"Stalked by a UFO Skeptic" [Anthony Bragalia]

[astrophotographer]

AD: Yes, I took that of Mars back in 2005. The bright patch in the lower left is a dust storm. Now it is too hard to image Mars until the next series of close oppositions about a decade away. Edit: I changed it to an image I thought was better and gave better resolution of the features.

AB:I really see no need to go in this direction but I feel a need to explain the series of events. Mr. Bragalia's "professionalism" in our discussions have run the range of somewhat responsive to downright nasty. The "Blah...Blah...Blah..." comment is after he went into a long winded diatribe about how great his research was, how it should not be questioned, and then stated that I bit like a rabid dog. My "try again" response has to do with what he presented is not very convincing evidence at all. His use of less than pleasant language in some of our exchanges was insulting so you might understand my response. It is important to note that while Bragalia keeps stating I was trying to "milk" him for information, I only initiated one series of E-mail conversations back in late July when I was trying to determine the source of the photograph showing Shiprock. That exchange ended when I asked if he had examined any records from Life Magazine and he then referred to me as ignorant. All other e-mail exchanges were initiated by him. If I were trying to "milk" him for information, I would think that I would be the one constantly hounding him with all sorts of e-mails. Instead, he has barraged me with "check this new blog posting I have". I would naturally ask "explain this" or "what about that"? If that was "milking" him for information, I guesss I am guilty. You can cuff me and take me away.

If you really want to see Mr. Bragalia's temperment in our e-mail exchanges, I suggest you just go over the UFO iconclasts website and examine his responses to various individuals who have disagreed with his Zamora hoax story. It is very revealing.

[Access Denied]

Actually, I think I liked the other pic better. It seemed to have a more natural and mysterious feel to it… then again, you know how subjective our observations can be.

Cuff you and take you away? What is the point of communicating if not the exchange of information and ideas? They’re going to need a bigger paddywagon…

You know, about the Zamora thing, I can’t help but wonder if the class hoax that year was to hoax the school president… if so, good one. As for the “UFO Iconoclast(s)”, I can’t help but think Anthony is being used in a marketing campaign… for his sake, I hope not unwittingly.

[edit to add]

There's a reason why Science instituted the process of peer review...

[lost_shaman]

You can’t claim it was only a matter opinion now because you in fact cited evidence.

2) One of the sources you cited as evidence in fact refutes your claim of fact…

“…the Civil Air Patrol was transferred from the Department of the Army to the Department of the Air Force effective noon EST 21 May 1948”

If the CAP was not in fact a part of the Army prior to 1948 as you claimed it couldn’t have been transferred to the Air Force from the Army in 1948 per your own source.

That's true. This particular case isn't so much about opinion or interpretation - the above source cited as evidence proves that the CAP was part of the Dept of the Army in 1948, which clearly disproves the first verifiable statement.

It seems we have determined in private conversations that I was not incorrect and that the CAP was not "part of" either the Army or the USAF between the dates I've previously stated. Furthermore, all things "AAF" ceased to exist on Sept. 26th when Secretary Forrestall signed Transfer order No. 1 which transfered all "AAF" Bases, Officers, Units, and enlisted personell to the USAF with only a very few number of exceptions. (Liaison Officers to CAP were not the exception.) After that date no such thing as the "AAF" existed.

[ryguy]

It seems we have determined in private conversations that I was not incorrect and that the CAP was not "part of" either the Army or the USAF between the dates I've previously stated. Furthermore, all things "AAF" ceased to exist on Sept. 26th when Secretary Forrestall signed Transfer order No. 1 which transfered all "AAF" Bases, Officers, Units, and enlisted personell to the USAF with only a very few number of exceptions. (Liaison Officers to CAP were not the exception.) After that date no such thing as the "AAF" existed.

Just to be clear - what we've agreed upon privately is that there's enough "reasonable doubt" regarding semantics so that the issue isn't cut and dry enough to make it a matter of fact. With that said, I still don't really follow - because there's two issues here. One, how the AAF or USAF was identified before and after 1948, and whether CAP was a part of the organization beforehand. I'm convinced that the transition from AAF to USAF is causing a lot of confusion, but I'm not 100% convinced CAP was not part of the organization prior to 1948. For the sake of clarity, I would still like to know how CAP can be transferred from the Army, per your source, if it wasn't already part of the Army? I know you tried to lay some of it out via PM, but I think a public discussion would be beneficial.

Let's finally clarify this point as briefly as possible so we can all move on...

-Ryan

[lost_shaman]

One, how the AAF or USAF was identified before and after 1948,

In Sept. 1947 the Army Air Force split from the Army and became a seperate branch of the Military the U. S. Air Force. After that there are three branches the Navy, Army, and USAF. All three maintained and flew aircraft but the only Air Force was the USAF and no such thing as the Army Air Force existed after Sept. 1947.

and whether CAP was a part of the organization beforehand. I'm convinced that the transition from AAF to USAF is causing a lot of confusion, but I'm not 100% convinced CAP was not part of the organization prior to 1948.

During the war under the authority given to the President by the First War Powers Act, 1941, the President issued executive order 9339 that transferred CAP from the Office of Civilian Defense over to the War Department under the AAF. However, CAP still remained a civilian volunteer organization and its members were not considered military personnel but civilians.

