Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:39 pm

BTW, I would like to add and make it eminently clear what I mean by:

You Can Call Me Ray wrote: We already live in an age where we are inundated with information, and it has become so difficult to validate information that some people have just given up. We are (IMO) witnessing the "explosion of information" all around us, and we can, today, see how it is beginning to tear down aspects of our former ideas about society. We are making the way for the Age of Intention.


In one of my first posts here, Caryn and I were discussing how I came about my theory of the progression of ages (Age of Force, Age of Momentum, Age of Energy, Age of Information, and Age of Intention). I put forth that in the transition between ages there were always major upheavals in society going on (usually wars and bad economic times... Age of Information began prior to & during WW II). Clearly, we now see that we have both of these hallmarks going on in our world today. The other part of my theory is that at this transition between ages there is another hallmark: Some type of new, major understanding that science brings forth (Age of Information was brought about by Relativity). This hallmark of the transition of ages is also right in front of us: Dark Energy and Dark Matter are setting the stage for this new understanding of our place in the universe and how the universe works. This discovery is calling for a renewal in physics...an extending of our understanding to include more of the universe.

We live in interesting times... 8)
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:03 pm

Thanks Ray,

In essence, you are TOTALLY free to find and pursue your Will, with only the caveat of not infringing on others. Seems like a pretty easy thing to accept, as compared to so many other spiritual/religious traditions.


It sure is an easy concept for anyone to accept.... Do as you will as long as it doesn't hurt others - sure opens up a lot of doors doesn't it?

What is "Thelema"?
This question is answered at length in our About Thelema section. In brief, Thelema is the religious-magical-philosophical system founded when Aleister Crowley received the Book of the Law in 1904. Its principal tenets can be summarized by the brief phrases, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will."


I really don't think that is asking very much at all to accept these...do you? Now compare that to the nonsense of Church Law as contrived by the fallible humans that invented it (I can guarantee you that NONE of those "laws" came from God! I would stake my immortal soul on that...and have!)


Well...it depends on what exactly you are agreeing to accept, I think? I took a quick look at the Book of the Law today (a few copies are floating around the Internet), and compared it to the bible. And if you assume that both books are offered to humanity by entities - the apparent contradictions between the two are shocking. I draw no judgement here...but are we talking about the same Book of the Law?

Book of Law: "25. Divide, add, multiply, and understand. "

The Christian bible: "“Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding. In all things acknowledge him, and he shall direct your way. [Proverbs 3:5, 6]”


Book of Law: "37. Also the mantras and spells; the obeah and the wanga; the work of the wand and the work of the sword; these he shall learn and teach."

Book of Law: "22. I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this."

Bible: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21"



Book of Law: "18. These are dead, these fellows; they feel not. We are not for the poor and sad: the lords of the earth are our kinsfolk."
Bible: ""Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"


The Book of Law: "77. O be thou proud and mighty among men!
78. Lift up thyself! for there is none like unto thee among men or among Gods! Lift up thyself, o my prophet, thy stature shall surpass the stars. They shall worship thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man; and the name of thy house 418. "

The bible: "And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
(Matthew 23:12)"
"Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
--2 Philippians 2:3"


The Book of Law: "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much! Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter; & destroy them utterly. Swift as a trodden serpent turn and strike! Be thou yet deadlier than he! Drag down their souls to awful torment: laugh at their fear: spit upon them!"

The bible: ""But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Matt 5:39


Wow....
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:19 pm

ryguy wrote:Well...it depends on what exactly you are agreeing to accept, I think? I took a quick look at the Book of the Law today (a few copies are floating around the Internet), and compared it to the bible. And if you assume that both books are offered to humanity by entities - the apparent contradictions between the two are shocking. I draw no judgement here...but are we talking about the same Book of the Law?


