Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

A spiritual perspective on phenomenon

Moderators: ryguy, chrLz, Zep Tepi

Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:55 am

well worth watching, to my mind compelling data

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljRKhZ81 ... r_embedded

and this

The Egyptian sun god Horus, who predated the Christ character by thousands of years, shares the following in common with Jesus:

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Seb is also known as "Geb": "As Horus the Elder he...was believed to be the son of Geb and Nut." Lewis Spence, Ancient Egyptian Myths and Legends, 84.
He was of royal descent.
At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
Horus walked on water.
His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was killed, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."
Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of the pharaoh Amenhetep (Horus), with Thoth announcing to the queen that she will conceive; with the god Amun impregnating the queen; and with the infant being attended by three "kings" bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis--the original "Madonna and Child


http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

The video at the top expands on the son/sun connection
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am


Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby ryguy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:14 pm

The fact that the prophecy existed before Christ isn't really a surprise to Christians...

Here's some elaboration:
---
http://www.aybqa.com/index.php?go=quester&qid=792

(I've highlighted the important points):

Let not your faith be challenged by Mithraism (the pagan worship of the god Mithra). Although there are similarities in the accounts of the Mithran legend and the true story of Christ, there's a good reason.

There are really three (3) points you need to consider in relation to the similarities between the cult of Mithras and the Christian faith.

1. Religious Plagiarism
The Mithran system of worship originated from the Zoroastrian religion, which had its center in the Persian regions. Now, keep in mind that when the Kingdom of Judah was conquered by the Babylonians, the Jews were exiled into Babylon. The Jews took their faith, and their sacred texts to Babylon with them.

Among those exiled was Daniel the prophet, Hananiah (Shadrach), Mishael (Meshach), Azariah (Abed-nego), and others. Now, Daniel was eventually honored as a wise man, and his God was hailed as the true God by royal decree (Dan. 2:47-48; 3:29-4:37). Even the Babylonian mystics became students of the Jewish texts.

Keep in mind that when Jesus was born, the wise men from the East who came to worship were actually from this region. Their cultural and mystic history explains how they came to know of Jesus' coming birth. They were students of the Jewish texts. Their forefathers had been introduced to it during the Jewish exile in Babylon, even during a time when the Jewish faith was hailed as a true religion in the Babylonian empire. They knew of the prophesied Messiah through their studies of the Hebrew Scriptures.

So then, it comes as no surprise that some of the similarities between the Mithran tale and the Lord Jesus were the very things prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.

It is a reality that the cult of Mithras predates Christianity. But, it does not predate the Hebrew texts that the Babylonian/Persian mystics actually studied. Christianity, then, does not borrow from Mithraism. To the contrary, Mithraism borrows from the prophesied Hebrews texts regarding the coming Messiah.

2. Roman Catholic Corruption
Some of the other similarities between Mithraism and Christianity can only be ascribed to the compromises and accomodations the Roman Catholic Church instituted during the early history of the the Church.

The early church never celebrated Jesus' birth. That's why we have no idea of when Jesus was born. If they celebrated His birth, we'd have a clear record of when it took place, and we don't.

The celebration of the nativity was a later addition to the Christian "calendar", and its date was chosen because that was the date of another very popular celebration--the pagan celebration of the birth of Mithras. Christianity turned their celebration of the birth of the sun god into a celebration of the birth of the Son of God. That's why December 25 was chosen.

So, in this sense, extrabiblical Christianity did borrow from Mithraism, and it SHOULD NOT HAVE... But, biblical Christianity (the only REAL type) says nothing about celebrating Jesus' birth, and His date of birth is nowhere indicated.

3. The Adversary's Scheme
It comes as no surprise that Satan, who was well aware of the prophecies regarding the coming Messiah would seek to pre-date his coming with myths that would eventually serve to discredit the truth of His coming. He is a counterfeit, a copy-cat, and in this case, because the prophecies had already been recorded, he had a perfect opportunity to try to beat God to the punch by putting legends out there about what would come to be a historic truth regarding the true Messiah.

Ultimately, Christianity is true. Consider that the testimonies of Jesus were not simply concocted centuries after the supposed figure was long gone. To the contrary, the very people who walked with Jesus were still around when the gospels and epistles were written (1Co. 15:6). They were in a perfect position to refute the testimonies, especially considering the persecution they received from their Jewish brothers because of this testimony. Yet, we have not a single historical refutation of the accounts.

