The Bible,The Ancients, Text,& The Spirit Realm

[AussieMike]

Heres another idea.
Now i know its going to be impossible for some to consider it for even a short while, i can only ask you try .

Lets suppose for a moment that God does not exist, that there is no heaven and hell, that there is no eternal life when you die, only oblivion.
That your conciousness set, your database of experience, your soul if thats the word you prefer,is "wasted"

If an ET race were to have found they could use this "soul" to animate their biobots, would they have a right to recycle something that is only going to be "wasted" anyway.
From their perspective would they not think that what they were doing was a "good" thing ?

Providing a technological mechanism for continued existance where none exists naturally.

Would that not from their pov be a "win win" scenario ?

[ScaRZ]

If there were no heaven and no hell,just death and nothing. Then that means all would one day end......"Including the little aliens." Everything as seen is in a form of decay or death.

No matter how long the little aliens kept themselves or us in the mix,one day it's going to end. It could go on for many years,but it will finally come to complete decay. Re-vamping something time and time again I believe will come at a price of shortening of time.

[AussieMike]

If there were no heaven and no hell,just death and nothing. Then that means all would one day end......"Including the little aliens." Everything as seen is in a form of decay or death.

No matter how long the little aliens kept themselves or us in the mix,one day it's going to end. It could go on for many years,but it will finally come to complete decay. Re-vamping something time and time again I believe will come at a price of shortening of time.

Yeah but that could be the reality, Humanitys wishful thinking in regards to heaven and hell,life after death has no real impact on the greater reality of universal mechanics.
Long before humans walked this planet, the universe was doing its thing, i think thats a "constant" thats unaffected by man and his ideas about what happens when you die.
But you are thinking like a "flatlander" that is to say you think in terms of linear time.
You can only concieve of being able to travel on one axis of the universe, that is distance. A to B from home to the shops, from earth to alpha centuri, you can change your "co-ordinates" on that axis, you do it everytime you leave the house, even if its only to check the mailbox, or buy bread.
From your perspective you cant change your temporal co-ordinates, you are "stuck" in the now.
But what if thats a limit that can be breached, what if you could travel Both axis of the universal fabric, Distance and duration.
What if you had the technology to have breakfast overlooking the big bang, and dinner at the resturant at the end of the universe........

For us time is a river, with us clinging to the log of "now". That river starts in the mountains and ends at the sea.
From that perspective we will eventually reach the end, and that will be that ,we will be "there" and nothing will take us back from there.
But what if a helicopter flys over and throws you a rope, using this technology you could exit the stream and fly to the end or back to the mountain where it starts, you are no longer caught in the flow, you can be at any point in the river you choose, from this perspective the begining and end of the river no longer bind you.

From this dimension above the river of time, the begining and the end are just temporal co-ordinates, and infinity in the truest sense of the word becomes your playground

I know its trite to cite a sci fi reference, but does the Dr Who character have to worry about the "end" of the universe ? possesing as he does a Time And Relative Dimesnions In Space (TARDIS) machine, the "day it all ends" is simply a temporal co-ordinate to avoid, The planet has a number of active volcanoes, were we to change our geographic co-ordinates so's to be standing in the caldera of one.......that would be as catastrophic to us, as the day it all ends, so we dont "go there" and we are safe. Volcanos are a natural feature of the planet, the "end of the universe" may be a natural feature of the universe, but from the dimension above linear time its easy enough to avoid, this leaves the rest of the planet thats not a volcano and the rest of time thats not the "end" of the universe to play in.

[AussieMike]

Infinity or eternity is a funny thing, infinity can be contained within the finite.
To a species who can change temporal co-ordinates , infinity is indeed their playground.

even if the universe is finite, it can contain infinity.

I know that sounds impossible but mathematically its not.

Take the number one (1). is it a finite number ? most would say yes, and it is. one unit of measurement is finite.
But mathmatically this finite number can contain infinity.

It works like this

Take One, divide it in half, discard half. Take the remaining half, divide it in half, discard half, take the remaining half divide it in half..............