CAP remained under the War Department for the duration of the war but after the war was over the national emergency was over and there was no longer any legal basis for the AAF to continue to fund CAP or for CAP to even exist after the war. The decision was made that the AAF would stop funding CAP in the spring of 1946, however Gen. Spaatz did agree to continue limited support of CAP until the time of issuance of Federal Charter which Congress passed on July 1, 1946.

By act of Congress on July 1, 1946 the legal basis for CAP's existence fundamentally changed as CAP was now a federally chartered private nonprofit corporation and was now no-longer under the authority of the War Department or the AAF although like other Federally chartered corporations where Government Authorities typically make appointments, the Commanding General AAF was the named by Congress as the Government Authority who made appointments to the Board of CAP and appointed its National Commander. This explains why Gen. Spaatz is able to appoint both Brig. Gen. Frederick H. Smith and Major General Lucas V. Beau as CAP National Commander after July 1, 1946 even though CAP is no-longer under the Authority of the War Department or the AAF.

Quoting the Air Force's history of CAP contained in AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-2701.

"Although Congress chartered CAP as a non-profit corporation (July 1, 1946 - Lost_shaman), the Air Force lacked the legal basis to provide CAP with assistance, advice, and oversight and to authorize the Air Force to use the services of CAP. With the strong backing of the Secretary of the Air Force and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Congress designated CAP as the Auxiliary of the Air Force on 26 May 1948. This act authorized the Secretary of the Air Force to accept and utilize the services of CAP in the fulfillment of the non-combat missions of the Air Force."

For the sake of clarity, I would still like to know how CAP can be transferred from the Army, per your source, if it wasn't already part of the Army? I know you tried to lay some of it out via PM, but I think a public discussion would be beneficial.

The source used a poor choice of words with no explanation and that was not the point being made that I chose the source to quote. There was no "transfer" of CAP to the USAF "from" the Army, what the source is talking about but fails to even mention is the fact that Congress passed Public Law 80-557 (May 26, 1948) which changed the Government Authority that names appointees to Cap from the Commanding General AAF (which no longer even existed at this point) to the Secretary of the USAF. (Please note here that CAP wing Commanders have no authority to "transfer" anything from one Branch of the Military to another in the first place. They can however, issue public announcements which is what this is a reference to.)

With all this being said and explained one thing must be clear and beyond refute, the U.S. Courts have always held and maintained that CAP was founded as a volunteer civilian organization and has always remained a volunteer civilian organization which only officially became the USAF Auxiliary by act of Congress May 26, 1948 (Pub. Law 80-557).

To quote the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals (1952) 198 F2d 660 United States v. Popham

"By section 2 of the Act of July 1, 1946, 60 Stat. 346, Congress incorporated the Civil Air Patrol, 36 U.S.C.A. § 202. Among the stated purposes of the incorporation were 'to assist in meeting local and national emergencies', and 'to encourage and develop by example the voluntary contribution of private citizens to the public welfare', and 'to encourage and foster civil aviation in local communities'. By the Act of May 26, 1948, 62 Stat. 274, 5 U.S.C.A., § 626l, Congress provided that the Civil Air Patrol is established as a volunteer civil auxiliary of the United States Air Force. The legislative history of this Act is contained in Senate Report No. 1374, 1948 U.S.C. Cong. Service, p. 1606. In this report it is stated that: 'The purpose of this bill is to establish as permanent law the Civil Air Patrol as a volunteer civilian auxiliary to the United States Air Force'. And in the explanation of the bill it is said that: 'The Civil Air Patrol was formed early in the last war, as a volunteer organization, to mobilize civilian airmen for national defense, and for the benefit of aviation in general.' Beyond question the Civil Air Patrol was from its inception a civilian organization. That it has retained its civilian character throughout its existence is shown by its treatment at the hands of Congress in the Acts discussed above. In this connection it is significant that although it was within the power of Congress at any time to include the Civil Air Patrol in a definition of military or naval forces of the United States it has never done so."

To quote a phrase from the above it should be "beyond question" that CAP was not "part of" the AAF or USAF between July 1, 1946 and May 26, 1948 which is what I originally stated in this thread on page 2.

[lost_shaman]

Understanding the history here is the first step, now that I believe this is resolved the next step is to point out that Major Phillips as an Officer in the AAF (July '47) and USAF (Nov. '47) would have been assigned a Military aircraft to preform his Liaison duties as CAP Liaison Officer for Kirtland field/AFB. This is evidenced in part by the fact that the photograph in question shows Allan Grant and Major Phillips in front of an AT-6 Texan 'trainer' where "AAF" appears prominently.

Also the courts describe the relationship between the Civil Air Patrol and it's Military Liaison officers in the case of 234 F2d 861 United States v. M Alexander (1956) here even after the passage of Pub. Law 80-557 (May 26 1948) that established CAP as the USAF Auxiliary it is described that Liaison Officers assigned to CAP are USAF Officers that are part of the Headquarters Squadron and not subject to the orders of the CAP Wing Commander or his staff (CAP being a civilian nonprofit corporation). As a Liaison Officer (USAF) to CAP Lt. Singleton (in 1950), like Major Phillips in 1947, was assigned a USAF aircraft to preform his Liaison duties.

Clearly Liaison Officers assigned to CAP are Military Officers and are assigned Military Aircraft and are subject to the Military not the CAP and these Aircraft are owned by the Military and the carriage of passengers is subject to Military regulations. While there may have been some changes between 1947 and 1950 by and large the above would have been true for Major Phillips in 1947.