Well, I am not sure how you can compare them when you remember that:

1) By design, the Church editors of the Bible purposefully excised any and all mystical material from it. (Separation of Canonical texts from Apocryphal). Hence, none of the types of things that would actually REQUIRE some level of interpretation made it off the cutting room floor.
2) To combat anyone in the future seeking to perform similar editing of the Book Of The Law, Crowely (or was it AIWASS?) specifically stated that the book should always include the original handwritten version, as channelled.
3) The OTO not only allows each individual to interpret the Book Of The Law (BOTL), but they encourage it. Whereas in the Church they tend to only want members of the clergy to comment and/or interpret what the Bible is really saying.

So for these reasons alone, I find it hard to make a one-for-one comparison. But I do agree that the excerpts you pull out are "shocking" to say the least. But your first citation is a synchronistically interesting one, as it has a lot of meaning and background for me...

Book of Law: "25. Divide, add, multiply, and understand. "

The Christian bible: "“Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding. In all things acknowledge him, and he shall direct your way. [Proverbs 3:5, 6]”


This is a great example of where interpretation (and the potential for SPECIFIC messages being targeted to SPECIFIC people) comes into play. The verse from BOTL that you quote above is the one, single quote in the whole book that actually resulted in a major spiritual (and technical) epiphany for me back in the 1986 timeframe. As I mentioned, I was well into studies of Artificial Intelligence back then, and there was an interesting part of the book Godel, Escher, Bach that was talking about terminating vs. non-terminating algorithms and deterministic vs. non-deterministic algos. The discussion in GEB caused me to do some numerical investigations into an integer-based indexing and search algorithm for relating concepts to one another. The algos I was developing used all integer operations and only involved divide (by 2), add (by 1), and multiply (by 3) operations to form the hash algorithm. I found this algo to be VERY powerful in ordering and finding specific relationships between common concepts. It has since been incorporated into a lot of my professional work.

Well, in the middle of doing this AI work was when I started reading BOTL. When I got to the verse you cite above was when I first felt a very "big" spiritual experience like an "a ha"... but bigger. It definitely felt like a "message from beyond" that was saying "You got it". Basically, it was the connection that what this verse was saying had a very specific meaning to me and my AI work. It actually describes what I was doing... by using nothing more than divide (by 2), add (by 1), and multiply (by 3) in dual recursive algorithms, I was able to build a program that exhibited relative knowledge (i.e. promoted understanding by relating one concept to others).

So this very experience convinced me just how important it is for ANY "holy tome" to be open for interpretation by commoners... and this reinforced to me why the OTO's practice of encouraging personal interpretations is so very important. This is a case where most people would not get much from this verse. Rather, the verse has a specific, contextual meaning to someone that was to come later and read it. It is very much an energetic interaction.

So in closing, I think it should be obvious that no one expects anyone to accept the BOTL in its literal sense all the time. Whereas, there are different schools of thought (and Church Law) that says the Bible IS to be taken literally in many cases. Again, this means it is dubious to think you could directly compare them.

BTW, here is another passage from BOTL that I know is speaking to someone, specifically. For many years I thought it was to me, but I am not so sure now. But it is certainly speaking to someone...

Chapter III
75. Aye! listen to the numbers & the words:

76. 4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L. What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever. There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it. But remember, o chose none, to be me; to follow the love of Nu in the star-lit heaven; to look forth upon men, to tell them this glad word.


Wow....


Agreed! :D BOTL pulls no punches, does it?

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:04 am

49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.

50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!

51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.


I'd say that there's little doubt we're on opposite sides of this particular war, my friend....lol.

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:25 am

ryguy wrote:
49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.

50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!

51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.


I'd say that there's little doubt we're on opposite sides of this particular war, my friend....lol.


Heh. Well, that part sure does sound like a judgment to me. So how about answering a few questions about the verses from BOTL that you cite?

1) Have you ever read any commentary (Crowley's or otherwise) on BOTL that may provide an interpretation of these?
2) Do you understand the context of the personas that are speaking in the 3 chapters of BOTL? (Nuit, Hadit, and Ra Hoor Khuit)
3) Do you interpret the following citations from the Bible literally and accept them as truth?