Every single one of Jesus' original twelve disciples (with the exception of Judas the traitor, and John the Beloved) was martyred for their faith. The testimonies they shared were, in fact, true (Lk. 1:3-4; Jn. 21:24), and even extrabiblical sources testify to their truths.

Just remember that the events surrounding Jesus' life were not concocted by a group of men who made up an account of a person long-since dead. His life was recorded during the lifetime of the very people who walked with Him, and it wasn't isolated to a group of twelve, but of thousands of people who had heard of Him, seen His miracles, and had come to sit under the direct teachings of the first-hand witnesses themselves.

I hope this sets your heart at ease. Your faith in Christ is not misplaced.

Pastor R. D. Weekly
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby Puppetburglar » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:27 pm

Many claim, quite compellingly, that 'Mithraism' was a competitor of early christianity, and it is generally excepted. Perhaps not quite true, however? Seems it was more a competitor of the gnostic vision of Christ than the church in general. It was not very egalitarian, nor was its hierarchy based on social control. Also this fun fact- It was spread by pirates! (Sort of...)

More about its astronomical/astrological insights that secretly influenced the alchemists (including Nostradamus) and which are relevant to this 2012 nonsense?
God is a comedian performing for an audience too afraid to laugh

Voltaire
User avatar
Puppetburglar
In Search of Reality
In Search of Reality
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:17 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:57 pm

I dont want to seem like im challenging anyones faith, we all believe what we want for reasons of our own.
But for me personally it makes more sense that the jesus story is an evolution of an older one, than a new one.
To me the video makes perfect sense and is a logical explaination ,without the need for "prophecy" as an explaination.

For example the dead sea scrolls which predate the christ story contain parts of that story.
this has led some to conclude a cut and paste job

http://freethoughtnation.com/index.php? ... 45:general

The Historical Messiah Behind the Myth
Beyond myths of incredible miracles, the Dead Sea Scrolls show the deposed High Priest and King of the Jews, Onias III, was recognised as the Messiah both by the Book of Daniel and the ancient Dead Sea sect.

Widely revered, this Teacher of Righteousness sacrificed himself willingly to satisfy the wrath of the ‘Wicked Priest’ in Jerusalem. On the holiest of all days, the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), set aside for the redemption of sin. I t was Onias who laid the foundations for the Christian faith and inspired the wonderful spiritual message and symbolism of the sacred Gospels.

The Dead Sea Scrolls show the magi, the Essene masters of astrology and the Kabbalah of the Tree of Life, had a greater, more credible role in the birth of Christianity.

The magi who attend the Birth of Jesus and prophesy so accurately his future are not really three ‘kings.’ These Persian magi are now properly translated as astrologers in many Bibles. Many Christians forget this celebration of the role of astrologers, preferring to quote the Old Testament where spurious astrology is treated with the same hostility as spurious religion.

Any great tradition can become the refuge of scoundrels : religion, nationalism, science, astrology, clairvoyance… But to dismiss any of these traditions because of the exploits of its rogues is a mistake and the New Testament rejects the Old Testament prejudice against astrologers.

In Revelation (22.16) Christ is actually called ‘the bright and morning star,’ a clear planetary reference, usually to Venus, sometimes Saturn. Heaven on Earth insists the Bible’s spiritual message should never be taken too superficially, too literally.

Conclusion
This reassessment of the importance of the Kabbalah (Tradition) of the Tree of Life and the Dead Sea Scrolls is not a challenge against faith. It is an explanation of those spiritual mysteries in modern, rational language. It is an attempt to make these spiritual facts of life accessible to all those who find Christ, God, and the world religions generally, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Tao, impossible to believe in. These revelations confirm the original sacred messages of faith. They do not necessarily endorse current interpretations of this original wisdom.

Revealing the secrets of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Kabbalah of the Tree of Life may give us a more mature understanding of what God wants. Rising from our knees and taking more responsibility for our lives and our world.

