed teachings were based around the core Tree of Life principles, then the only real difference between his theories and those of the other splinter groups that came after is in how the Tree of Life concept is intepreted. I'm not saying that's a small difference by the way. Interpretation is everything.


Well, to some extent yes. But I would say it is interpretation within specific contexts. To me, it is this particular context that draws the line between scientific endeavors and those that require belief in something that you cannot demonstrate to yourself. Scientology (and to a great extent Christianity) has these interpretations that demand that you simply believe because someone said it is so. The OTO is not so much about "beliefs" as it is about putting things into action, which is why they will avoid topics like UFOs and trying to explain them. The OTO position might be something like this: "If you are a person who has experienced what others may call a UFO, then it is because you invoked it in some manner. You may not understand the manner in which you invoked it, and you could have done it unconsciously. It is not important to try and quantify or explain what it was you saw. What is important is for you to learn how to invoke it, and other things, in accordance with your will."

I am not sure if I have explained this well, because it is a complex explanation... and it is really more geared towards an experiential process (which is probably why the OTO grades and initiations does work well for them).

As you know, he did attempt to explain the UFO phenomenon - as, at the core the "big secret" was the alien ruler "Xenu," and the elaborate story that explained the beginnings of humanity and reasons for the continued visitations.


Yes. And this appears to be a major area where Hubbard FAILED in his attempts to follow or pick up on Crowley's teachings. The creation of an elaborate story is all about ego, and it pays homage to the demon of "because". The more appropriate Gnostic position is simple acceptance that you (an individual) has and will continue to experience all sorts of energetic interactions with the universe. Many will be readily apparant to your conscious, reason-seeking mind. Some will not be apparant to that level of yourself, but will be readily apparant to deeper aspects of yourself (the soul and the spirit). Therefore, it is useless for the conscious, reason-seeking mind to spend time trying to make sense of a message that was not intended to be "figured out". And it is nothing more than an impulse of the ego to drive you to "explain to someone else what you saw". The simple fact is that you experienced something, and the fact that someone else did NOT experience it means it was not only not meant for them, but it was also not INVOKED by them. Crowley taught that most people get wrapped up in knots by serving the demon of "because". Here are several verses quoted from The Book Of The Law that refer to this concept:

Liber AL vel Legis wrote:27. There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.

28. Now a curse upon Because and his kin!

29. May Because be accursed for ever!

30. If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.


The last line should get the point across. What Crowley (AIWASS) is saying is it is pointless to try and explain such things, as explanation is not required. And all it will do is send the REAL YOU (the Will to Act and Interact) into pointless circles. And is that not what the whole UFOlogy subculture is engaged in??? If you spend all your time and energy of incarnation trying to explain something that was only meant for you (and invoked by you) then you will accomplish nothing. What we should be engaged in is practicing our abilities to understand how to invoke such energies willfully... and how you use them is based upon your INTENTION. (IOW, invocations are only evil if the intention behind the invocation is evil).

Yes, anything at all that you learned along the way regarding their explanation for the UFO sightings and phenomenon would be tremendously helpful.


So in summary, let me recap: The OTO is not the type of organization that engages in telling its people what to believe about how the universe displays itself to our individual Wills. Hence, true OTO organizations would not engage in shenanigans trying to "convince" people of ANY sort of extant truth about UFOs. They are more interested in teaching you how to invoke "UFOs" but they would never even call them that. The other offshoots that do incorporate "explanations for UFOs" are clearly missing some of the most important lessons of Crowley that are inherent in The Book Of The Law "channeling" as I have quoted above.

In fact, this is often a good way to pinpoint how spinoff bodies of knowledge differ from OTO: See how many of some organizations beliefs counter the words in Liber AL vel Legis (The Book Of The Law).

Did any of this help?
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:54 pm

Ray,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write all of that up. It helps tremendously. We've come across some fascinating connections between scientists within the mystical culture back then, and their specific beliefs today. In other words, how the things they drew from the Scientology-and-spinoff groups ended up influencing their analysis and study of the field of Ufology. We'll be publishing a tremendous amount of additional detail in coming weeks, but I just needed some insight from you about those groups, because I've come across writings that mirrored, almost word-for-word, many of the concepts that you've described in this forum. These are from texts written back during that time period too, not today. I was shocked to read that, leading me to gather more information about those groups directly from you, since you had personal interactions. I was actually hoping you may have personally met and interacted with a few other scientists in the area who had the same sort of scientific curiosity regarding Scientology during that same time period.