Leviticus 25: (God tells us slavery is OK?)
44.As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.

45.Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.

46.You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

Samuel 15: (the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants?)
2. Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.

3. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but (D)put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'

Luke 19: (Jesus calls for the slaying of his enemies who do not wish to be under his reign? )
26."I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

27.But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."


Of course, there are others. So what about these, Ryan? If you ignore potential interpretations of BOTL, then the same should be true of the Bible, yes? :lol:

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:35 am

BTW...see if you can find the parallels between these, Ryan...LOL

Book of Law: "22. I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all.


Mark 7:
18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?"


8) Of course, if you apply interpretation I am sure you can explain it, right?
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby Access Denied » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:15 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:This hallmark of the transition of ages is also right in front of us: Dark Energy and Dark Matter are setting the stage for this new understanding of our place in the universe and how the universe works. This discovery is calling for a renewal in physics...an extending of our understanding to include more of the universe.

How do you figure?

[probably best answered in a new thread in the “Reality” forum]

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:BTW, here is another passage from BOTL that I know is speaking to someone, specifically. For many years I thought it was to me, but I am not so sure now. But it is certainly speaking to someone...

Chapter III
75. Aye! listen to the numbers & the words:

76. 4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L. What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever. There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it. But remember, o chose none, to be me; to follow the love of Nu in the star-lit heaven; to look forth upon men, to tell them this glad word.

Seriously? Please tell me you didn’t waste a lot of time trying to figure that out?

I’ve never heard of that before but I see it’s even got it’s own web site…

4638ABK24ALGMOR3YX2489RPSTOVAL

WTF?

[edit to add: damn, now the link's not working]

If you want to try your hand at breaking ciphers, why not the CIA Kryptos Sculpture or hell, the Zodiac Killer Letters while you're at it?

Also, I may have missed it but did you say where you believe the TOL came from… ET I presume?
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:22 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:1) Have you ever read any commentary (Crowley's or otherwise) on BOTL that may provide an interpretation of these?


Why? That would be like turning to the Pope or some other human's interpretation instead of my own. I thought you stood against that sort of thing.

2) Do you understand the context of the personas that are speaking in the 3 chapters of BOTL? (Nuit, Hadit, and Ra Hoor Khuit)


I took the context of the book (what came before and after those quotations) into account - the theme, messages, and content doesn't change, nor does it explain away the fact that the author (which we are told is a channeled entity) is clearly trying to convince the reader that everything they were told about the rules of behavior that God laid out were nothing more than lies - and that they CAN and SHOULD use their free will to specifically break every one of those rules. The text stops only slightly short of spitting on the name of every god-focused prophet throughout human history.

3) Do you interpret the following citations from the Bible literally and accept them as truth?


No - I take into account the context of the text itself and what specific story that passage is telling. The lines that you extracted were in the middle of text (before it and after it) that explained the meaning. The lines that I quoted from the Book of Law were explained before and after in the same exact tone and meaning as the quoted text itself - if not worse. I was tempted to quote the whole book, but there's not enough space here...

I only used the contrast with the Bible as one comparison. No comparison is needed though - quoting the Book of Law itself without comparison to anything else still leaves one with the disturbing impression that the author is hateful, violent, angry, and vulgar.

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:27 pm

Access Denied wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:This hallmark of the transition of ages is also right in front of us: Dark Energy and Dark Matter are setting the stage for this new understanding of our place in the universe and how the universe works. This discovery is calling for a renewal in physics...an extending of our understanding to include more of the universe.

How do you figure?


Well, for one thing it overturned the previous belief that the universe was expanding at a constant rate. Whenever a prior belief is overturned by new data, I was always of the understanding that this is a trigger to science to see where our previous understanding was incorrect. I do believe at some point, someone is going to have to come up with a good explanation for DM & DE. Not that anyone has done so yet...