Understanding the history that no such thing as the "AAF" existed in November 1947, the idea that Major Phillips is flying an aircraft that says "Grant in the AAF, Read the Story" (November 1947) as Tim Printy suggests makes no sense. The arrangements for Grant to fly with Maj. Phillips would have to be approved in advance by regulations and the Meteor event itself only occurred on Oct. 30, 1947. Dr. La Paz started planning the search Nov. 2nd so there was only 3-4 days were Grant could be included and authorised. The idea from a historic stand point that his name was placed on Maj. Phillips AT-6 Texan and "AAF" was used rather than "USAF" is seriously questionable and flawed if not utter nonsense.

[Access Denied]

Well, I really should just let this thread die a merciful death but for the record, I was not involved with, nor consulted on, any of the conversations Seth had with Ryan. Seth may be able to fool Ryan but in addition to that which was posted previously, he can’t argue with this offical factsheet prepared by the Air Force Historical Research Agency that refutes his claim…

Civil Air Patrol, USAF (AETC)
http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/fact ... p?id=15355

[note the underlined dates in particular]

Lineage. Established as Civil Air Patrol on 28 May 1943. Activated on 1 Jun 1943. Redesignated National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol on 15 Sep 1944. Redesignated Civil Air Patrol, USAF on 28 Aug 1948.

Assignments. HQ, Army Air Forces (AAF), 1 Jun 1943; AAF Training Command, 1 May 1945; HQ AAF, 12 Feb 1946; Air Defense Command, 1 Aug 1947; HQ USAF, 1 Feb 1948; Headquarters Command USAF, 19 Jan 1949; Continental Air Command, 1 Jan 1959; Headquarters Command USAF, 1 Aug 1968; Air University, 1 Jul 1976-.

Also, from Wikipedia…

National Commanders of the Civil Air Patrol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_C ... Air_Patrol

From 1941 to August 1975 the National Commander of CAP was an appointed USAAF or USAF Officer.

USAAF-USAF National Commanders
Maj. Gen. John F. Curry, USAAF, Dec 1941-Mar 1942
Col. (Brig. Gen. posthumous) Earle E. Johnson, USAAF, Mar 1942-Feb 1947
Brig. Gen. Frederick H. Smith, USAF 21 Feb 1947 - 30 Sep 1947
Maj. Gen. Lucas V. Beau, USAF, 1 Oct 1947 - 31 Dec 1955

This has nothing do with opinion, semantics, legal basis or any other BS excuse Seth has been using to avoid retracting his disingenuous claim that the CAP (the C stands for Civilian in case anybody missed that) was not part of the AAF or the AF between 1946 and 1948. As evidenced above, obviously they were as far as the AAF and AF was concerned. Those are the facts, judge Seth’s credibility and intellectual honesty for yourself…

That said, the only issue that’s actually relevant to this (now completely derailed) thread is whether or not it’s impossible for the aircraft Allan Grant is pictured with to apparently say something (exactly what remains open to interpretation as Tim readily admits) about the AAF in November of 1947 (if that’s when it was taken) simply because the USAAF became (on paper) the USAF (lost an A) a mere month and a half earlier in September of 1947. For all we know it could be something leftover from an unrelated publicity stunt (after all money was tight) or say “CAP NOT IN THE AAF” lol…



Anyway, I agree with Tim, I see no evidence to support the Grant’s or Bragalia’s claim when arguably there should be, and all the alleged evidence we do have is contradictory or inconclusive at best…

[what else in new?]

AD
Stalked by a UFO Believer

[astrophotographer]

Sorry but I have been busy the last few days and could not respond as I would like. I see that AD has made a response already but I want to add my two cents.

In Sept. 1947 the Army Air Force split from the Army and became a seperate branch of the Military the U. S. Air Force. After that there are three branches the Navy, Army, and USAF. All three maintained and flew aircraft but the only Air Force was the USAF and no such thing as the Army Air Force existed after Sept. 1947.

I think this is not as clear cut as you state. There are numerous discussions in the media at the time, where there are references to the AAF. A most notable example is this photograph of an airplane being donated to a Missouri CAP unit (Chillicothe Constitution-Tribune April 7, 1948). The photograph states "Shown above, parked on the east side of the administration builing at the municipal airport is the Army Air Force owned L-4-J piper "Cub" light plane lent the Civil Air Patrol unit here". Additionally, in the October 7, 1948 edition of the Cumberland evening news, we have a description of a CAP meeting. Again, there is mention of an "L-4 army liason plane" being used by the CAP.


Also, almost all the bases were not renamed "air force base" until January 1948. Most still had the Army Air field name because it took some time to sort things out. According to Wikipedia, the unit in charge of Kirtland Air field was the 428th AAF Base Unit until March 10, 1949. The name change date for Kirtland is hard to pinpoint. In some instances, sources say the name change was instantaneous but at a USAF website, it states this did not happen until 13 January 1948, which is consistent with most other base histories I have read. It seems likely that this name change happened USAF wide. Finally, the transfer of personnel did not happen instantaneously. They were transferred through a "series of implemental transfer orders" that occurred over a two year period. A good example of this is in the Albuquerque journal of 30 September 1947 (12 days after the official creation of the USAF when the AAF supposedly ceased to exist):
Captain Albert N. Hasson, U, S. Army and Air Forces recruiting officer, announces the following enlistments: Sgt. Gerald G. Bouffard,2701'A North Fifth Street,AAF Kirtland Field, Albuquerque; Pfc. John A. Hodges, 504 San Clemente Drive, AAF Base Jilit, KAAF, Albuquerque; Pvt. George J. Gallegos, Pajarilo. AAF Unassigned; Pvt. Andrew J. Alderete 724 West Pacific AAF unassigned; PVT Frank Lopez 103 west claremont, AAFBU KAAF, Albuquerque; Pvt Gilbert Canderlaria 317 South third street, regular army unassigned. All chose three year enlistments.