Mathmatically you can do this for eternity, infinity within the finite

Sierpinski's triangle illustrates the principle (Note that this infinite process is not dependent upon the starting shape being a triangle—it is just clearer that way)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpinski_triangle

Most people dont "see" infinity inside the finite number One, but its there.

So too a universe thats seen as having a "begining" and an "end" seems finite, but if you can step up or out to the dimension above linear time, infinity/eternity becomes your playground

[ScaRZ]

What if I had never touched the keys of the keypad of a computer?

Would the very soul that I am be different?

I believe everything and everyone we come in contact with molds us into the souls we are.

Right this very moment in time that I read your words and you read my words our very souls that we are has changed.

We can never return to the souls we were before we read each others words.

[AussieMike]

Well that matches my suggestion that "soul" is simply a word for experience sets, in that case uploading "a person's entire personality, memory, skills and history", would indeed capture their soul.
And it looks like we will eventually develop the technology to upload and transfer souls from biological vessel to artificial platform and back to a biological vessel again.
Add the technology to change temporal co-ordinates to that bag, and not only will the people of that time have access to "eternity" in the heavens in a new body, but they will also be able to go "downtime" and offer this to their ancestors.
In a sense you could describe this as the "end of days when all shall be raised from the grave".......................

End of days being a refence to the ability to step out of the river of time and access the eternity of the dimension above it

[AussieMike]

As ive said in another thread, there is no proof aliens from outside linear time are harvesting souls.
Indeed there is no proof any of the myriad life after death scenarios concocted by the various cultures are real.
Oblivion is as likely a scenario as any, though again there is no proof thats the reality either, and it doesnt make for much of a discussion while we wait to die, since its very premise is a dead end (pun intended)
Its all hypothetical from my pov.
But for the sake of putting food for thought on the intellectual buffet table, lets look at the gestalt of the biblical message.

That an offworld intellect has taken an interest in us, and even moulded us in its own image (mental or physical ?)
That its not bound by linear time "i am the alpha and the omega"
That it harvests souls, giving them a new body free from disease and hunger
That having done so you can enjoy eternity in the heavens (offworld)
That there is no other way to do this but via this one specific mechanism
That love and rejection of evil are all the luggage you need bring with you.

Now for most people of biblical faith, this conjures an image of pearly gates, angels playing golden harps, while St Pete checks your name against the naughty and nice list.

So out of interest if after you die instead of the angels and harps, you wake up on a structured craft and are offered the same deal, that your soul/experience set and memorys can be transfered to a new optimised clone body, using advanced medical transplant technology. that once done you can repeat the process as needed and continue your existance ad infinitum ,free to explore the universe/heavens as it suits you ?

Would you accept the offer if it was the only way to eternal life ? or reject it.

Ok so theres no angels in flowing robes, but its got to beat Anubis weighing your heart against a feather yeah ?

[ScaRZ]

So out of interest if after you die instead of the angels and harps, you wake up on a structured craft and are offered the same deal, that your soul/experience set and memorys can be transfered to a new optimised clone body, using advanced medical transplant technology. that once done you can repeat the process as needed and continue your existance ad infinitum ,free to explore the universe/heavens as it suits you ?

Would you accept the offer if it was the only way to eternal life ? or reject it.

Ok so theres no angels in flowing robes, but its got to beat Anubis weighing your heart against a feather yeah ?

Sure Mike I can play along.

First I don't see the fairy tale that you and many others lay out for heaven. I most certainly don't picture angels playing harps sitting on fluffy white clouds. I also don't see Peter with a book in his hand allowing you in through the gates of heaven.



Now to your question"Would you accept the offer if it was the only way to eternal life ? or reject it."

I would reject it and take "Nothing". If there was no heaven and no hell and I chose "Nothing" it would be nothing. I wouldn't be I......I doesn't exist.


This reminds me some of a question my Grandfather ask me a few years before he died.

This has nothing to do with my faith,but was a question my Grandfather ask me many years ago and it has stuck with me through time. He and I use to get into some deep conversations and one day he ask me this very question below. He told me I had to answer it before I left......"It was around an hour I had to think and answer his question." NO! ducking around it,it was one answer or the other.

His question..........If you had a choice right this moment in time and had to choose one answer or the other which would you choose...... To die and there be......"Nothing",and when I say nothing I mean nothing?

Or would you make the choice to die and be reborn over and over for eternity?

If you choose to die and be reborn you will live and die as every [Human] who has ever lived. You will be every male and every female human....."No animals or creatures of any kind,only human. You will know every pleasure as well as every horror. You will live and die every death of infants,children,teens,adults and the very old.

One day you will live the life of your mother,father,sister,brother,
children........Everybody!!! Everyone who has ever and will ever live and die a life.


I will tell you it took me a long time before I gave him an answer. I ask him many questions and then thought about it before I told him I would choose to die and there be nothing.


When my Grandfather ask me this question,my first thought was would it be better to be conscience of something,feel something as nothing at all.

I ask my Grandfather if I would be able to remember anything from my past lives and he said no.

I then got to thinking about [all humans] and the lives and deaths of each of them. That is in my opinion impossible for the mind to comprehend. Every single person that has and will live and die. Whether the life is no more than a twinkling of an eye or you live hundreds of years........You would live them all.

I would experience all the greatness,friendship and love that has dwelt in the hearts.

I got to thinking how I would live the lives of all the famous people down through history. But 99.99% of lives would be the names that are never remembered and have no fame attached to them. Every possible way of death I would partake of. I not only would be on the receiving end, but also be the one to administer it through countless lives.

The thing is there would never be a way to change anything. Your next life and death would only be a random thing. It's all set in stone and every choice that has been made will be made......"Over and Over" through all eternity." You will live and die every life and it will be as it was.

What comes around,goes around....."Around and around inside a circle for ever and ever." You would be inside a circle and there would never be any way to penetrate and move outside the circle. Trapped like a rat inside a maze with no exit.

One day you would live my life just as I've lived it......."Nothing can be changed from exactly how I've lived it." I would live yours also.

[AussieMike]

Thanks for the answer, though i admit it raises more questions than it does answers

so you belive in reincarnation when you die rather than the traditional depiction of "heaven" harps and all ?

[AussieMike]

I would reject it and take "Nothing". If there was no heaven and no hell and I chose "Nothing" it would be nothing. I wouldn't be I......I doesn't exist.

But you do exist now.
The existance of heaven and hell is one based on faith.
Lets just suppose for a moment they really dont exist, that they are just cultural memes passed down the generations as an explaination for the big question , what happens when you die ?

If it turns out there is no heaven and hell, you still exist.

I referenced the anubis meme earlier, i think we can both agree that doesnt happen when you die, but the egyptians who believed that still existed

This is just a hypothetical, ive never suggested this IS what happens when you die, But what if in the above scenario you find yourself on a structured craft when your original native bioform wears out, and that your grandfather(and the rest of your loved ones) are there, and can prove to you its him/them, would you still choose not to be recycled into a "new" body in heaven.

Im trying to understand why the idea of a purely technological mechanism for continued existance after the native bioform has worn out, is not acceptable where a supernatural one (heaven and hell etc etc) is.
To me the basic premise is identical, only the window dressing is different

[ScaRZ]

so you belive in reincarnation when you die rather than the traditional depiction of "heaven" harps and all ?

No! you misunderstood. I don't go the reincarnation route. I believe in a heaven but not the way we have been brainwashed from the time we were very young......"I call fairy tales". I believe most people view it through the eyes of art work created by men/women. I also don't picture Angels (Messengers) as the vast majority do. I see them as spirit men (Spiritual Bodied) creations of The LORD.

[AussieMike]

so you belive in reincarnation when you die rather than the traditional depiction of "heaven" harps and all ?