Scrolls Note
The Dead Sea Scrolls show the ancient Essene sect founded Christianity. The early Christians (the Nazarenes) copied the Essene sect in so many details, they must be closely connected. St Paul and other New Testament writers used the very phrases of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Sermon on the Mount is taken from a Dead Sea Scrolls original. Yet access to these scrolls would have been strictly limited to the Essene members, mortally sworn to secrecy.

There is no objective historical evidence for the life of Christ in the 1st century AD though we do have detailed accounts including John the Baptist and other charismatic religious leaders, even a ‘Messiah’ or two. The earliest Christian writer, St Paul, knows nothing of the Gospel stories and appears to quote a much older credo.

The Dead Sea Scrolls story gives us an historical Messiah endorsed by Scripture and lacking nothing in holiness, dignity and drama. The evidence suggests he was also the source of the Christian inspiration.

This history provides a credible evolution for the Christian faith, replacing the incredible, miraculous origins which served an earlier age. The sacred myth and message of the Gospels will serve us better if it is not confused with a literal history.


A Summary of the Evidence
Simply put the case for the Essene origins of Christianity are twofold. Firstly we simply have no other credible history for Christianity. Extensive material will shortly appear to explore this simple statement which so many have already accepted, opting out of the faith of their fathers. Others, perhaps worse in some cases, refuse to submit their faith to any reasonable discussion.

The second case is the overwhelming evidence that the early Christians copied not only the principal ideas of the Essenes but in many respects their organisational structure, their unique communal style, sharing all goods in common and even their system of discipline. This is quite extraordinary and difficult to explain for two supposedly rival groups who proclaimed rival Messiahs in one small nation. It is not difficult to explain why one group should have changed its mission and message slightly from a strictly exclusive sect to a public proclamation and evangelical direction.

One of the most compelling factors is the extensive use within the New Testament of material which not only reflects Essene ideas but actually repeatedly borrows the very phrases from the Scrolls. The Essenes were an extremely secretive, private sect. Membership required a two year probation after which successful candidates not only gave all their property to the sect but swore to keep its secrets unto death.

If any member was expelled for disobedience he might die for want of food because he remained bound by his oaths to eat only the community’s special diet. It is this diet which has led commentators to suggest John the Baptist may have been an Essene, with mention of his eating locusts and wild honey in the desert.

It is inconceivable in these circumstances the early Christians, the Nazarenes, should have had access to the sacred scriptures of the Dead Sea sect if they were not essentially one and the same organisation, recognising one Messiah.

The Sermon on the Mount
The sublime promises of the Sermon on the Mount have always been the crowning joy and the heart of the Christian message. The Beatitudes. Many scholars have accepted the Sermon on the Mount is a close copy of the scripture of the Essenes.

The original version of the Essenes was probably written two centuries earlier.


http://www.factsbehindfaith.com/default ... ntentID=13

Of course "prophecy" could explain this, or it may simply be what it looks like

Again im not posting in order to compete with anyones faith, one mans truth is another mans lie.
Its up to each of us to process the information and arrive at our personal truth, our own assesment of the reality
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby ryguy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:35 pm

AussieMike wrote:I dont want to seem like im challenging anyones faith, we all believe what we want for reasons of our own.
But for me personally it makes more sense that the jesus story is an evolution of an older one, than a new one.
To me the video makes perfect sense and is a logical explaination ,without the need for "prophecy" as an explaination.


Actually - the Jewish version was even older...Jewish prophesy (or the Jewish "story") predates all of the above. Hence - the Jews came up with the "messiah" story first, and that story tells the exact tale of the birth, persecution, death, resurrection, etc... The fact that later stories were created that mimicked Jewish messiah prophecy is irrelevant.

Now, the claims from guys like Paul, Matthew, etc... that they walked the earth with the man that allegedly fulfilled that prophecy - that's what people can choose to believe or not to believe. But to say his existence is nullified by the existence of an earlier story copied from Jewish prophecy is backwards logic and grasping at straws. (Not referring to you here, but the folks that came up with the "Jesus Conspiracy" nonsense).
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:08 pm

To me thats a significant part of the story, The OT promised salvation to a select few, the chosen ones.
The NT was necessary in order to allow all men to be offered a chance at heaven.

The problem here is that according to judaism the messiah is yet to come,

Judaism's view of Jesus is a very peripheral one. Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging of all false messiahs.[citation needed] However, since the general belief is that the Messiah has not yet come,[citation needed] the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism.

Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God


So in jewish tradition (with the exception of the messianic jewish subsect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism) if you worship jesus youve comitted idolotry and dont go to heaven.
In Christian Lore, unless you accept Christ..... you dont go to heaven.

In short jews and christians cant both eat at the pearly buffet, They cant both be right about this.
It is possible they are both wrong though. As an example lets say person A tells you clouds are made from white fairy floss, spun sugar, and person B tells you clouds are made from white goats hair. since spun sugar is not goats hair, and goats hair is not spun sugar, they cant both be right about the nature of clouds. They can of course both be wrong
I have a number of christian relatives who are quite happy with this though insisting jews (with the above mention subsect as exception) do not go to heaven, this despite the fact that the OT and the God of abraham are jewish books/deity to begin with.
They like to rationalise that the old rules in the OT such as deuteronomys rules about women wearing trousers or having your testes crushed (you dont get into heaven nor do your kids to the tenth generation) are replaced by the NT ruleset.
one even argued that 2 kings 2:24 was a good thing since god did it

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tore forty and two children of them


That it wasnt Lots fault he got not one but two of his daughters pregnant, drunk enough not to know what he was doing but not to drunk to F F Fornicate (try running that excuse up a magistrates flagpole today)

But even if we accept their premise, Tim 2:12 is NT

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent


Try running that one up your wife's flagpoles, in fact its that mindset thats causing the taliban to behead teachers in afganistan.

To me these point to the bible being more likely the word of man, and not a celestial deity.

The flood story is another poached tale from the epic of gilgamesh, and since the australian aboriginal has been here for at least 40,000 years the flood story could not be true, word of god ? or the word of men with limited knowledge.

I guess it depends on whether you belive in the mechanism of prophecy, for me ive never been able to find a quantifiable explaination for the mechanism that makes prophecy a real thing.
If prophecy is defined as information or data, how is it transmitted ? whats the carrier mechansim
i can understand how information is transmitted via telephone line, i can quantify how the data on your TV screen is transmitted to it, but ive yet to see an explaination for the carrier mechanism whereby the data of prophecy is transmitted to the prophet.

For me the bulk of evidence points to the bible being the word of man.

That doesnt mean i dont find value in it, i do. any history of man that old is of huge value, it gives us a snapshot of who we were, and how weve changed
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby Access Denied » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:20 am

AussieMike wrote:That doesnt mean i dont find value in it, i do. any history of man that old is of huge value, it gives us a snapshot of who we were, and how weve changed

Agreed, and one could argue belief in the Biblical myth actually helps some people in the absence of anything “easier” to believe in… especially if they were raised that way and it’s socially acceptable.

…unlike a belief in time traveling aliens which is neither socially acceptable nor scientifically credible in the least I might add. ;)
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:06 am

Access Denied wrote:
AussieMike wrote:That doesnt mean i dont find value in it, i do. any history of man that old is of huge value, it gives us a snapshot of who we were, and how weve changed

Agreed, and one could argue belief in the Biblical myth actually helps some people in the absence of anything “easier” to believe in… especially if they were raised that way and it’s socially acceptable.

…unlike a belief in time traveling aliens which is neither socially acceptable nor scientifically credible in the least I might add. ;)


I was wondering how long it would take :wink:

I dont "believe" in time traveling aliens, its an outlandish idea with no proof behind it, Is it possible ? anythings possible i guess, but without proof its just an idea, a mental construct.
Its no more scientifically credible , than a man 2000 odd years ago being the son of a celestial deity
People whove been dead 3 days, dont come back to life, its not scientifically credible
Writing something down, doesnt make it real.

Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof

The bible has been very helpful, in times gone by it was often the only book in the area, countless generations have learned to read from it, It could be proposed ,global literacy stems from such books.
Without the ability to read, tools like the internet would be useless

Is it any more relevant than that ? i dont think so TBH, concepts like Tim 2:12 have no place in the modern world.
To me the comments made in Tim 2:12 represent a snapshot of the attitudes of the time, and not the word of god.
Indeed some argue that since the phrase uses the word "I" its not gods commandment, but rather pauls edict

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority
over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman
who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they
continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
At first glance, 1 Tim 2:12 is an absolute ban on women
being involved in teaching or leadership, with the reason
grounded in the created order. But there are a number of
unusual features of the passage which must cause us to
question this.
First, it is curious that Paul prefaces his command
(in verse 12) with 'I do not permit...'. He does not say
'A woman must not teach...', but, 'I do not permit a woman
to teach...'. Could it be that Paul was simply giving a
personal command to a specific situation?
It is sometimes argued that, since Paul was writing under
God's inspiration, that his command is identical to God's
command. But it's not that simple. Paul is careful with
his words. He only says 'I' if there is a reason

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2384.htm

But then that reinforces the idea that this book is the word of men, not god.
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:31 am

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell.

With that in mind how many of you who subscribe to this faith follow the instructions in Tim 2:12

That is to say you do not permit women to have authority over you, and insist they remain silent.

Keeping in mind this is a NT instruction not an OT one, thus its still a valid instruction and in force today

its discussed in detail here

http://carm.org/apologetics/women-minis ... and-elders

Conclusion
It is indeed an unpopular notion that the husband is the head of the wife, that authority in the Church rests in the male, and that women are to learn in godly submission. But this does not mean that the Christian church should listen to the wisdom of the world, for it is not wisdom at all. Like it or not, the Scriptures teach that eldership, and pastor ship, is to be held by males. This is not to say that women aren't talented or even able to do their jobs in the church better than some men. But practicality does not trump doctrinal truth. We need to be faithful to God's Word.
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby ryguy » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:34 pm

AussieMike wrote:The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell.

With that in mind how many of you who subscribe to this faith follow the instructions in Tim 2:12

That is to say you do not permit women to have authority over you, and insist they remain silent.


This is a common quote that's often taken out of context against Christianity (mostly because the reference from over 2000 years ago can be used to horrify people of our modern culture). However, these are from the Pastoral letters of Timothy (dated only about a hundred years after Christ died, by the way).

It was written in Greece and the audience were the Greek Gnostics, not future generations of Christians in 2010. Context is everything, and understanding the historical audience of every biblical writing is critical as well. Unfortunately most bible thumpers don't even understand the historical context - and therin lies half of the problem...

Those Gnostics (whom Timothy was addressing) were teaching so-called "heresies" such as dualism or a dependence on knowledge rather than faith to attain salvation. Gnostic teachings also included "secret doctrine" reserved for only the upper tier within the faith (something you also see in most Masonic/Illuminati organizations based on those same Gnostic principles). Timothy was directly referencing the fact that those Gnostic teachings actually glorified women (principles you still see today - as Wiccan religions drew from those Gnostic teachings). Timothy was concerned that the Gnostics were actually using women and feminine images to reference God - and he was directly addressing the topic of "Instructions to Worship" - not instructions on how to live your life, as most modern anti-Christians attempt to imply.

The following emphasis is mine. Modern anti-Christians pluck out only the lines where he essentially is telling the female Gnostics to sit down and shut up... and he's telling all of the gnostics to stop fighting amongst themselves about these things.

Urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Now, clearly he holds the cultural ideals of the time about women's place in that society and his opinions in the last paragraph reflect that - but observe the line that is often misquoted: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission."

Submission is a constant theme throughout the bible directed at both men and women. In fact, in Ephesian 5:25, men are advised how their submission in worship should appear related to women.

Ephesian 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.


By the the way, Christians are the worst offenders when it comes to the mis-quoting and out-of-context use of biblical quotes in order to support what they would like to believe the text is saying. Most of them fail to understand the historical context of the writing as well - which leads to idiots attempting to support bigotry, sexism and more, by quoting the bible. It's really disgusting.

-Ryan

--

References for the historical info above:
- 1992 Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, pages 341-360
- 1992 Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, pages 481 and 486 (‘I Timothy 2:15: A Possible Understanding of a Difficult Text’
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:36 pm

Its been argued the edict was not culturally motivated

Paul tells us that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is because Adam was created first, then Eve. The statement clearly removes the previous verse (v. 12) from being culturally motivated. Paul equates the issue of authority with the created order.


