Life between Lives (Surviving Death)

A spiritual perspective on phenomenon

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:01 pm

Shadow Watcher wrote:First off, welcome!
Below are some starters. I'd recommend them as a good jumping off point.

Journey of Souls:
http://www.spiritualregression.org/journeyreview.html
Destiny of Souls:
http://www.spiritualregression.org/destinyreview.html
Dr. Ian Stevenson:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Claimed-Memories-of ... dZViewItem

If you decide to read them, please come back and discuss it further.


...to which i'd add: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts04.html, ken ring.

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Postby phantom » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:38 pm

i have a very much vested interest in reincarnation, my father being buddhist and heavily devoted to his belief i have managed to learn as much a son can learn from a father about religion. my spin off on reincarnation and buddhism is that, doesnt that take the fun out of living if all you live for is death? doing good so you will have a happy afterlife? i put that to my dad and he laughed. ofcourse theres alot more to it than that but in a cynical perspective thats what you get. reincarnation would explain certain personality traits of certain people you know, also why some people get along better than others and perhaps why you just have a good or hateful feeling toward someone for no apparent reason. maybe thats a bit extreme but you get the picture. some familiarities with people that you meet go well beyond coincidence.

thanks for listening

P
was i meant 2 b?
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Postby Serpentime » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:42 am

phantom wrote:...my spin off on reincarnation and buddhism is that, doesnt that take the fun out of living if all you live for is death? doing good so you will have a happy afterlife?


Hi Phantom,

Welcome to the Forum. :)

This is only my opinion, but I've come to think that living-for-Death takes most of the Meaning out of Life, also.

Creator imbued Life with a great desire (instinct?) to Live; hence the desire of Death appears to be "undesirable", perhaps?


But that's just my interpretation. ;)


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Re: Life between Lives (Surviving Death)

Postby Nemo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:46 pm

Does living for death take all of the fun out of living?
I would say yes.

Speculating that if there even is such a thing as reincarnation or the survival of consciousness after physical death; death does occur. You will die and all of your friends and relatives will die. This life does end and it will never occur again. These things are true even if there is some form of survival, therefore each life should be lived as if it is the only one. In a sense it is no matter what else could be true and it will never happen again. So, no matter what, people should live for life and not the end of it. Besides, an eternity playing the harp, or whatever else has been speculated sounds completely boring and like non-existence. The great likelyhood, and what common sense reveals, is that this is your one and only life which should emphasize the point even more. See how much time you've already spent? It makes no sense whatsoever to live for death. :shock:
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Re: Life between Lives (Surviving Death)

Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:25 am

Well said Nemo. I do sometimes wonder about what happens after we die, but ultimately it doesn't really matter. I wasn't here for the first thirty odd billion years of our Universal life, and I won't be here for the last thirty odd. It's what happens in between that is important.
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Re: Life between Lives (Surviving Death)

Postby Nemo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:21 am

Oddly enough, I actually find the consistency and the meaningfullness of the experiences by Near Death experiencers and After Death Communication experiencers to be very compelling. On the one hand is common sense, evolution, objective science in several fields, etc. which tell a fairly complete (but not complete) story of how we are physical beings who live and die and that would probably be it. On the other hand, there are amazing, subjective experiences that people have which I do not dismiss out of hand. While science cannot deal well with subjective experience and will always reject it, I think that they have some value. Types of experience which would seem to be verified but which can probably never be simulated, repeated, measured, or weighed in a laboratory would include: 1) NDE's where the person was unconscious and even effectively brain dead (the woman who was cooled to the point of hypothermiafor surgery) and who could repeat what doctor's said, what tolls and procedures they used, etc. 2) People who see a person and communicate with them at a remote location at their moment of death. The next morning they get a call reporting that this person had died, often at the time, of the experience and unexpectedly. 3) People who have after death communications with relatives and who find out, a day or so later, that their brother or sister also had the identical dream with the same relative on that same night. This actually happened to my wife and her sister. I assume that it is possible that such things could be arranged so that the experiencers will talk and that way it will be confirmed in their minds, what science and the objective world think, doesn't matter. There are other types of experience which have been recorded. They are considered to be anecdotal and can never be duplicated on any schedule and so are discounted. To us as human beings though, who experience subjective consciousness, this type of experience, if well documented should still have signifigance and may tell us something about our lives.

We do not really understand what consciousness is, how it is "generated", or where it "comes from". My private hunch is that these experiences may indeed indicate that we do not properly understand the Universe or our place in it but that is just a hunch. I would never bet my or anybody elses life on it and this life is of ultimate importance anyway based on what I said above.

Another way to view it is when you consider the extreme statistical likleyhood that you, as an individual, should not exist (the way human reproduction works), and not certainly as a conscious being who can actually hope to understand and experience some of the Universe. That is practically a "miracle" to me and yet another reason to treat this life, even if it were not the only one you might ever experience, infinitely important to have right here and now. :?
Last edited by Nemo on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Life between Lives (Surviving Death)

Postby Nemo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:17 am

Here are some very interesting stories related to life after death that I have read of in the past. These stand out to me. If these things actually happened and were documented, I wonder how they could be explained away. I also assume that they would have had a profound impact on the outlook of the experiencers.