No! you misunderstood. I don't go the reincarnation route. I believe in a heaven but not the way we have been brainwashed from the time we were very young......"I call fairy tales". I believe most people view it through the eyes of art work created by men/women. I also don't picture Angels (Messengers) as the vast majority do. I see them as spirit men (Spiritual Bodied) creations of The LORD.

Ah Ok, Yes thats pretty valid point, there is indeed a big difference of the anglicised jesus thats shown in some bibles


and what people of that time and place actually looked like




There was a very definate trend to distort the image to make him look like an englishman
Its amazing how many people picture JC as blond haired and blue eyed

[ScaRZ]

The thing about the "Image" or painting can be a big problem in my eyes. It doesn't matter if I had been there and walked with Jesus Christ when he was on this earth,painted,drew a picture,or if it had been possible to take a photo of him.

That artwork or photo is not him,only an image of him. If I or anyone else took that image and began to bow to it,worship,serve,or pray to it......"It now has become an idol."

Very same thing goes for The Shroud of Turin. If it was proven without a doubt that it was the covering on Jesus Christ and people began to fall down and worship it in any way,this also has become an idol.

[AussieMike]

The thing about the "Image" or painting can be a big problem in my eyes. It doesn't matter if I had been there and walked with Jesus Christ when he was on this earth,painted,drew a picture,or if it had been possible to take a photo of him.

That artwork or photo is not him,only an image of him. If I or anyone else took that image and began to bow to it,worship,serve,or pray to it......"It now has become an idol."

Very same thing goes for The Shroud of Turin. If it was proven without a doubt that it was the covering on Jesus Christ and people began to fall down and worship it in any way,this also has become an idol.

I suppose this applies to carved images too ?

or crosses worn on a chain around the neck ?

[You Can Call Me Ray]

This reminds me some of a question my Grandfather ask me a few years before he died.

This has nothing to do with my faith,but was a question my Grandfather ask me many years ago and it has stuck with me through time. He and I use to get into some deep conversations and one day he ask me this very question below. He told me I had to answer it before I left......"It was around an hour I had to think and answer his question." NO! ducking around it,it was one answer or the other.

His question..........If you had a choice right this moment in time and had to choose one answer or the other which would you choose...... To die and there be......"Nothing",and when I say nothing I mean nothing?

Or would you make the choice to die and be reborn over and over for eternity?

If you choose to die and be reborn you will live and die as every [Human] who has ever lived. You will be every male and every female human....."No animals or creatures of any kind,only human. You will know every pleasure as well as every horror. You will live and die every death of infants,children,teens,adults and the very old.

One day you will live the life of your mother,father,sister,brother,
children........Everybody!!! Everyone who has ever and will ever live and die a life.


I will tell you it took me a long time before I gave him an answer. I ask him many questions and then thought about it before I told him I would choose to die and there be nothing.


When my Grandfather ask me this question,my first thought was would it be better to be conscience of something,feel something as nothing at all.

I ask my Grandfather if I would be able to remember anything from my past lives and he said no.

I then got to thinking about [all humans] and the lives and deaths of each of them. That is in my opinion impossible for the mind to comprehend. Every single person that has and will live and die. Whether the life is no more than a twinkling of an eye or you live hundreds of years........You would live them all.

I would experience all the greatness,friendship and love that has dwelt in the hearts.

I got to thinking how I would live the lives of all the famous people down through history. But 99.99% of lives would be the names that are never remembered and have no fame attached to them. Every possible way of death I would partake of. I not only would be on the receiving end, but also be the one to administer it through countless lives.

The thing is there would never be a way to change anything. Your next life and death would only be a random thing. It's all set in stone and every choice that has been made will be made......"Over and Over" through all eternity." You will live and die every life and it will be as it was.

What comes around,goes around....."Around and around inside a circle for ever and ever." You would be inside a circle and there would never be any way to penetrate and move outside the circle. Trapped like a rat inside a maze with no exit.

You make it sound like such an awful thing. But there is another way to view this sceanrio:

The Meaning of (Human) Life

Ray