Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

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Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:41 pm

New blog update today on Free Energy scams.

Please feel free to share your own view on the many "free energy" scams through the years, and your stance on zero point and geomagnetism in particular and whether there's any hope for those particular forces in real world energy technologies.
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby Nazi UFOs » Fri May 28, 2010 3:20 pm

I think even if there is such a thing as 'free energy' then it would be kept under lock and key by big business. It would bring an end to the oil empires and the combustion engine overnight.

According to here say, there are many individual engineers and inventors who have discovered zero point energy but are quickly silenced with financial reward or by whatever 'other' means necessary before they are able to go public with their discoveries. Whether this is true or not is another matter but I do find it strange that we still rely on oil in this day and age. We seem to be falling behind in this field.........maybe it is orchastrated???
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby Chorlton » Fri May 28, 2010 4:59 pm

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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby jbondo » Fri May 28, 2010 8:28 pm

Not zero point but IMO GM was going to drag it out as long as possible until they were forced into producing another electric car. If you haven't seen the Documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car", by all means give it a look. As much as it favors the pro electric point of view it's still fascinating how big auto manipulates consumers. If even half of what is in that Documentary is true then big auto is truly underhanded. I am of the opinion that big oil is a dictatorship that not only pulls the strings on big auto but the American/World consumer. We are just now seeing the infancy of breaking free from big oil. Unfortunately we are so entrenched in oil that if we don't do this very slowly the world economy would likely collapse.

Watch the Documentary here: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/who-kill ... ctric-car/

Regarding zero point wouldn't the sun qualify?
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby LCARS24 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:42 pm

About zero point, the thinking is that you can't create a material with lower energy to absorb from zero point. It's like thermodynamics. But that's not how it would be done, anyway. Regardless, if you were to devise a trick to take energy in from ZPR, the U.S. Patent Office would not want to grant you a basic patent. Basic patents are hard to get anyway, but they treat all so-called free-energy applications as scams. And even if you did bring in a convincing working model, complete with explanation for how it works, they still wouldn't grant a patent and wouldn't want to tell you the real reason, which is simply that humans couldn't be trusted with it. It would place too much power in the hands of those who would use it to commit violent acts. And even though they would know that if you did it others eventually would, they would feel obliged to buy the human race some time.

In the meantime, polywell fusion has gone through eight small prototypes and passed every test. The scientific argument against it has been disproved. Yet the sponsor (the U.S. Navy) has been stringing the lab along with funding of about $1 million a year with the promise that never comes of funding to build a full-sized prototype that could demonstrate overunity. That would be a roughly spherical device a minimim of 5 feet in diameter and with too low a power-to-weight ratio to raise security concerns. Such a prototype would cost about $200 million to build. All the data strongly suggest it would work, but no one knows for sure until that's done. But it's thought to have the potential to cut electricity cost by about 90%. The Navy scientists ordered extensive testing and have scrutinized the data to death and can see what's there, but it still looks like they won't give it full funding. The original inventor Dr. Robert Bussard died a few years ago and left two physicists on leave from Los Alamos in charge or the project, and they are continuing it on the shoestring budget from the Navy. Besides power generation, a polywell device, by its very nature, could also be configured as a fusion rocket, not for lifting payload into orbit, but for long-distance use in space. (The Wikipedia article doesn't cover all that very well but gives a basic overview.)
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby ryguy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:40 pm

Do you know who the other two scientists are and/or their contact details? Would love to talk with them about this Navy project...

Send me a PM or respond here, either works. Although if you respond here, our detractors will contact the scientists and tell them not to talk to us - so a PM would be better. :-)

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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby Access Denied » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:58 am

LCARS24 wrote:…if you were to devise a trick to take energy in from ZPR, the U.S. Patent Office would not want to grant you a basic patent.

Ridiculous, a former coworker of mine got one…

[that it’s “not even wrong” is beside the point]

United States Patent 5,590,031
System for converting electromagnetic radiation energy to electrical energy

A system is disclosed for converting high frequency zero point electromagnetic radiation energy to electrical energy. The system includes a pair of dielectric structures which are positioned proximal to each other and which receive incident zero point electromagnetic radiation. The volumetric sizes of the structures are selected so that they resonate at a frequency of the incident radiation. The volumetric sizes of the structures are also slightly different so that the secondary radiation emitted therefrom at resonance interfere with each other producing a beat frequency radiation which is at a much lower frequency than that of the incident radiation and which is amenable to conversion to electrical energy. An antenna receives the beat frequency radiation. The beat frequency radiation from the antenna is transmitted to a converter via a conductor or waveguide and converted to electrical energy having a desired voltage and waveform.