Notice the statement of enlistment into the AAF (as well as referring to Kirtland as an Army airfield indicating the January 1948 date is probably accurate). Why not announce they were enlisting in the NEW USAF if the AAF had ceased to exist on the 18th? This is apparently because the USAF, while established in name, was not quite established as far as personnel and equipment. It would take some time to get personnel transferred and for the USAF to establish its training.

Understanding the history here is the first step, now that I believe this is resolved the next step is to point out that Major Phillips as an Officer in the AAF (July '47) and USAF (Nov. '47) would have been assigned a Military aircraft to preform his Liaison duties as CAP Liaison Officer for Kirtland field/AFB. This is evidenced in part by the fact that the photograph in question shows Allan Grant and Major Phillips in front of an AT-6 Texan 'trainer' where "AAF" appears prominently.

Actually, I do not believe the history has been resolved. When I discussed this with a Major in the CAP, they informed me the CAP was part of the Army before they became part of the USAF. He could be wrong but I don't think you have resolved the issue. Obviously, the CAP was closely related to the US Army prior to being associated with the USAF. Otherwise, the Army would not be giving them liason planes and officers.
As for your designation of Major Phillips as being immediately transferred to the USAF in September 1947, do you have his military records to prove this? I would be interested if you do because it could resolve the whole issue. Without them, we are just guessing. Still, we have the problem with Kirtland probably being referred to as Army Air Field in November 1947 and the unit responsible for Kirtland being an Army Air Force unit until 1949. Since the transfer of such units did not occur until after November 1947, the AAF label could have been placed on the plane simply because they were not associated with the USAF at the time.

Understanding the history that no such thing as the "AAF" existed in November 1947, the idea that Major Phillips is flying an aircraft that says "Grant in the AAF, Read the Story" (November 1947) as Tim Printy suggests makes no sense. The arrangements for Grant to fly with Maj. Phillips would have to be approved in advance by regulations and the Meteor event itself only occurred on Oct. 30, 1947. Dr. La Paz started planning the search Nov. 2nd so there was only 3-4 days were Grant could be included and authorised. The idea from a historic stand point that his name was placed on Maj. Phillips AT-6 Texan and "AAF" was used rather than "USAF" is seriously questionable and flawed if not utter nonsense.

Again, I think we need to look closer at the history. You state this as if it has been resolved. I don't think it has. Your proclamation that it is "utter nonsense" is incorrect. I have demonstrated that the US Army had a role with the CAP in early 1948 (giving. As far as the prompt inclusion of Grant with the search, I am not sure where you are going with this. LIFE calls the CAP/AAF/USAF (whatever) and they get a plane arranged. As part of the "show" a slogan is painted on the plane. This would take no great planning and effort since the CAP was going to be involved anyway with the search. This obviously happened since it was documented in the newspapers that Grant was present and was flown in a CAP plane. This is far more likely than the idea of a quick call from the AAF to LIFE alerting they wanted Grant flown to Roswell for an apparent public meteorite hunt (that was never published or announced).

Finally, as a potential alternate theory to all of this concerning the one photograph, I think we can examine what Phillips was doing in July 1947. There was an air tour of the state by CAP planes for the week of July 21-27 to celebrate aviation week. CAP planes from all the neighboring states were involved and included flights to various air bases in the state (they were supposed to see a V-2 launch but that got scrubbed). Perhaps the photograph of Grant with Phillips might have come from that publicity event. That seems probable but I can't place Grant there and photographs of the plane are not present in any papers. However, this is far more likely than an announced/undocumented meteorite hunt associated with Roswell. It would also match up with your concerns about the AAF.

[lost_shaman]

Well, I really should just let this thread die a merciful death but for the record, I was not involved with, nor consulted on, any of the conversations Seth had with Ryan. Seth may be able to fool Ryan but in addition to that which was posted previously, he can’t argue with this offical factsheet prepared by the Air Force Historical Research Agency that refutes his claim…

No Tom, you were privy to many e-mails in which I explained all this in detail to you. Once you failed to respond the e-mail conversation ended.

Civil Air Patrol, USAF (AETC)
http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/fact ... p?id=15355

[note the underlined dates in particular]

Lineage. Established as Civil Air Patrol on 28 May 1943. Activated on 1 Jun 1943. Redesignated National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol on 15 Sep 1944. Redesignated Civil Air Patrol, USAF on 28 Aug 1948.

Assignments. HQ, Army Air Forces (AAF), 1 Jun 1943; AAF Training Command, 1 May 1945; HQ AAF, 12 Feb 1946; Air Defense Command, 1 Aug 1947; HQ USAF, 1 Feb 1948; Headquarters Command USAF, 19 Jan 1949; Continental Air Command, 1 Jan 1959; Headquarters Command USAF, 1 Aug 1968; Air University, 1 Jul 1976-.