The context does not fit the specific target theory

It makes no sense to teach that 1 Timothy 2:12 is referring to an individual woman who was preaching false doctrine. It doesn't fit the context. The woman isn't named even though Paul names at least two false teachers. Paul consistently uses the plural when referring to heretics, not the singular. Hesuchia is used instead of sigao which would mean that the heretical woman should teach her heresy in a subdued manner -- and this makes no sense in light of the argument. Paul doesn't use heterodidaskaleo (false teaching) when referring to this supposed woman's false teaching even though he uses the word before and after 2:12 in the same epistle to refer to heretical teaching. Didasko (teach) is used three additional times besides here in 2:12, in 1 and 2 Timothy and each time it means to teach good doctrine. Why is it different in 2:12? And, if "a woman" is a single person and not women in general, then should we conclude that only heretical women should learn with submissiveness? Of course not. Therefore, for these reasons, we cannot conclude that "a woman" is in reference to particular individual female who is teaching false doctrines, but to women in general.

The truth is that women in general, married or not, are to learn in submission in the church and are not to hold authoritative teaching positions such as pastor and elder which are repeated stated to be held by men.


the husband and wife angle

Another argument offered concerning 1 Tim. 2:12 is to say that the Greek words "gyne" (woman) and "andros" (man) mean wife and husband. This would render the verse as, "But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet," (1 Tim. 2:12). Supporters of this argument then conclude that this would not prevent a woman from being a pastor since this is not speaking of women in general, but only wives in relation to their husbands. Is this argument sound? No, it isn't.

1.If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught she'd be teaching her husband. This can't work -- unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!
2.In all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why do people assert that it is about a husband and wife?
3.The context of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 is dealing with all the broader context of all women in the church. That is, Paul wants all women to adorn themselves with proper clothing. Following the address to women, he then expounds on the issue of teaching and authority and then later in 3:11 he addresses women in the plural again.


http://carm.org/apologetics/women-minis ... and-elders

The bottom line is if this is gods "perfect" word, there can be no ambiguity. Women must submit to men, in silence.
God commands it
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:05 pm

They knew of the prophesied Messiah through their studies of the Hebrew Scriptures.

So then, it comes as no surprise that some of the similarities between the Mithran tale and the Lord Jesus were the very things prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.

It is a reality that the cult of Mithras predates Christianity. But, it does not predate the Hebrew texts that the Babylonian/Persian mystics actually studied. Christianity, then, does not borrow from Mithraism. To the contrary, Mithraism borrows from the prophesied Hebrews texts regarding the coming Messiah.


On this point, its an old adage you cant have your cake and eat it too.

If we are going to use the hebrew texts as confirmation a messiah will be sent, then we need to look at what they say about JC

Judaism's view of Jesus is a very peripheral one. Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging of all false messiahs.[citation needed] However, since the general belief is that the Messiah has not yet come,[citation needed] the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism.

Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[2][3]


Its impossible to use the old hebrew texts to validate JC as the messiah, God makes it very very clear in his original edicts you shall have no other but me, no graven images (dead guy on a plank ?) no idols, no flesh and blood people as objects of worship.
Any practise that has more than one point of worship is polythesim, catholicism is a classic example, God, JC,Mary a plethora of saints, and a man in rome....... all objects of worship
Christianity is by definition polytheism, one point of worship a celestial creator, and a second focus his terrestrial offspring, now i can foresee the counter now, JC and God are one and the same, but they are not.
One is an immortal non terrestrial creator who cant be killed, the other a man born of woman who was killed.
I am my biological fathers son, but im not my father, we are two distict beings.

According to the very tradition you claim validates JC as the messiah, you are a mortal sinner if you worship JC.

I get why the NT was necessary, the ruleset of the OT was too strong, there was no hope of salvation for many under the OT ruleset.

