Does God exist?

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Re: Does God exist?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu May 06, 2010 3:38 pm

Rintendo wrote:the philosophers of old with their pupils gathered around hanging upon their every word


This is what Toon dreams of... and not even secretly. :wink:
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby gunter » Thu May 06, 2010 5:06 pm

ya can't teach an old philosophy teacher new tricks. :lol:
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby gunter » Thu May 06, 2010 5:20 pm

Rintendo wrote:
gunter wrote:No-one ever said that clarity was easy. Time to define terms. What then is 'emotion' in your estimation?


Connection.
OK. I can understand that. As Afterburn says in his 20 point Concordance- Mood is the spring from which Creation flows. And Mood itself is the matrix of all emotion. But... we can not, just for that reason, analyze that mood by use of its qualities. Analysis requires dispassionate Reason first of all. Where Reason leaves of we're left at bounds of the Absurd and can proceed no further in parsing rational truth. That's the point when we leave the world of Philosophy and enter the vapors of Metaphysics where poetry and speculation- and, yes- emotion rule the day. Bracket one when considering the other or the result is bemused confusion. That's all I'm sayin'.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Rintendo » Fri May 07, 2010 2:35 am

There is a reason why universities parse out: classics, philosophy, and religion into separate departments. You might as easily remove emotion as an element in the discovery of G-D as you would in deciding upon whom to marry. You can do it but it takes all the zing out of it.

Moreover, some might argue that if G-D is indeed love then the only path by which to discover G-D is like to like.

You can do the dance of reason and philosophy as an application to understanding such a being if it exists, but it is likewise possible that "it" may not operate on those terms therefore to use them as a methodology is like speaking Russian to the Chinese. Nice sounding but not applicable.

Anyway, cheers!
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri May 07, 2010 3:19 pm

Well, IF God exists, I guess even God makes mistakes... at least that would be how Chaz Bono feels:

It's official: Chaz Bono gets legal name (and gender) change

"It's hard for me to articulate how this feels -- when you've lived your whole life in a body and having everybody relate to you as something you don't feel," Bono, 41,told PEOPLE back in December. "When that finally gets righted, it's just amazing. I finally get to live my life the way I've always wanted to."


Good for her....errrr.....him! :)
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Chorlton » Fri May 07, 2010 3:30 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Well, IF God exists, I guess even God makes mistakes... at least that would be how Chaz Bono feels:

It's official: Chaz Bono gets legal name (and gender) change

"It's hard for me to articulate how this feels -- when you've lived your whole life in a body and having everybody relate to you as something you don't feel," Bono, 41,told PEOPLE back in December. "When that finally gets righted, it's just amazing. I finally get to live my life the way I've always wanted to."


Good for her....errrr.....him! :)
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby gunter » Fri May 07, 2010 3:33 pm

Moreover, some might argue that if G-D is indeed love then the only path by which to discover G-D is like to like.
But if god is love (good) and god is all- then where does hate (evil) come from? If we want to avoid the Christian dualism between good and evil we have to place god above it or beyond it- or subsumptive of it. It's not necessary to shuck dualism. If it's satisfying to you then go with it. But in dialectical process reality is understood not in thesis or antithesis but rather in synthesis, i.e. unity. On the other hand I don't really care what you choose to believe. Like I said- if you're happy with it stay with it.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby egg » Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm

gunter wrote:But if god is love (good) and god is all- then where does hate (evil) come from?

Assuming there is a God, either God isn't "good" (or, only good) or God is not alone. Meaning our creator has a rival, and not some angelic upstart, either. A real one.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby ryguy » Fri May 07, 2010 4:01 pm

egg wrote:
gunter wrote:But if god is love (good) and god is all- then where does hate (evil) come from?

Assuming there is a God, either God isn't "good" (or, only good) or God is not alone. Meaning our creator has a rival, and not some angelic upstart, either. A real one.


Yes - you're onto something. In fact, if you accept that there is a God, and that he created everything that exists, then you would certainly have to accept that he created Satan, the devil, demons, evil, yang, bad stuff (whatever you choose to call it)....strange concept isn't it?

If you were the creator of everything, why would you create "evil"...? Any ideas?

Actually - rereading the posts above, Gunter's last post is pretty interesting!
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Chorlton » Fri May 07, 2010 4:05 pm

Because according to the creation of the world

Once upon a time there was nothing.......Which exploded

I find that a bit more believable than someone somewhere creating beetles and butterflies and slugs and apples and and and
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri May 07, 2010 4:12 pm

ryguy wrote:If you were the creator of everything, why would you create "evil"...? Any ideas?