Seriously? Please tell me you didn’t waste a lot of time trying to figure that out?


Heavens, no! Maybe you did not read, or did not understand the underlying message behind my story of "Divide, Add, Multiply, and understand"? In that case I was happily doing my Will (doing AI investigations and algorithm development) when I stumbled upon that line in BOTL and "made the connection". IOW, it did not come from applying my reason to the words and using my conscious mind to figure them out. Rather, it was as a result of doing my Will and the synchronicity of running across that quote while in the process of doing my Will that I "got it". IMO, it was all a playing out of subconscious energetic interactions. It was not reasoned. In the same manner, I would never sit down and try to apply my conscious, reasoning mind to this cipher. That is just not what Thelemites do. Rather, I would tend to believe that it is not even for me to solve, and that there is someone else out there doing their Will who will serendiptously put 2 and 2 together....someday.

If you want to try your hand at breaking ciphers, why not the CIA Kryptos Sculpture or hell, the Zodiac Killer Letters while you're at it?


I am not a code breaker. I'm an algorithm designer. Just not my thang, man. :D

Also, I may have missed it but did you say where you believe the TOL came from… ET I presume?


You presume wrong. Why would you presume that? I mean, c'mon AD, I think I have posted plenty of times enough information about my thoughts on UFOs and ET that you would know I am not of the "true believer" school. In my view, I think the fact that the TOL overlays the architecture of the human body so well that the TOL may have simply come from the mind of a human being... whether or not that particular human being was inspired by a subconscious energetic interaction with a potentially praterhuman intelligence...that is something I might accept. But no, I do not think little green men landed and drew the diagram for Moses and told him all about it.

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:47 pm

ryguy wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:1) Have you ever read any commentary (Crowley's or otherwise) on BOTL that may provide an interpretation of these?


Why? That would be like turning to the Pope or some other human's interpretation instead of my own. I thought you stood against that sort of thing.


Very good. You are doing your Will. You are applying your own interpretation. The reason I was asking was related to the fact that you were clearly making comparisons between the Bible and the BOTL... as if the context and purpose and messages of these books are similar enough to be comparable. The point is, there are PLENTY of interpretations of the Bible by all sorts of people. No one seems to have any problems with them. But when people read this book they immediately assume the face value of the words, and call them evil. That is "falling down into the pit of Because, with the dogs of Reason." You have chosen to apply your conscious reason to the words in the book as your interpretation. That is your Will and no other shall say nay. But in doing this you arrive at the underlying assumption that it must be evil, and therefore anyone that accepts it or studies it should come to the same interpretation as you...and therefore they are on "opposite sides of this particular war" you have dreamed up.

2) Do you understand the context of the personas that are speaking in the 3 chapters of BOTL? (Nuit, Hadit, and Ra Hoor Khuit)


I took the context of the book (what came before and after those quotations) into account - the theme, messages, and content doesn't change, nor does it explain away the fact that the author (which we are told is a channeled entity) is clearly trying to convince the reader that everything they were told about the rules of behavior that God laid out were nothing more than lies - and that they CAN and SHOULD use their free will to specifically break every one of those rules. The text stops only slightly short of spitting on the name of every god-focused prophet throughout human history.


That is your interpretation of your conscious mind. Good for you. Didn't Jesus say "judge not lest ye be judged"? Can you make the distinction of what OTHERS SAY GOD SAID, and what (if anything) God REALLY said? My interpretation is that BOTL is saying that what OTHER PROPHETS said about what God said is nothing more than lies. It is saying that you should follow your Will about "what God says"... not be brainless and simply accept what someone else told you God told them to tell you... If you Will encourages you to accept some of those other beliefs, no other shall say nay.

3) Do you interpret the following citations from the Bible literally and accept them as truth?