The existence of ZPE is not controversial however getting it for “free” is considered pseudoscience…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point ... udoscience

[not to mention unprofitable in terms of energy density]

LCARS24 wrote:Basic patents are hard to get anyway, but they treat all so-called free-energy applications as scams.

Without a working model they're certainly harder to get now and for good reason, it’s equivalent to proposing a perpetual motion machine which violates the first and/or second laws of thermodynamics and can therefore be considered impossible…

[until the laws of physics are rewritten… good luck with that]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents

Proposals for such inoperable machines have become so common that the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has made an official policy of refusing to grant patents for perpetual motion machines without a working model. The USPTO Manual of Patent Examining Practice states:

With the exception of cases involving perpetual motion, a model is not ordinarily required by the Office to demonstrate the operability of a device. If operability of a device is questioned, the applicant must establish it to the satisfaction of the examiner, but he or she may choose his or her own way of so doing.

And, further, that:

A rejection [of a patent application] on the ground of lack of utility includes the more specific grounds of inoperativeness, involving perpetual motion. A rejection under 35 U.S.C. 101 for lack of utility should not be based on grounds that the invention is frivolous, fraudulent or against public policy.

The filing of a patent application is a clerical task, and the USPTO won't refuse filings for perpetual motion machines; the application will be filed and then most probably rejected by the patent examiner, after he has done a formal examination. Even if a patent is granted, it doesn't mean that the invention actually works; it just means that the examiner thinks that it works, or that he couldn't figure out why it wouldn't work.

Sorry but TANSTAAFL…

LCARS24 wrote:And even if you did bring in a convincing working model, complete with explanation for how it works, they still wouldn't grant a patent and wouldn't want to tell you the real reason, which is simply that humans couldn't be trusted with it.

See above. What evidence do you have to support this naïve conspiracy “theory”?

LCARS24 wrote:It would place too much power in the hands of those who would use it to commit violent acts. And even though they would know that if you did it others eventually would, they would feel obliged to buy the human race some time.

Again ridiculous, any technology with national security implications would simply be controlled like nuclear power and nuclear weapons are, not suppressed or not used for the benefit of mankind. Rest assured those who stand to profit from it the most will make damn sure of that lol…

ryguy wrote:Do you know who the other two scientists are and/or their contact details? Would love to talk with them about this Navy project...

Contact Dr. Jaeyoung Park…

http://www.emc2fusion.org/

See also the Wikipedia page for the latest news…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell

Said Dr. Park in an interview with Alan Boyle at MSNBC…

Cosmic Log - Fusion goes forward from the fringe
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... the-fringe

Don't expect weekly updates about EMC2's progress. "Currently all our funding comes from the Navy," Park said. "That's our customer. Our customer desired that we keep most of our progress confidential. ... They're somewhat concerned about making too much hype without delivering an actual product."

But if WB-8 and the follow-up studies are successful, the Navy won't stand in EMC2's way.

"Our understanding is they want us to be successful," Park said. "They want us to provide something for our sponsors. They also want us to do well commercially as well, as long as we remain US-owned and control the technology."

By the way, a sooper secret source (someone I know who works nearby lol) reports the garage door at EMC2’s facility is sometimes open with the machine running… ;)


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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby ryguy » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:16 pm

Access Denied wrote:
LCARS24 wrote:…if you were to devise a trick to take energy in from ZPR, the U.S. Patent Office would not want to grant you a basic patent.

Ridiculous, a former coworker of mine got one…


I agree...having a patent doesn't mean the idea is viable, only that you've protected the idea if it is...lol.


By the way, a sooper secret source (someone I know who works nearby lol) reports the garage door at EMC2’s facility is sometimes open with the machine running… ;)

ETA: Clarity.


OK, enough said. I think you've provided enough insight into the matter to determine it isn't worth further exploration. :-)
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby LCARS24 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:59 am

To clarify, if you invent a better wind turbine or waterwheel or even an exotic overunity device that takes in a small amount of energy from the environment in relation to bulk of the equipment, fine. We have the adage "Power generators use slow fuel; weapons use fast fuel." If you come up with something that has the potential to be miniaturized and produce energy quickly and powerfully enough to be easily weaponized and present a danger to public safety (and the patent examinier understands what you've got and that potential), do you really believe the government is going to allow that to be patented and/or marketed without restriction? Suppose you figured out how to unravel protons without using antiprotons and your method might lead to creating a device the size of a coin capable of making a 1-megaton explosion. Can that just casually be allowed?
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:17 am

LCARS24 wrote:...do you really believe the government is going to allow that to be patented and/or marketed without restriction?

Are you really asking a question that’s already been answered?

If your mouse has a scroll wheel I suggest you use it to scroll up and read my last post. After your realize your mistake you can apologize.

A clue by four…

Filing A Patent Application On A National Security Classified Invention Disclosure
(Internal DOE Legal Guidance)
http://www.gc.energy.gov/documents/Fili ... _Appln.pdf

[liberal snippage]

Reasons For Filing A Patent Application On A Classified Disclosure

The reasons for filing a patent application on a national security classified invention disclosure are similar to those for filing on an unclassified invention disclosure. They are summarized as follows:

1. Actual or potential commercial use of the invention

Classified technologies can be commercially licensed. The unclassified product of a classified process may be sold commercially or used by the Government without revealing the classified process.

2. Defensive Purposes

A patent application establishes that the Government did not abandon, suppress or conceal the invention, 35 U.S.C. 102(g).

3. The advancement of science and technology

A patent application memorializes a pioneering invention and the inventor. A patent application is one of the few ways to document the progress of science and technology in historically classified technologies.

Examination of a Classified Patent Application

Allowed classified applications for which there is no civilian use, such as those relating to nuclear weapons and naval nuclear reactors, are not often declassified. In contrast, classified applications for inventions that have utility in the civilian marketplace or for which the technology has entered the public domain may be declassified. Commercial need and public knowledge of the technology are valid reasons for declassification.

Next time RTFM first...

MPEP > Appendix R Patent Rules > Part 5 - Secrecy Of Certain Inventions And Licenses To Export And File Applications In Foreign Countries > §5.2 Secrecy order

(a) When notified by the chief officer of a defense agency that publication or disclosure of the invention by the granting of a patent would be detrimental to the national security, an order that the invention be kept secret will be issued by the Commissioner for Patents.

(b) Any request for compensation as provided in 35 U.S.C. 183 must not be made to the Patent and Trademark Office, but directly to the department or agency which caused the secrecy order to be issued.

Want to know how to tell anybody who claims their magical “free energy” (or reverse engineered alien spaceship) patent was rejected, suppressed or concealed because it works (and my favorite, “big oil” is in on it) is full of it?

They’re not rich… :roll:

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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby LCARS24 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:24 am

Oh, thanks for the kind words and assurances of safety and fairness.
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:45 am

LCARS24 wrote:Oh, thanks for the kind words and assurances of safety and fairness.

Well, I’m sorry if there’s been some kind of misunderstanding and I was a bit too harsh but from my point of view you completely ignored my post that was intended to try and help you understand you’ve been sold a bunch of BS…

“…any technology with national security implications would simply be controlled like nuclear power and nuclear weapons are…”

How you got this from that I don’t understand…

“Can that just casually be allowed?”

Perhaps you could explain what I missed?
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Re: Free Energy - Is it Even Possible?

Postby LCARS24 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:12 am

I don't claim to know how a ZP generator would work, but if it's nothing more than two concentric races of roller-bearing neodymium magnets, a Tesla coil or microwave laser, and a capacitor (plus the obvious support parts) with rotation of each race and voltage following a specific formula, adjustable to desired speed of energy intake, at low-speed intake it could perhaps power an automobile but at high speed could be a weapon of mass destruction, either way built with widely available materials, making it impossible to regulate. The various guys at Skunk Works who have made extraordinary claims, which they seem to imply include something like that, are probably just spewing disinformation, but if a black project there or at Westinghouse, GE, etc. has done it yet we don't get it, the only reasonable justification would be national and perhaps world security--keeping it out of the hands of terrorists, serial killers, jealous husbands, and especially Bart Simpson. Regardless, if all it takes is some alternate theory, understanding the math of same, a bit of engineering, and mundane parts, maybe the only way to regulate it is for people to not know it can be done, because if those with the skills and interest know it can be done, they'll figure it out or perhaps get it by trial and error or perhaps blow themselves up trying. When Tesla was in Colorado Springs, he blacked out the whole city and damaged the generators at the local power plant just by trying to send a radio signal to Paris. With ZPE, if it can be done, there might be some danger of large-scale accidents in the development stage, especially in the hands of amateurs.


Aside from all the pie-in-the sky claims going around, here are a couple interesting things about virtual particles;
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ticles-rea
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... -real.html
This one has to do with work on reverse Casimir effect at Harvard, considered important in the field of nanotech:
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090107/ ... 009.4.html
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