Why do children play "cowboys and indians" (our childhood) or "humans and space aliens" (this generation), or any other number of "good vs. evil" games? One could claim this comes from their learning about the world around them...some might say "polluted by human ideas." But others might say that all existence (which would include existence at the level of any God) is an eternal struggle between extremes.

You cannot define light without simultaneously defining dark.

Then again, there is the other idea expressed by some of us earlier: GOOD and EVIL simply flow, naturally, out of statements of intention. I've made this claim before in other threads long ago: We are living in a time where we will transition from the Age of Information to the Age of Intention.

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Re: Does God exist?

Postby egg » Fri May 07, 2010 4:25 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
ryguy wrote:others might say that all existence (which would include existence at the level of any God) is an eternal struggle between extremes.

You cannot define light without simultaneously defining dark.

Then again, there is the other idea expressed by some of us earlier: GOOD and EVIL simply flow, naturally, out of statements of intention. I've made this claim before in other threads long ago: We are living in a time where we will transition from the Age of Information to the Age of Intention.

Ray


If you believe in God then, existence is a struggle between extremes and you cannot define light without defining dark because God set it up that way.
If there is a God, perhaps It doesn't see things in Good or Evil, Light or Dark. Maybe, there is no distinction between "opposites" for God. Perhaps, that is only the human perception of existence.
When things don't affect you, because you're too powerful to be affected by them and not at their mercy, perhaps you don't see things as good and evil. If animals (Aside from humans) thought in terms of good and evil, the lion would be evil by the standards of the antelope, the anteater would be evil to the ant. We do not look at the lion as evil, and certainly not the anteater.
Perhaps, our distinction between good and evil mean nothing to God as there is a bigger distinction between God and man than there is between man and anteater.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby gunter » Fri May 07, 2010 4:33 pm

The dualism is categorical- and therefore false. In other words it's an artifact of consciousness. Where does it begin? Certainly with the original human perception of I and Not I. Even the Cartesian principle falls pray to this initial category. 'I think so I am.' The essential dualism is expressed in the 'I' and the 'think' and is further compounded in the 'I' and the 'am.' That's apparent in the English and the French expressions of his premise but less so in the Latin. Cogito is one word as is Sum- which I have always felt was his reason for using the Latin proposition, Cogito ergo Sum. Nonetheless it is still tautological and assumes an essential dualism. No way around it- except perhaps by an appeal to meditation. That was the Buddha's solution.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby egg » Fri May 07, 2010 4:40 pm

Absolutely, that which I don't like and which doesn't like me is evil. My choice. My decision. My Truth. It is not written in the stars. While most of us humans have some common ground to work with, the truth is what is evil to someone one day is good the next or, at least, no longer evil.
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Re: Does God exist?

Postby Rintendo » Fri May 07, 2010 4:47 pm

gunter wrote:
Moreover, some might argue that if G-D is indeed love then the only path by which to discover G-D is like to like.
But if god is love (good) and god is all- then where does hate (evil) come from? If we want to avoid the Christian dualism between good and evil we have to place god above it or beyond it- or subsumptive of it. It's not necessary to shuck dualism. If it's satisfying to you then go with it. But in dialectical process reality is understood not in thesis or antithesis but rather in synthesis, i.e. unity. On the other hand I don't really care what you choose to believe. Like I said- if you're happy with it stay with it.


I did not define love as "good". Good and evil are illusory labels slapped upon actions as though it were a mathematical equation. Love is a feeling. Feelings cannot be described in the same way as actions, nor truly can actions be categorized as either "good" or "evil" unless one wants to be truly absurd.

You chose to impose a Christian (although it could also be considered Near Eastern as all Ancient Near Eastern faiths imposed it) dualism to my supposition that G-D may indeed be just "love". Hitler, someone that no doubt most would categorize as "evil" was very loving to his friends and pets. Love defies intentions, it is something that exists.

It is undefinable and ever expanding within ones "self". As soon as I define it for myself something will happen within my capacity and it changes.

The title of this thread was: does God exist. It wasn't "define" God, though we have tried to do that. From my experience with God, God is not "God" with human sentiments, labels and columns, nor structure. To my Catholic way of thinking this was quite a surprise as I took "Heavenly parent" seriously. Even those who try to define it philosophically do the same by imposing human terms upon it. What if it has no consciousness as we know it and is amoeba like and conscious action occurs only when some bit of cosmic blob escapes and forms into a human?

Even this idea that "we won't know until we're dead" is living up to a religious set of expectations. The idea that science can prove that God exists or does not exist still relies on the control factor coming from religious expectations of what G-D is. Using words like "motivations" still narrows the thoughts into something that humans can wrap into words--and therein lies the rub.

If you use philosophy, math or anything to define it other than a silent experience you are laying the groundwork for a religion--a set of guidances on how others should understand it.
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