What you fail to understand is that you are looking at the history of the CAP-AAF/USAF unit of which personnel such as Major Phillips would be assigned to. Even today Military personnel that liaison for CAP function under the CAP-USAF designation. There is no mystery here Tom and this certainly does not "refute" what I've said or what the history is.

Also, from Wikipedia…

National Commanders of the Civil Air Patrol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_C ... Air_Patrol

From 1941 to August 1975 the National Commander of CAP was an appointed USAAF or USAF Officer.

USAAF-USAF National Commanders
Maj. Gen. John F. Curry, USAAF, Dec 1941-Mar 1942
Col. (Brig. Gen. posthumous) Earle E. Johnson, USAAF, Mar 1942-Feb 1947
Brig. Gen. Frederick H. Smith, USAF 21 Feb 1947 - 30 Sep 1947
Maj. Gen. Lucas V. Beau, USAF, 1 Oct 1947 - 31 Dec 1955

Nothing here supports your claim Tom, I've already explained how the federal charter of CAP named a government official, in this case the Commanding General, AAF, to make appointments to CAP both in private e-mails to you a month ago and here in this thread. The current law names the Secretary of the Air Force, in this respect CAP is no different than virtually any other federally chartered corporation which have Government officials designated to make appointments.

This has nothing do with opinion, semantics, legal basis or any other BS excuse Seth has been using to avoid retracting his disingenuous claim that the CAP (the C stands for Civilian in case anybody missed that) was not part of the AAF or the AF between 1946 and 1948. As evidenced above, obviously they were as far as the AAF and AF was concerned. Those are the facts, judge Seth’s credibility and intellectual honesty for yourself…

I don't need to use Ad Hominems to support my position nor am I disingenuous as I'm able to evidence what I'm saying. I'll leave it at that. I've posted the Air Force version of CAP history via AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-2701.

"Although Congress chartered CAP as a non-profit corporation (July 1, 1946 - Lost_shaman), the Air Force lacked the legal basis to provide CAP with assistance, advice, and oversight and to authorize the Air Force to use the services of CAP."

I didn't write the above the Air Force did. If it's wrong then take it up with them (Tom). Otherwise I don't think its my credibility and intellectual honesty that should be on trial here but rather yours.

l_s

[lost_shaman]

Also, almost all the bases were not renamed "air force base" until January 1948. Most still had the Army Air field name because it took some time to sort things out. According to Wikipedia, the unit in charge of Kirtland Air field was the 428th AAF Base Unit until March 10, 1949.

Not true at all. The answer is simple the Wiki reference just failed to mention that the 428th AAF BU was renamed 428th AF BU after the creation of the USAF. It was not an Army unit operating out of Kirtland it was an USAF unit.

See Link
- pg. 291 428 AAF BU listed in parentheses as (428 AF BU)

See Link
- On 22 July 1948 M/Sgt. William R. Carter, AF 6852242, and M/Sgt. Bernard E. Harvey, AF 6996575, 428th AFBU, Kirtland Air Force Base, made substantially the following statement to this agent:

Finally, the transfer of personnel did not happen instantaneously. They were transferred through a "series of implemental transfer orders" that occurred over a two year period. A good example of this is in the Albuquerque journal of 30 September 1947 (12 days after the official creation of the USAF when the AAF supposedly ceased to exist):
Captain Albert N. Hasson, U, S. Army and Air Forces recruiting officer, announces the following enlistments: Sgt. Gerald G. Bouffard,2701'A North Fifth Street,AAF Kirtland Field, Albuquerque; Pfc. John A. Hodges, 504 San Clemente Drive, AAF Base Jilit, KAAF, Albuquerque; Pvt. George J. Gallegos, Pajarilo. AAF Unassigned; Pvt. Andrew J. Alderete 724 West Pacific AAF unassigned; PVT Frank Lopez 103 west claremont, AAFBU KAAF, Albuquerque; Pvt Gilbert Canderlaria 317 South third street, regular army unassigned. All chose three year enlistments.

Notice the statement of enlistment into the AAF (as well as referring to Kirtland as an Army airfield indicating the January 1948 date is probably accurate). Why not announce they were enlisting in the NEW USAF if the AAF had ceased to exist on the 18th? This is apparently because the USAF, while established in name, was not quite established as far as personnel and equipment. It would take some time to get personnel transferred and for the USAF to establish its training.

See my post above from Oct. 28. There I point out that Forrestal signed transfer order No. 1 on Sept. 26, 1947, its effective date seems to have been Oct. 1, 1947, where this transfer order is appearently the largest and most comprhensive of the 40 transfer orders signed over the two year period. Basically everything under the command, control, or jurisdiction of the Commanding General, AAF, is transferred over to the Chief of Staff, USAF, or the Department of the Air Force including property, installations, units, officers, enlisted men, ect. See reference below.