The worship of God must remain pure, uninfluenced by neighbouring cultures and their idolatrous religious practices. The death penalty is prescribed for conversion from Yahwism and for proselytisation.
The death penalty is also prescribed for males who are guilty of disobeying their parents, profligacy, or drunkenness.
Certain Dietary principles are enjoined.
The law of rape prescribes various conditions and penalties, depending on whether the girl is engaged to be married or not, and whether the rape occurs in a town or in the country. (Deuteronomy 22)
A Tithe for the Levites and charity for the poor.
A regular Jubilee Year during which all debts are cancelled.
Slavery can last no more than 6 years if the individual purchased is "thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman."
Yahwistic religious festivals—including Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot—are to be part of Israel's worship
The offices of Judge, King, Kohen (temple priest), and Prophet are instituted
A ban against worshipping Asherah next to altars dedicated to YHWH, and the erection of sacred stones
A ban against children either being immolated or passing through fire (the text is ambiguous as to which is meant), divination, sorcery, witchcraft, spellcasting, and necromancy
A ban forbidding blemished animals from becoming sacrifices at the Temple
Naming of three cities of refuge where those accused of manslaughter may flee from the avenger of blood.
Exemptions from military service for the newly betrothed, newly married, owners of new houses, planters of new vineyards, and anyone afraid of fighting.
The peace terms to be offered to non-Israelites before battle - the terms being that they are to become slaves
The Amalekites to be utterly destroyed
An order for parents to take a stubborn and rebellious son before the town elders to be stoned.
A ban on the destruction of fruit trees, the mothers of newly-born birds, and beasts of burden which have fallen over or are lost
Rules which regulate marriage, and Levirate Marriage, and allow divorce.
The procedure to be followed if a man suspects that his new wife is not a virgin: if the wife's parents are able to prove that she was indeed a virgin then the man is fined; otherwise the wife is stoned to death.[5]
Purity laws which prohibit the mixing of fabrics, of crops, and of beasts of burden under the same yoke.
The use of Tzitzit (tassels on garments)
Prohibition against people from Ammon, Moab, or who are of illegitimate birth, and their descendants for ten generations, from entering the assembly; the same restriction upon those who are castrated (but not their descendants)
Regulations for ritual cleanliness, general hygiene, and the treatment of Tzaraath
A ban on religious prostitution
Regulations for slavery, servitude, vows, debt, usury, and permissible objects for securing loans
Prohibition against wives making a groin attack on their husband's adversary.
Regulations on the taking of wives from among beautiful female captives.[6]
A ban on transvestism.[7]
Regulations on military camps, including a cleanliness regime for soldiers who have had wet dreams and procedures for the burial of human excrement.[8]


Some transgressions meant not only do you not enter the kingdom of heaven, but that ban extends to your offspring for ten generations......

So as a person of the time i say, i want to convert to your religion, question:, did your great great great grandma wear trousers even once.... answer: i think so..... bad luck son your wasting your time

But according to the hebrew tradition God still expects the edicts of the OT to be obeyed.
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby ryguy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:51 pm

AussieMike wrote:Its impossible to use the old hebrew texts to validate JC as the messiah, God makes it very very clear in his original edicts you shall have no other but me, no graven images (dead guy on a plank ?) no idols, no flesh and blood people as objects of worship.


No it's not impossible, because the only point in question in this thread is the origin of the "messiah" story, not whether people believe Christ was the messiah. As I've already showed you, the Jewish prophecy told of the messiah story long before anyone else.

Does this prove that Christ was the messiah? No. Does it prove that the Sun-God story is irrelevant? Yes...because the Jewish messiah prophecy predated it. Case closed.
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby AussieMike » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:10 am

Actually the sun god story predates the written word, no doubt having its origins in an oral tradition.

Stonehenge predates the torah by more than a 1000 years, as does the Horus story

It would be more accurate to say that the hebrew texts were copied from the horus tradtion, and the jesus tradition taken from them

The jewish messiah prophecy does not predate the sun god tradition, its the other way around, the sun god tradition predates the written word, people would have been observing the suns movement through the sky long before the written word.

Clearly then the jesus story, the jewish prophesy and the horus tradition all come from an older sun god one.

Which is to say they are all copies, updated ,jazzed up versions of the original
AussieMike
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Jesus meme, poached from an older myth ?

Postby ryguy » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:58 pm

AussieMike wrote:Actually the sun god story predates the written word, no doubt having its origins in an oral tradition.


That's an assumption on your part and there's no evidence for it. The earliest written story (and evidence) of the messiah-like story is the Hebrew text. Assuming there was a oral history that contained it is a gross assumption. The original link/claim in this thread was that the earlier "writings" predate everything, but that's not true. The Jewish story does.
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Next

Google

Return to Spirituality and the Paranormal

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron