Dark Matters Radio-June 23rd

[Chorlton]

Wrong, Roswell was a non-event. The Roswell Myth was made of whole cloth 30 years later.

But there is the point I have lazily been trying to make for the last few weeks. It really doesnt matter how many times you can totally dissprove a Hoax, there will always be sufficient people who wont take a blind bit of notice, because they WANT to believe and will cling to anything that supports their crackpot ideas.

Take John Lear as a prime example. I totally dissproved his rubbish about the Apollo 11 landing being a hoax, but he still continues to promote it and he still has his believers. His claims about knowing a cure for Aids?. I totally dissproved his ridiculous claim that the cure was from a very rare fungus or something only available in China and ripped his timeline for it being created by some nitwit in the USA. But there are still people who will cling to his insane ideas. In the UK, Barry King and his dopey DUMB base under Peasmore, with 'Greys' killing and using children for experiments. There are simply loads and loads of Hoaxes which have been well poiinted out to people yet the sheeple will still blindly follow along.
Its the same with this latest thing with the Pickerings or whoever and the alleged Navy man. You can run yourself rigid chasing it and 100% prove it is rubbish. But you know what?, the majority of believers simply wont care, because they are convinced, and thats all that matters to them. They will call it 'Disinfo' and a 'conspiracy'. That does not denigrate whatsoever the work done to expose the hoax. But in my opinion, nowadays one should simply expose a Hoax, document it and leave it. Running yourself ragged chasing and hounding the proponents is doing nothing, other than wasting money time and sleep.

[ryguy]

That does not denigrate whatsoever the work done to expose the hoax. But in my opinion, nowadays one should simply expose a Hoax, document it and leave it. Running yourself ragged chasing and hounding the proponents is doing nothing, other than wasting money time and sleep.

Well said Chorlton...very well said. Trusting in the power of the evidence and ignoring UFO cult believers is the only way to go. I didn't get involved in this field to convince those who are already infected with the "UFOs are Aliens" virus that they are wrong. I got involved to pursue evidence of what is real, publish it for those who are not yet infected (or only lightly infected), and let them make up their own minds based on reality and truth, not on myth and folklore.

Folks in the UFO Saucer Cults are a lost cause and they aren't worth the aggravation. I say let them drown, we have other people who are far more worthy of saving from infection than these folks.

And anyway - in time as our efforts are more successful, these other sites will become less and less relevant - eventually disappearing into history as yet one more relic of humanity's strange psychology through the ages.

-Ry

[gunter]

We ought not confuse authentic Ufology with New Age Ufology. Sauce A, Serpo, Drone memes and the like have nothing at all to do with Ufology. There are, among many excellent exponents of ETH, two investigators who stand head and shoulders above them all: Donald Keyhoe and Rich Dolan. Anyone who dismisses ETH betrays the fact they have not studied the works of either man. And I feel I speak for Don Ecker in this assessment as well.

[ryguy]

We ought not confuse authentic Ufology with New Age Ufology. Sauce A, Serpo, Drone memes and the like have nothing at all to do with Ufology. There are, among many excellent exponents of ETH, two investigators who stand head and shoulders above them all: Donald Keyhoe and Rich Dolan. Anyone who dismisses ETH betrays the fact they have not studied the works of either man. And I feel I speak for Don Ecker in this assessment as well.

Anyone who dismisses all other possibilities in favor of one hypothesis (ETH) betrays the fact that they have never studied any form of science, or at all understands the process of testing before concluding. You choose one hypothesis, I actually accept many possible answers. Who's the one who is more open minded?

By the way - in the show Ecker spoke for himself better than you ever could, when he said that he believes there is more of an interdimensional aspect to the phenomenon than any intergalactic aspects. I should also add that I doubt Don Keyhoe or Rich Dolan would appreciate you putting words in their mouths either. Personally I prefer reading Vallee, but that's only because he's the sort of "heretic among heretics" that I respect. He does not promote the ETH in any of his writings I might add. Nor does he draw many conclusions - only observations about the control system that makes up the phenomenon.

-Ry

[gunter]

OK. Here's Dolan speaking for himself

..the UFO phenomenon is the product of an artificial intelligence. Advanced machine intelligence, vastly outstripping our own, biological, intelligence.

http://keyholepublishing.com/whatarethey.html

[gunter]

Here's a quote of one review from Amazon:

"If we're lucky, at least one seminal work on UFOs is written each generation. UFOs and the National Security State is the book for this generation, one that comprehensively dissects what has happened in this complex and obfuscated field.... Everyone interested in this vital subject needs to add it to their library! ... with the possible exception of [Timothy Good's]Above Top Secret, there has not been another work that could even come close to this massive and fascinatingly detailed accounting of UFOs and the military-industrial complex. Dolan has performed a monumental service to the field with its publication.... Exhaustively footnoted, thoroughly indexed, this is the seminal work for this research generation. If there ever had been a 'must read, must have' book on the subject, UFOs and the National Security State is it. I promise you that once you've read it, you'll never view the subject of UFOs or the American military/intelligence establishment in the same light again." -Don Ecker, Research Director, UFO Magazine, (December/January 2001)" written by Don F. Ecker.

And on that Don and I are in agreement. And I might add that the bibliography alone is worth the price of the book. Buy it, steal it- but read it.

[ryguy]

I don't follow - are you equating artificial intelligence with extra-terrestrial intelligence, a.k.a. the "ETH"?

[gunter]

That was Rich's theory at the time (ca 2002.) My personal theory is that all intelligence is artificial- a construct of abstracted occasions. But that subject is for a different thread. The point being that regardless of the nature of the ET intelligence involved, UFOs are intelligently designed and guided imo and in the opinions of Rich Dolan and Don Keyhoe. It's worth noting that this was the same view held by General Twining and Admiral Roscoe Hellenkoetter, first director of the CIA, in the late 40s. Hellenkoetter was also a charter member of Major Keyhoe's UFO investigative organization- NICAP and is believed by some rather bright Ufologists (Ryan Woods and Stan Friedman among them) to also have been a member of the original MJ12.

[ryguy]

That was Rich's theory at the time (ca 2002.) My personal theory is that all intelligence is artificial- a construct of abstracted occasions. But that subject is for a different thread.

Maybe, but you're still ignoring the question - whether you believe the source of the intelligence (artificial or not) is from here on earth or from somewhere else. You have not proven that Dolan or Keyhoe surmised that the intelligence source is beings from another planet. It seems as though you're twisting what they've written to fit into that mold...

Dolan only says that he *thinks* it as a possibility, when he writes:

"What of the UFOs that people see? What of the alien beings? I think it most plausible that these are the products of advanced machine intelligence. Possibly of a similar order to the intelligence that we may soon achieve with our own machines. We cannot today conceive of the technology to take us to the stars. But what about a future machine of transcendent intelligence? Has machine intelligence from elsewhere already done so?

Judging from the long history of UFO sightings and reports, I think the answer is yes."

By the way I love the artificial intelligence/machine intelligence hypothesis, although Vallee has laid it out more clearly, in my opinion.

The point being that regardless of the nature of the ET intelligence involved, UFOs are intelligently designed and guided imo and in the opinions of Rich Dolan and Don Keyhoe.

Yes, and I agree with that 100% - although you have to remove ET and replace it with "non-human" to be accurate regarding what Dolan has written about the intelligence. He doesn't prematurely draw the conclusion you've drawn.

It's worth noting that this was the same view held by General Twining and Admiral Roscoe Hellenkoetter, first director of the CIA, in the late 40s.

Oh gawd please tell me you're not using MJ-12 documents as your source.

Hellenkoetter was also a charter member of Major Keyhoe's UFO investigative organization- NICAP and is believed by some rather bright Ufologists (Ryan Woods and Stan Friedman among them) to also have been a member of the original MJ12.

Check please!

[gunter]

whether you believe the source of the intelligence (artificial or not) is from here on earth or from somewhere else.

Somewhere else. I thought I'd made that quite clear.

[ryguy]

Anyone who assigns the MJ-12 myth or either of the Woods any level of credibility is an outright idiot in my book. Man - my respect for you tumbles by the hour.

[gunter]

Oh gawd please tell me you're not using MJ-12 documents as your source.

Where have I used the MJ-12 documents as a source for anything?

Oh and as for this-

Anyone who assigns the MJ-12 myth or either of the Woods any level of credibility is an outright idiot in my book.

Are you claiming that Ryan Woods and Stan Friedman are idiots then? Klassic.

[ryguy]

Oh gawd please tell me you're not using MJ-12 documents as your source.

Where have I used the MJ-12 documents as a source for anything?

You referenced your belief in "MJ-12", and your respect for Ryan Woods in the same post. It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.

Oh and as for this-

Anyone who assigns the MJ-12 myth or either of the Woods any level of credibility is an outright idiot in my book.

Are you claiming that Ryan Woods and Stan Friedman are idiots then? Klassic.

There's nothing to claim, it's blatantly obvious - one of them supports documents that are obviously fabricated hoaxes, and the other once spoke up in support of the Serpo story, and of course was a significant player in the Moore-Disinfo-Debacle. The fact that you even entertain them as serious researchers/ufologists is f'ing pathetic.

[Chorlton]

Why does Richard Dolan garner so much interest? Because he writes poncy books including a lot of psycho/technobabble?
To me he's just another passenger on the Gravy train.
Kachiiiiiing

[gunter]

Oh gawd please tell me you're not using MJ-12 documents as your source.

Where have I used the MJ-12 documents as a source for anything?

You referenced your belief in "MJ-12", and your respect for Ryan Woods in the same post. It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.

No- I referenced others' beliefs, not mine.

...is believed by some rather bright Ufologists (Ryan Woods and Stan Friedman among them) to also have been a member of the original MJ12.

Please read more carefully. Yes- I respect Ryan Woods and also Stan Friedman as serious researchers. But I've never used the MJ12 docs as a source for anything in this discussion. Does the mere mention of those documents automatically disqualify me as a serious student of the field and make me an idiot too? Again- Klassic reasoning.