Planning and Organizing the Postwar Air Force, 1943-1947 pp.207-208

The Army-Air Force argements by themselves did not transfer functions or personnel. Following creation of the United states Air Force on September 18, 1947, and issuance of the joint agrements worked out by Collins and Vandenberg, Secretary of Defense Forrestal signed and published a series of implemental transfer orders. Forrestal emphasized that these orders would mutually agreed upon and written by the Army and Air Force. Orders entailing extensive coordination by the Secretary of Defense would be disapproved. Transfers that duplicated organizations would also be turned down unless these functions were absolutely essential (organic). In areas where Forrestal felt that a reallocation of functions was in order , the services would be requested to submit recommendations. Transfer orders would be sent to the Secretary of Defense by a joint memorandum signed by the Secretaries of the Army and Air Force. Funding would be adjusted betwee the two services until the Air Force produced an appropriations plan approved by the Bureau of the Budget and the proper congressional committees.
In 1947 the first major orders transfered personnel and some primary functions from the Army to the Air Force. The first transfer order was signed by Forrestal on September 26, 1947. It stipulated that functions of the Secretary of the Army and Department of the Army, which were assigned to or under the control of the Commanding General, AAF, would be transfered to the Secretary of the Air Force and the Department of the Air Force. Also, most units under AAF control were transfered to the United States Air Force.* The initial order stated that the functions of the Commanding General, General Headquarters Air Force (Air Force Combat Command); of the Chief of Air Corps; and the Commanding General, AAF, were transfered to the Chief of Staff, USAF.
All officers commisioned in the Army Air Corps and officers holding commissions in the Air Corps Reserve were transfered to the Department of the Air Force. All warrant officers and enlisted men under the Commanding General, AAF (with some few exceptions) were transferred to the Department of the Air Force. Officer and enlisted members of the Women's Army Corps, on duty with the AAF, would remain assigned with the Army until enactment of legislation establishing procedures for the appointment and enlistment of women in the United States Air Force. In addition, the property, records, installations, agencies, activities, projects, and civilian personnel under the jurisdiction, control, or command of the Commanding General, AAF, would be continued under the jurisdiction, control, or command of the Chief of Staff, USAF.

*The exeptions were chiefly some engineer and medical units.

Actually, I do not believe the history has been resolved. When I discussed this with a Major in the CAP, they informed me the CAP was part of the Army before they became part of the USAF. He could be wrong but I don't think you have resolved the issue. Obviously, the CAP was closely related to the US Army prior to being associated with the USAF. Otherwise, the Army would not be giving them liason planes and officers.

Part of the confusion ,IMO, stems from the reference to the Army when talking about the AAF and the reference to the AAF when talking about the Army. During the War and immediately after until July 1, 1946 when congress federally charted CAP, CAP was under the War department assigned to the AAF by executive order of the President by authority given to him by the First War Powers Act, 1941. This allowed civilian members of CAP (a civilian organization) to enter active duty (as civilians) and serve under the command of the Commanding General, AAF, and to carry arms and bombs on their civilian aircraft and engage the enemy. This is the connection between the AAF and CAP, the end of hostilities and therefore the National emergency and the federal charter of CAP by congress ended this connection. If by "Army" you mean "AAF" and by the above explaination you mean "part of", then that is a poor choice of words and an oversimplified explanation IMO.

I could explain further but there really is no need to do so. If you are correct then simply name the person who succeeded General Spaatz as Commanding General, AAF. That would effectively prove me wrong but I'm confident that no such person nor office existed after Oct. 1, 1947.

As for your designation of Major Phillips as being immediately transferred to the USAF in September 1947, do you have his military records to prove this? I would be interested if you do because it could resolve the whole issue. Without them, we are just guessing.

There is no guessing to it as an officer falling under the command of the Commanding General, AAF, Major Phillips like all other officers was transferred over to the USAF by transfer order No. 1 signed by SECDEF Forrestal on Sept. 26, 1947.

Still, we have the problem with Kirtland probably being referred to as Army Air Field in November 1947 and the unit responsible for Kirtland being an Army Air Force unit until 1949. Since the transfer of such units did not occur until after November 1947, the AAF label could have been placed on the plane simply because they were not associated with the USAF at the time.

Again see above. This unit was transferred along with most other units by transfer order no. 1. Saying the transfer of such units did not occur until after November 1947 is just wrong. I've also provided a link to a primary source document above where members of this unit were listed as USAF before 1949. That proves your interpretation of the Wiki reference is flawed.

Again, I think we need to look closer at the history. You state this as if it has been resolved. I don't think it has. Your proclamation that it is "utter nonsense" is incorrect. I have demonstrated that the US Army had a role with the CAP in early 1948

IMO, I don't think you have "demonstrated" any such thing. Almost everything you and Tom had was easily shot down as far as I'm concerned. Wiki references won't cut the mustard. Also, we have no idea where the reporters in the two articles you pointed out got their infomation. Concidering that the "AAF" didn't exist, IMO these articles are questionable at best and certainly do not show the "AAF" still existed. If that were the case you would be able to prove it with primary sources otherwise it is likely you can find several errant references to the "AAF" that mean nothing which you've shown exist and nothing more.

[Access Denied]

I don't need to use Ad Hominems to support my position nor am I disingenuous as I'm able to evidence what I'm saying. I'll leave it at that. I've posted the Air Force version of CAP history via AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-2701.

"Although Congress chartered CAP as a non-profit corporation (July 1, 1946 - Lost_shaman), the Air Force lacked the legal basis to provide CAP with assistance, advice, and oversight and to authorize the Air Force to use the services of CAP."

I didn't write the above the Air Force did. If it's wrong then take it up with them (Tom). Otherwise I don't think its my credibility and intellectual honesty that should be on trial here but rather yours.