This, is absolutely critical - thanks so much for writing it:

The last line should get the point across. What Crowley (AIWASS) is saying is it is pointless to try and explain such things, as explanation is not required. And all it will do is send the REAL YOU (the Will to Act and Interact) into pointless circles. And is that not what the whole UFOlogy subculture is engaged in??? If you spend all your time and energy of incarnation trying to explain something that was only meant for you (and invoked by you) then you will accomplish nothing. What we should be engaged in is practicing our abilities to understand how to invoke such energies willfully... and how you use them is based upon your INTENTION. (IOW, invocations are only evil if the intention behind the invocation is evil).


So, the essence of what you've written is: In order to "explain" the UFO phenomenon (such as the odd behaviors of crafts, and the weird-and-wacky creatures and beings)is basically NOT to try to explain it - but instead to accept that what you're seeing comes from you and your own abilities to "invoke" those energies based upon your own intentions, a.k.a. your psychic abilities (for lack of a better term)?

Here's my last question for now (I think..lol). Does this specific belief incorporate any universal intelligence other than our own collective human intelligence? Does it incorporate any higher, lower, or "other" intelligence of any kind into the picture - or does the OTO/Tree of Life concept maintain that there is no other intelligence at all, except our own collective human intelligence? I've read a number of text from OTO-based sects (I think they are anyway) that repeat all of the above, but they also take into account a "cosmic" intelligence which they apparently believe we can tap into and communicate with.

Lastly (again), how does this belief account for the impact (which almost seems organized and planned) on society that UFO culture and images are having? In other words - a fear of impending end-of-the-world scenerios, therefore an increase in demand for alternative energy technology, alternative propulsion technology, and a desire for more political power and control in order to create a one-world, no-money, space-based world society (enter "exo-politics")

Should we really believe that such organized and apparently well-planned social "direction" comes from a random collective consciousness within ourselves?

-Ry
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:54 pm

ryguy wrote:So, the essence of what you've written is: In order to "explain" the UFO phenomenon (such as the odd behaviors of crafts, and the weird-and-wacky creatures and beings)is basically NOT to try to explain it - but instead to accept that what you're seeing comes from you and your own abilities to "invoke" those energies based upon your own intentions, a.k.a. your psychic abilities (for lack of a better term)?


Pretty much, but I would replace "psychic abilities" with "energetic abilities". The "craft" is not about drawing a line between "normal" and "paranormal". Rather, it is a call to see all things as one. Don't draw that line, but rather expand your understanding to realize that even thought and intention are very much energetic processes. The only reason we draw a line is because our science has not matured to allow us to measure and quantify those things that we call "paranormal". The history behind the concepts of germs, bacteria, and viruses is a good example. Before we understood them, the communicable aspects of disease were thought to be "paranormal". Our science has since grown beyond that artificial boundary such that now these concepts are normal and accepted by all as science.

Here's my last question for now (I think..lol). Does this specific belief incorporate any universal intelligence other than our own collective human intelligence? Does it incorporate any higher, lower, or "other" intelligence of any kind into the picture - or does the OTO/Tree of Life concept maintain that there is no other intelligence at all, except our own collective human intelligence? I've read a number of text from OTO-based sects (I think they are anyway) that repeat all of the above, but they also take into account a "cosmic" intelligence which they apparently believe we can tap into and communicate with.


There are most certainly higher and lower levels of intelligence. The common misunderstanding is the one you have that because their motto is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" that the belief system is only about self and as such denies things outside the self. This is totally incorrect. The knowledge is very much systems-oriented, which is why I took to it. It DOES realize that there are energetic processes out there beyond yours, and that you integrate and interact with them....and that there are levels of existence above and below ours. The whole "do what thou wilt" thing is merely pointing out that "you only have ultimate control over YOU." Or, YOU have the right to figure out what your Will (true purpose) is, and to go out and do it. You do NOT have the right to impose your Will on someone else that violates their right to their Will. So it is more about "keep your own house in order and that is the best life you can possibly live". By keeping your own house in order you should be drawn to take actions and interact with other energetic forms in a way that brings about the Will of the higher forms of intelligence. (God cannot achieve His/Her Will without us to do the legwork!) :)

Lastly (again), how does this belief account for the impact (which almost seems organized and planned) on society that UFO culture and images are having? In other words - a fear of impending end-of-the-world scenerios, therefore an increase in demand for alternative energy technology, alternative propulsion technology, and a desire for more political power and control in order to create a one-world, no-money, space-based world society (enter "exo-politics")


Humans (like all energetic forms) are constantly evolving. You bring about events that you (the solitary you and the collective you of a species) are "ready" for, whether you are conscious of being ready or not. This plays into things I have talked about regarding moving from the age of energy to the age of information, and then on to the age of intention. The collective human condition begins to manifest things into our extant world that are "forerunners" (if you will) of the age/capabilities we are evolving into. The fear and impending "end of world" scenarios are a result of "falling into the pit of Because with the dogs of Reason", as Crowley (AIWASS) describes. People spending all their time predicting and prophesying about "what it means" or "what is it?" are not following their true Wills. These are actions where people are trying to convince other people of their beliefs in the End Times scenarios. That is an act of evil intention right there, because you are trying to change someone else's Will. What is really interesting is how these groups (lets use Exopols for the moment) try to paint themselves as "spiritual", yet they need to convince you that their worldview is correct (i.e. how their first tenet is "we simply accept that UFOs have been visiting us"). In the world of the OTO they are evil, because they are actively trying to influence your Will by getting you to believe their explanation (their Reason) behind it.

Should we really believe that such organized and apparently well-planned social "direction" comes from a random collective consciousness within ourselves?


Of course not, for as I explained above it is not solely about what is "within ourselves". Rather, these things DO come about because of coordinated energetic actions (physical and prater-physical) by groups of people. Some people take these actions consciously, and other people unconsciously contribute energy to those who are consciously scheming. All of it very much obeys the Conservation Laws, as well as the idea that order can and does spring from chaos. It is NOT random, but rather it is ordered by a bunch of energetic beings, all doing their Will. The intentions of some of these beings (like the ExoPols) is less than honorable to their own Will, in that they are trying to find converts. The OTO and Crowley's teachings basically say ALL such proseletyzing activities are wrong (and evil). For what is right (and part of one's Will) for one may not be right (and part of one's Will) for another.

If there is one misunderstanding I hope I have corrected here is that this "belief system" (or I prefer to call it a way of living life) does NOT just proclaim "all things come from me". Just the opposite. It teaches the universe is a system and we are subsystems that interact with other subsystems. The "me" part of it gets all the press with lines like "Do What Thou Wilt", but in reality all it is saying is "You are only really in control of yourself and your Will. Act according to your Will and you will help others achieve their Will. Act against your Will and you will create the kinds of turmoil that deprive others of their Will." In the controls perspective, one would never want to introduce out-of-phase inputs into a system with a specific goal.

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:04 pm

Before we understood them, the communicable aspects of disease were thought to be "paranormal". Our science has since grown beyond that artificial boundary such that now these concepts are normal and accepted by all as science.


That's an excellent point and I understand.

One thing I noticed regarding the communications that come from many of those groups, however, is that to elevate one's consciousness, one needs to reject the concepts of modern human religious beliefs. However, if those communications (through channeling and other efforts) come from a collective understanding within the larger "mind," then there's one question that begs asking:

What about other social beliefs that may be outdated and unnecessary other than religion or scientific concepts? It seems that most of these communications focus on social religious beliefs of the day, while not focusing as much on social practices and beliefs that may also be even more outdated than our religion? Why aren't there communications from entities (channeling began in earnest in the 1800's) advising humanity to turn away from slavery, or a barter-and-trade economy (during the time before paper money), or feeding society with information about new technologies that would do away with the need to feed horses and shovel manure during the times of horse-and-buggy? What's their take on humanity's current "rules" concerning marriage being one man and one woman? Or whether our beliefs concerning child labor, animal rights, or our current class system or political systems should be kept or abolished?

None of that....the overwhelming message, by far, is very singular -- it focuses on the current overwhelming faith or religion of that society and attempts to replace it with a system of faith in an extraterrestrial or a unifying "cosmic" intelligence from above. You can see the pattern repeated throughout the literature of countless sects.

By keeping your own house in order you should be drawn to take actions and interact with other energetic forms in a way that brings about the Will of the higher forms of intelligence. (God cannot achieve His/Her Will without us to do the legwork!) :)


So the legwork is, at least in large part, seeking to interact with the energetic forms around us in order to bring about the will of those higher forms of intelligence?

What is really interesting is how these groups (lets use Exopols for the moment) try to paint themselves as "spiritual", yet they need to convince you that their worldview is correct (i.e. how their first tenet is "we simply accept that UFOs have been visiting us"). In the world of the OTO they are evil, because they are actively trying to influence your Will by getting you to believe their explanation (their Reason) behind it.


But, then again, the Tree of Life approach also requires an acceptance that it's worldview is true - that we do, in fact, create the phenomenon ourselves through non-physical interactions with those energies/forces...

Rather, these things DO come about because of coordinated energetic actions (physical and prater-physical) by groups of people. Some people take these actions consciously, and other people unconsciously contribute energy to those who are consciously scheming.


Then these would be real groups of people (call them sects or whatever) who are consciously and intentially collaborating and using their coordinated energetic actions to accomplish specific social/cultural changes?

It is NOT random, but rather it is ordered by a bunch of energetic beings, all doing their Will. The intentions of some of these beings (like the ExoPols) is less than honorable to their own Will, in that they are trying to find converts. The OTO and Crowley's teachings basically say ALL such proseletyzing activities are wrong (and evil). For what is right (and part of one's Will) for one may not be right (and part of one's Will) for another.


When you say a bunch of energetic beings doing this - do you mean non-physical beings, or physical human beings?

In the controls perspective, one would never want to introduce out-of-phase inputs into a system with a specific goal.
Ray


No, but if one wishes to "test" the system in order to better understand it's functioning, scientifically, then you would want to introduce certain types of inputs into the system with a specific goal - right?

How do you think that might be accomplished? My guess (please correct me here) would be to inject something into the system that is "in phase" with it at first, and then tweak one variable at a time in order to observe how those changes affect the system and where, specifically, that unstable response first creeps up - correct?

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:42 am

Hi again Ry,

ryguy wrote:One thing I noticed regarding the communications that come from many of those groups, however, is that to elevate one's consciousness, one needs to reject the concepts of modern human religious beliefs.


Another red flag, and yes, I do agree this is typical of many offshoot organization that wish to adopt Qabalah/Tree of Life or OTO teachings to their intentions. Here is the OTO website FAQ, and one of the points it makes about "other belief systems":

http://oto-usa.org/faq.html

I'm a [Buddhist|Wiccan|Catholic|Baptist|Druid|etc.]. Can I stay one if I join the O.T.O.?
O.T.O. does not impose restrictions on members' beliefs, or on their affiliations with other organizations that do not attempt to infringe on the rights and operation of O.T.O. However, higher-degree members are expected to avoid allowing their participation in other groups to unduly limit the time and energy they can devote to their O.T.O. obligations.


In short, the only thing the OTO wants you to reject is the idea that you have the right to impact other people's Will to act and interact.

However, if those communications (through channeling and other efforts) come from a collective understanding within the larger "mind," then there's one question that begs asking:

What about other social beliefs that may be outdated and unnecessary other than religion or scientific concepts? It seems that most of these communications focus on social religious beliefs of the day, while not focusing as much on social practices and beliefs that may also be even more outdated than our religion? Why aren't there communications from entities (channeling began in earnest in the 1800's) advising humanity to turn away from slavery, or a barter-and-trade economy (during the time before paper money), or feeding society with information about new technologies that would do away with the need to feed horses and shovel manure during the times of horse-and-buggy? What's their take on humanity's current "rules" concerning marriage being one man and one woman? Or whether our beliefs concerning child labor, animal rights, or our current class system or political systems should be kept or abolished?


Again, this is clearly red flag material, and again I agree that cults and sects (of which I do NOT consider OTO to be one) take this tactic. To me, these types of inconsistencies provide insight into the intention behind the rules and dogma they are suggesting you adopt. Caveat WAY Emptor! ;)

None of that....the overwhelming message, by far, is very singular -- it focuses on the current overwhelming faith or religion of that society and attempts to replace it with a system of faith in an extraterrestrial or a unifying "cosmic" intelligence from above. You can see the pattern repeated throughout the literature of countless sects.