No - I take into account the context of the text itself and what specific story that passage is telling. The lines that you extracted were in the middle of text (before it and after it) that explained the meaning. The lines that I quoted from the Book of Law were explained before and after in the same exact tone and meaning as the quoted text itself - if not worse. I was tempted to quote the whole book, but there's not enough space here...


So you are saying the Old Testament does not "quote" God as telling the Israelites to kill people? That is an interesting interpretation... maybe from a subconscious interaction? ;)

I only used the contrast with the Bible as one comparison. No comparison is needed though - quoting the Book of Law itself without comparison to anything else still leaves one with the disturbing impression that the author is hateful, violent, angry, and vulgar.


That is your impression. So mote it be. No other shall say nay.

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:37 pm

Anyway - regardless of our differences in interpreting the channeled material, I do want to thank you for taking the time to lay out how you've interpreted it, and your personal experiences in the 1970's. All of that is extremely helpful in gauging the culture of that time period and understanding those groups. It's an ancillary thread/lead that we're following, so inside "insight" is critical. I always get sidetracked by the "religious" aspects of what people within those groups believe, but ultimately religion and belief systems play only a very small part of the big picture.

So, thanks for your help Ray. In a few weeks or maybe a month, we'll have a bit more to discuss. :)

Cheers,
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:50 pm

ryguy wrote: I always get sidetracked by the "religious" aspects of what people within those groups believe, but ultimately religion and belief systems play only a very small part of the big picture.


Me too! :) It is clear we are both passionate about our "belief systems". And I still think we are closer than either of us might imagine because, as I have said before, I do not reject the message of Christ. In fact, one could even summarize his message as "Love is the Law. Love under Will." ;)

So, thanks for your help Ray. In a few weeks or maybe a month, we'll have a bit more to discuss. :)


Cool. I look forward. Glad to be of help.
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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:08 pm

Oh shoot! I knew there was something I forgot to ask!

I found this guy on the Internet, and saw that he was writing a LOT about the Tree of Life concepts that you've discussed here. Is this the brother that you mentioned above? His name is David Radius Hudson - I was curious if there's a family connection?

Just curious because he met and held conversations with Puthoff. If you have any insight on who he is it would be really helpful!

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:47 pm

ryguy wrote:Oh shoot! I knew there was something I forgot to ask!

I found this guy on the Internet, and saw that he was writing a LOT about the Tree of Life concepts that you've discussed here. Is this the brother that you mentioned above? His name is David Radius Hudson - I was curious if there's a family connection?


Hahahahaha! :) No, there is no family connection... although my oldest brother, who was a Naval aviator many years ago, is named David Robert Hudson. Too funny. I was familiar with this "Radius" Hudson dude and his ORMUS claims from awhile back. I believe Sarfatti and his ISEP group debunked most of it. But I was not aware that this guy was also talking Tree Of Life stuff. So now you've given me impetus to go see what kind of stuff this guy is spewing and what connections he is trying to make. Got any links to his TOL discussions that I can look at?

Just curious because he met and held conversations with Puthoff. If you have any insight on who he is it would be really helpful!


Sorry, other than the above and Sarfatti working him over, I know nothing (yet). But if he is having tallks with Puthoff then the money trail can't be far behind, eh? ;)

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Re: Tree Of Life, Systems, & Angels & Demons

Postby ryguy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:27 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:So now you've given me impetus to go see what kind of stuff this guy is spewing and what connections he is trying to make. Got any links to his TOL discussions that I can look at?


Sure - this page is where he discusses the TOL.

Sorry, other than the above and Sarfatti working him over, I know nothing (yet). But if he is having tallks with Puthoff then the money trail can't be far behind, eh? ;)

Ray


lol...yeah you could say that. Found this part interesting:

When I met Hal Puthoff, he said, “Dave, you know what this means, it means, when you can control space-time, if you control gravity, and you control gravity, you are controlling space-time. So literally what these atoms are doing is they are bending space-time to weigh 5/9s. There are theories in the published journals, credible journals, about moving faster than the speed of light, from one place to another.
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"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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