Well, as usual, Seth is being both intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive. He quotes from an outdated copy (21 DECEMBER 2000) of Air Force Instruction 10-2701 he got from here and did not provide a link for…

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/sudoc/image_3 ... 0-2701.pdf

The current version (29 JULY 2005, Incorporating Change 1, 29 September 2006) is here and does not contain the part he quoted…

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf

However, the version he quoted from says this in the paragraph immediately before the one he quoted and conveniently omitted…

“1.1.3. Congressional Charter as a Non-Profit Corporation. At the end of the war, the state of national emergency that gave the legal authority for the existence of CAP was terminated. The Army Air Force continued to provide limited assistance to CAP, including leadership by Army Air Force personnel. At the urging of the senior leaders of the Army Air Force and prominent members of the aviation community, CAP was chartered by act of Congress on 1 July 1946 as a non-profit corporation to enable CAP to continue to provide its services to the armed forces and the Nation.”

So, in summary, Seth has been mistakenly arguing that the CAP was not a part of the AAF or AF between 1946 and 1948 because it was incorporated by Congress in 1946 when in reality it was incorporated in order for it to continue to be part of the AAF in 1946. Furthermore, it was designated as the Auxiliary of the AF by Congress in 1948 in order for it to continue to be part of the newly formed AF since it had previously been designated by the President as the Auxiliary of the AAF in 1943 and they (the new Air Force, not the Army Air Force) lacked the legal authority to lead the CAP and provide it with resources such as aircraft and liaison personnel.

QED

[lost_shaman]

Well, as usual, Seth is being both intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive. He quotes from an outdated copy (21 DECEMBER 2000) of Air Force Instruction 10-2701 he got from here and did not provide a link for…

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/sudoc/image_3 ... 0-2701.pdf

The current version (29 JULY 2005, Incorporating Change 1, 29 September 2006) is here and does not contain the part he quoted…

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf

However, the version he quoted from says this in the paragraph immediately before the one he quoted and conveniently omitted…

Again, as usual, I see I'm being personally attacked on the open forum. IMO, it's distasteful and Tom knows that I won't personally attack him back with Ad Hom's and name calling. I guess this is supposed to be some advantage but I don't think so.

For the record, Tom actually got the link FROM ME in an E-mail over a month ago on Oct. 4, 2009 and I have it saved in my Sent folder to prove it. Not only that but in that E-mail I quoted the same paragraph and underlined the exact same two sentences as my emphasis, in-fact it appears Tom just copy and pasted FROM MY E-MAIL to him! How this makes me "intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive" is beyond me. Here below is exactly what I quoted to Tom from the link in my E-mail on Oct. 4, 2009 with underline emphasis mine and commentary between paragraphs mine.

Partial quote from my E-mail to Tom (AD) on Oct. 4, 2009.

Under its original federal charter of July 1, 1946 (Pub. L. 79-476) the CAP became a private nonprofit corporation that could sue and be sued, acquire and hold property, accept gifts, legacies and devises, and to do all acts and things necessary and proper to carry into effect the objects and purposes of the corporation. Its financial transactions and operations were not subject to annual scrutiny by congress nor was it required to be audited annually by the General Accounting Office as would be expected were it under the command of the AAF. Nor are it's volunteer members subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It was only required to report annually to congress it's proceedings and activities during the preceding year just as most other private corporations granted federal charters. Likewise the original law probably gave the Commanding General AAF the authority to appoint the National Commander or other Board of Governors as other federally chartered nonprofit corporations also have Government appointees on their respective Boards and as the law amended in 1948 now states.

See the CAP History as laid out here below in AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-2701
21 DECEMBER 2000 (underline emphasis mine)

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/sudoc/image_3 ... 0-2701.pdf

1.1.2. Service in World War II. Upon entry of the United States into World War II, the mission of CAP expanded, with CAP performing a wide variety of duties including coastal patrol for submarine activity, ships and personnel in distress, target towing for the Armed Forces, and courier flights for essential personnel and war materials. By Executive Order, CAP was transferred on 29 April 1943 from the Office of Civilian Defense to the Department of War. On 4 May 1943, CAP was placed under the control of the Army Air Forces. During this period CAP was referred to as an auxiliary of the Army Air Force.

1.1.3. Congressional Charter as a Non-Profit Corporation. At the end of the war, the state of national emergency that gave the legal authority for the existence of CAP was terminated. The Army Air Force continued to provide limited assistance to CAP, including leadership by Army Air Force personnel. At the urging of the senior leaders of the Army Air Force and prominent members of the aviation community, CAP was chartered by act of Congress on 1 July 1946 as a non-profit corporation to enable CAP to continue to provide its services to the armed forces and the Nation.


1.1.4. Establishment as the Auxiliary of the Air Force. Although Congress chartered CAP as a non-profit corporation, the Air Force lacked the legal basis to provide CAP with assistance, advice, and oversight and to authorize the Air Force to use the services of CAP. With the strong backing of the Secretary of the Air Force and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Congress designated CAP as the Auxiliary of the Air Force on 26 May 1948. This act authorized the Secretary of the Air Force to accept and utilize the services of CAP in the fulfillment of the non-combat missions of the Air Force.


Clearly it would be wrong to say that the CAP was under the command of the AAF after the issuance of federal charter on July 1, 1946. Even today the CAP as a federally chartered nonprofit corporation is not considered to be under the command of the USAF except when engaged in operations assigned to it by the Secretary of the USAF as the USAF Auxiliary.