Again, I agree. But again I stress this is NOT OTO, and OTO often gets bad press because of these shenanigans of other, offshoot or "borrowed" traditions. The biggest (IMO) is Scientology. On another note, when it comes to channelings, the OTO does not really try to "explain" or "endorse" these either, even though Crowley is claimed to have been channelled Liber AL vel Legis (The Book Of The Law). So I am also quite suspicious of anyone who comes out and claims they are receiving channellings, especially if they are ongoing. One needs to be able to vet the material in any channelings for oneself. But here is even what the OTO says about The Book Of The Law (from their FAQ):

Do I have to believe in some particular dogma to join O.T.O.?
If you decide to pursue full membership, as a I°, you will be stating that you accept the Book of the Law as written, without wishing to change it. Even in the Minerval degree, you will be making a commitment in the strongest terms to uphold the ideals of freedom set forth in the Book of the Law. However, how you interpret the Book of the Law and its significance is largely up to you.


So there is even lots of leeway here. Who would not wish to uphold freedoms (TOTAL freedoms) of a person to be who they wish, as long as it does not infringe upon the Will of others? In fact, this is the purest form of what we stand for as a Democratic society. Of course, the OTO goes even further than society, for they refuse to "condemn" you for doing things like having premarital sex, homosexual sex, orgies, doing drugs, what have you. In essence, you are TOTALLY free to find and pursue your Will, with only the caveat of not infringing on others. Seems like a pretty easy thing to accept, as compared to so many other spiritual/religious traditions.

By keeping your own house in order you should be drawn to take actions and interact with other energetic forms in a way that brings about the Will of the higher forms of intelligence. (God cannot achieve His/Her Will without us to do the legwork!) :)


So the legwork is, at least in large part, seeking to interact with the energetic forms around us in order to bring about the will of those higher forms of intelligence?


Yes, and the important thing is to not forget that EVERYTHING in your everyday life involves interacting with various energetic forms. In other words, the totality of reality is part and parcel of you finding and fulfilling your Will. The basic concept of "networking" is prevalent throughout Nature...you cannot escape it! Certainly human beings seek to connect with one another, but so do animals, and even cells with similar DNA sequences link-up to form other networking structures (i.e. the human circulatory system, nervous system, etc.). No matter where you look in Nature, you cannot escape that networking and connections are inherent to the entire picture of Nature. So it should be no surprise that one of the collective Wills of the human species results in creation of the internet.

But, then again, the Tree of Life approach also requires an acceptance that it's worldview is true - that we do, in fact, create the phenomenon ourselves through non-physical interactions with those energies/forces...


Actually, that is not entirely true. It is certainly nowhere near the kind of dogmatic requirements that many religious traditions enforce. Example: The Catholic Church makes the statement that masturbation (for one example) is a sin. This is one of many beliefs that you are expected to accept and adhere to (technically). With the OTO, they do not even require you to accept or even use the Tree Of Life. Rather, it is offered as a tool to improve your understanding. You are not expeced (nor required) to "believe it is true", and in fact you are encouraged to investigate it and prove it to yourself (or not, as the case may be). So the philosophical system of Thelema, as taught by OTO, is actually one of the least dogmatic spiritual systems in existence on the planet. MUCH moreso than ALL of the largest mainstream religions. Again, from the OTO FAQ:

What is "Thelema"?
This question is answered at length in our About Thelema section. In brief, Thelema is the religious-magical-philosophical system founded when Aleister Crowley received the Book of the Law in 1904. Its principal tenets can be summarized by the brief phrases, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will."


I really don't think that is asking very much at all to accept these...do you? Now compare that to the nonsense of Church Law as contrived by the fallible humans that invented it (I can guarantee you that NONE of those "laws" came from God! I would stake my immortal soul on that...and have!)

The other part of your quote above that I would correct is when you say "that we do, in fact, create the phenomenon ourselves through non-physical interactions with those energies/forces." You are the one using the term "non-physical". I have pointed out that ALL physical interactions are energetic, so these (very) mundane interactions are part and parcel of the "belief system"...and physics tells us this part is true. Where you use "non-physical" I have selected the word praeter-physical. This invokes the "beyond our current knowledge and understanding" idea we discussed earlier. IOW, we do not CURRENTLY consider praeter-physical energetic interactions as being "physical"... but that does not mean we will forever consider them as such. Rather, they are merely energetic interactions which our physical sciences may not have quantified... and we KNOW there are certainly those kinds of things "out there" waiting to be discovered and quantified.

So again, what the OTO teaches is really not about forcing any dogma which you cannot ascertain for yourself as being axiomatic. (1) Is it not axiomatic that all individuals should be free to find, express, and follow their true Will? (2) If you accept (1) then are we not free to explore for ourselves and convince ourselves (and it is suggested that Nature provides the best guide) of what works or does not work? Truly, Thelema is a very functional philosophical belief structure: If it works for you, and you can and do achieve repeatable results, then "no other shall say nay" (Liber AL vel Legis).