1) I think this first one was in a Dr. Melvin Morse book, perhaps "Closer To The Light". A man was on vacation preparing to fo fishing. He was standing on a dock, looked back and saw someone walking out of the trees and along the shore of the lake. He walked onto the dock and right up to the fisherman. He realized that this was his brother or brother in law. They had a brief conversation and the guy turned around and walked right back into the woods. The brother in law was actually deceased. I forget if that was known at the time.
2) In another book I found a story in which a woman had had an NDE 4 years before Dr. Raymond Moody's first book on the subject was published. During the experience she was shown a photograph of Moody and given his name. She was told that in the future she must contact him and tell him of her experience. I believe that Moody's family later moved to a new neighborhood and at this link: http://pureinsight.org/node/1400 there is a description of what happened........."In another case, a woman was shown the picture and name of Dr. Moody when she had a NDE. She was told when the time is ready she will tell Dr. Moody her experience. It was 1971 and Dr. Moody's book was not yet published. At that time the name and picture of Dr. Moody were meaningless for this women, but four years later Dr. Moody's family moved to the street where the woman lived. On Halloween eve that year, Dr. Moody's son went to the woman's home for trick or treating. When she learned the name of child, she told the child that she wanted to talk to his father."
I don't rememberoff the top of my head if this was in a Moody book, a Kenneth Ring book, The Holographic Universe, or if Dr. Moody has confirmed it.
3) There was a story about a young girl who was dying. Her family was with her in the hospital. She eventually passed
away, was pronounced dead by the doctor and they stayed there for some time collecting their thoughts, etc. After something like 30 or 45 minutes she came to and asked for something to write with. She wrote a poem with very beautiful and evocative imagery that seemed to be about a life she had experienced beyond this one. With that she died, for keeps this time. What an amazing experience.
4) In her book "On Life After Death" Elisabeth Kubler Ross wrote that she received a visit from a deceased patient in the hospital where she worked. The woman came out of an elevator walked around a someone that Ross was talking to and asked if they could talk in her office. They went there, all he while Ross looking over and wondering if she was seeing what she thought she was seeing. I found this description in a review at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Life-after-Death- ... 0890876533

"One of the more compelling stories Kubler-Ross conveys was the visitation from an old, deceased patient. The doctor was at a difficult time in her career, and she wanted to resign from her work with the dying. One day after delivering a seminar on the subject, she met her boss to resign when in the open elevator stood an old patient, Mrs. Schwartz. This individual was the first patient that Dr. Kubler-Ross interviewed for her studies on NDE, and had recently died. Mrs. Schwartz told her that she had "come back" for two reasons, first to thank the doctor for her help and also to persuade her to continue her work with the dying. As a scientist, Dr. Kubler-Ross did not want to believe she was speaking with a dead patient, and to prove to herself that this experience was indeed happening, the doctor put across to Mrs. Schwartz to write her a note, stating her request. Astonishingly, Dr. Kubler-Ross has this note in her possession to this day, and kept her promise to continue her work with the dying. As a scientist, writing about this experience and speaking about it to hundreds of people and colleagues, must have taken considerable courage. "
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Re: Life between Lives (Surviving Death)

Postby Nemo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:46 am

Just some random comments on the topic.

Yes, Ian Stevenson would be the place to go to review studies that are suggestive of reincarnation. He did a rather thorough job investigating I suppose hundreds of these cases about as scientifically as possible. You could also look into some critiques of his reports. You'd have to try to weed out coaching by adults, the information having been gained in some other way, cases so old the facts could have been embellished. That could happen with new cases too, especially with parents who believe in reincarnation and are rewording for themselves what the children actually said. Still, they are suggestive of reincarnation.

If there is anything to near death experiences and after death communications as there would seem to be with the information involved, the timing of events, the consistency of the general story, etc, then reincarnation would also make sense. Most NDA's seem to tell a common, overall story. They seem to indicate an established system of events that occurs and types of beings that are encountered. If any survival of bodily death is about some sort of spiritual evolution then I would say that some system of reincarnation would also be required. Looking around, I can't see that the average person is particularly evolved or improved after only one incarnation so many would be required. I mean really, just look around!

One big problem, of course, is how consciousness or a mind could exist separate from the physical brain. It is either something that exists separate from the physical body in the first place or the job of the brain is to connect to non-local space or.......There isn't really any theory for this but on the other hand we pretty much understand the body and brain but cannot say how it would produce subjective consciousness either. To the shame of psychology (I think), the study of consciousness has been seen as off limits and viewed as crackpot territory for most of this century.

The book "Many Lives, Many Masters" is an interesting book about reincarnation but there are some factual problems with at least some of the stories. In one, the patient says that she was a WWII Luftwaffe Officer and his "chopper" crashed. They say it was a fixed wing craft, I believe, but also make it clear that it was a helicopter. I don't think that there were any operational helicopters in any military at that time. In this case she seems to have formed her ideas of WWII based on the Vietnam War or maybe the Korean War and has a loose knowledge of history. The author also does not catch this as being an impossibility.
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