1.2.2. CAP Corporation Relationship to the Federal Government. Although chartered as a non-profit corporation by Congress, CAP is neither a government entity nor a federal corporation. The Air Force or other elements of the government do not control the corporate activities of CAP.



2.2. Limit to Air Force Authority and Control. The Air Force has no authority over CAP as it pertains to its operation as a civilian, volunteer, non-profit corporation. The Air Force does have authority over those aspects of CAP which relate to its performance of the non-combat missions of the Air Force that are assigned to CAP by the Secretary of the Air Force. The Secretary of the Air Force may delegate this authority as appropriate.



Clearly the limited authority and command the USAF does have regarding the CAP did not legally exist (for the AAF) after July 1, 1946 or legally exist until May 26, 1948.

There you have it Folks, according to Tom I am "intellectually dishonest" because I didn't add the link to my post above even though I said exactly where the quote came from and Tom is actually quoting me from an E-mail I sent to him! Not only that but I'm "deliberately deceptive" because I didn't quote enough of the reference (that makes my case not his) when in-fact I quoted exactly that to Tom and more! If anything Tom "conveniently omitted" the fact all this was spelled out for him via E-mail by me.

So, in summary, Seth has been mistakenly arguing that the CAP was not a part of the AAF or AF between 1946 and 1948 because it was incorporated by Congress in 1946 when in reality it was incorporated in order for it to continue to be part of the AAF in 1946. Furthermore, it was designated as the Auxiliary of the AF by Congress in 1948 in order for it to continue to be part of the newly formed AF since it had previously been designated by the President as the Auxiliary of the AAF in 1943 and they (the new Air Force, not the Army Air Force) lacked the legal authority to lead the CAP and provide it with resources such as aircraft and liaison personnel.

Tom clearly doesn't understand that the act of congress on July 1, 1946 that incorporated CAP only changed Title 36 of the U.S. Code subtitle B "Patriotic Organizations" to include the Civil Air Patrol as a federally chartered corporation with the stated purposes being 1) to encourage private citizens in the voluntary contribution of their efforts and services for the public welfare, 2) development of aviation and maintenance of air supremacy through the education and training of its senior and cadet members, 3) the fostering of civil aviation in local communities and the ultimate providing of an organization of private citizens with adequate facilities to assist in meeting local and national emergencies.

This act of congress on July 1, 1946 that incorporated CAP did not amend or change Title 10 of the U.S. Code "Armed Forces". The act of congress on May 26, 1948 did alter Title 10 of the U.S. Code "Armed Forces" Subtitle D - Air Force to include CAP as the "volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force" and amended Title 36 to reflect these changes.

As far as I'm concerned attacking me personally as Tom is known to do does not change the history or the facts.

l_s

[Access Denied]

How this makes me "intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive" is beyond me.

It’s because, once again, you have failed to share important information that damages your claim with our readership. They shouldn’t have to doublecheck your sources (and in this case, have to search for an obscure outdated one) to see if they’re actually getting the whole story…

(although I would encourage them to do so, with anything I post too)

[astrophotographer]

Not true at all. The answer is simple the Wiki reference just failed to mention that the 428th AAF BU was renamed 428th AF BU after the creation of the USAF. It was not an Army unit operating out of Kirtland it was an USAF unit.

The first link indicates the name changed between 1946 and 1976. The second link is a memo from February 1948. They don't show when the unit changed to an AF unit.

There is no guessing to it as an officer falling under the command of the Commanding General, AAF, Major Phillips like all other officers was transferred over to the USAF by transfer order No. 1 signed by SECDEF Forrestal on Sept. 26, 1947.

I have my doubts concerning this. I was inquiring if you had his records. I guess not.

Again see above. This unit was transferred along with most other units by transfer order no. 1. Saying the transfer of such units did not occur until after November 1947 is just wrong. I've also provided a link to a primary source document above where members of this unit were listed as USAF before 1949. That proves your interpretation of the Wiki reference is flawed.

Your sources are not clear when this name change occurred. Also, my point is why did it take so long to change the names of the bases? They all seem to have changed their names from Army Air Field to USAFB in January 1948.

Finally, I am not particularly married to this photograph being from the Nov meteorite hunt. It may or may not be. Howver, I find it hard to believe the photograph came form a meteorite hunt in July 1947. I would be more apt to sugget this came from the July 1947 CAP tour of the state. I also question if it was indeed in July 1947 simply because the gear they are wearing indicates some other time frame.

[lost_shaman]

How this makes me "intellectually dishonest and deliberately deceptive" is beyond me.

It’s because, once again, you have failed to share important information that damages your claim with our readership. They shouldn’t have to doublecheck your sources (and in this case, have to search for an obscure outdated one) to see if they’re actually getting the whole story…

(although I would encourage them to do so, with anything I post too)

First, I didn't fail to share information that damages anything I've posted (except possibly in Tom's imagination). Second, if you are worried about RU readership being mislead then I'd suggest you stop misleading them as you did in your Nov. 7th post quoted below.

The current version (29 JULY 2005, Incorporating Change 1, 29 September 2006) is here and does not contain the part he quoted…

http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI10-2701.pdf

It doesn't matter what version you look at; both versions have the CAP history I quoted from verbatum. Saying its not there in the (2005) version is just a lame attempt to make me look bad either because Tom is misleading the members of RU or he simply can't find the "History of the Civil Air Patrol" chapter in the PDF. (Hint it's listed as "History of the Civil Air Patrol" on the Index page.)