Rather, these things DO come about because of coordinated energetic actions (physical and prater-physical) by groups of people. Some people take these actions consciously, and other people unconsciously contribute energy to those who are consciously scheming.


Then these would be real groups of people (call them sects or whatever) who are consciously and intentially collaborating and using their coordinated energetic actions to accomplish specific social/cultural changes?


Yes. Agreed. And this is why it is important (and long overdue) that we move from the more simple Age of Information and fully embrace the Age of Intention. Because the act of OFFERING social/cultural changes to those who may wish to avail themselves of such changes is not, in and of itself, "evil" or a sin. What determines whether it is "evil" or "good" is the intention behind such groups of people in trying to accomplish such changes. And we cannot forget to evaluate whether these changes are "forced upon" others, either through deceit, trickery, or through an imposed dogma wherein people are told "if you don't accept this, you will not be saved." I put the Catholic Church (which I deem to be different than the teachings of Christ) in this very category. I know you don't like that, but it is the realization I have come to. It is not a judgment of your or your belief systems. Rather, it is my judgment of the people who set-up and continue to propagate such systems that restrain mankind from being truly, completely free to pursue their Will.

It is NOT random, but rather it is ordered by a bunch of energetic beings, all doing their Will. The intentions of some of these beings (like the ExoPols) is less than honorable to their own Will, in that they are trying to find converts. The OTO and Crowley's teachings basically say ALL such proseletyzing activities are wrong (and evil). For what is right (and part of one's Will) for one may not be right (and part of one's Will) for another.


When you say a bunch of energetic beings doing this - do you mean non-physical beings, or physical human beings?


Yes. Both. :D And again I would suggest that "praeter-physical" is a more technically accurate term. The reality is that you and I are both energetic beings, Ryan. I truly and honestly believe that ALL energetic interactions that we engage in (limited only to this wonderful website, so far) are part of "the big picture". Clearly, both of us are fulfilling our Wills in undertaking these energetic interactions. In this sense, we are both acting in a completely "holy" manner, as we are not only fulfilling our Wills, but in doing so we are aiding higher level consicous/energetic beings to achieve their Will. It is a form (perhaps a mundane one) of magickal expression. In fact, science has recently told us that us energetic beings of matter, comprised of baryonic matter, are really only about 4% (actually way less than that considering that 4% accounts for all stars and planets as well) of total universal energy. So while our mundane, physical, energetic interactions are part of the whole picture, we are beginning to scientifically vet that they are a SMALL PART of everything that is going on.

In the controls perspective, one would never want to introduce out-of-phase inputs into a system with a specific goal.
Ray


No, but if one wishes to "test" the system in order to better understand it's functioning, scientifically, then you would want to introduce certain types of inputs into the system with a specific goal - right?


Yes, agreed. But again, we should examine the intention of such a test. If it is merely to better understand such a system, and NOT infringe upon the Will of that system, then all is good. If the intention is to "test" the system to find a way to exploit that system, then we have a different story.

How do you think that might be accomplished? My guess (please correct me here) would be to inject something into the system that is "in phase" with it at first, and then tweak one variable at a time in order to observe how those changes affect the system and where, specifically, that unstable response first creeps up - correct?


I toally agree. And I believe I understand what you are getting at with respect to UFOlogy and the cults and sects that infiltrate this domain. By injecting those "in phase" signals, you are essentially "telling people what they want to hear". You are gaining their confidence. I can easily see this as what goes on in the UFOlogy realm all too often. And then yes, you would tweak certain inputs to observe the outputs. But once again, it all comes down to the intention behind it. We already live in an age where we are inundated with information, and it has become so difficult to validate information that some people have just given up. We are (IMO) witnessing the "explosion of information" all around us, and we can, today, see how it is beginning to tear down aspects of our former ideas about society. We are making the way for the Age of Intention. It is only by being able to exmaine and understand someone's intention for doing what they do, that we can determine if we wish to avail ourselves of their offerings or if we would prefer to avoid such people.

It is my belief that we are soon to enter an age where people can no longer afford to hide their intentions. In the future, if you cannot clearly ascertain someone's intention behind their offering, the majority of people will simply not risk accepting it.

Ray
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