Do you 'Hear Voices'

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Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:00 am

Do you 'Hear Voices' in your head?

I maintain many if not most people do, but its just the subsconscious working of the brain, in effect different part of the brain communicating but on a lower, near subconscious level.

Ive heard voices, or what I consider to be voices, talking to me since my teens. But came to realise that it was me talking to me subconsciously?

Could this be the reason some people were called mad when they would say they 'heard voices in their head'? could it simply be a deeper part of the brain communicating?

Or am I mad ? (some would say I am :D )
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby Tim Hebert » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:05 pm

Good morning Charlton (I'm in Southern California),

Great posting topic! Since leaving the military, I'm employed with a university medical center in the field of psychiatric medicine. Its really a question of how one utilizes their thought process for problem solving. For example, while contemplating a thought some people will speak this thought out loud especially in an attempt to seek a solution to a problem. You maybe merely "hearing" an echo of this type of on-going process.

We no longer use the term "subconscious." This is the psychiatric and pyschology field's attempt to distance itself from old Freudian concepts. We now use the term "unconscious" as in the unconscious mind. Confusing isn't it? Since one generally has a totally different thought about an individual being "unconcious" versus being awake. General medicine still uses the traditional concept of unconsciousness (lack of total awareness of ones environment or not being awake) but classifies differences by using the term "levels of unconciousness"

Generally speaking, conditions such as paranoid schizophrenia conjures up the image of one "hearing" voices. For a male, the voice tends to be female though not always. The voices start out to be flattering to the individual then gradually changing in demeaner leading to be accusatory in nature. In extreme cases these voices may lead to a commad nature ordering or daring the individual to do a specific act. Of course with schizophrenia there are other processes in the brain that are adverse in effecting the individuals thought process and contents - fragmentation and disorganization.

There is a normal condition where individuals may misinterpret normal sounds in their environment as human voices. This may occur during intense period of concentration such as reading a book, typing on a computer, etc. People often "hear" voices prior to waking from sleep. So cheer up, your in good company!

Tim
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby Chorlton » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:11 pm

Tim Hebert wrote:Good morning Charlton (I'm in Southern California),

Great posting topic! Since leaving the military, I'm employed with a university medical center in the field of psychiatric medicene. Its really a question of how one utilizes their thought process for problem solving. For example, while contemplating a thought some people will speak this thought out loud especially in an attempt to seek a solution to a problem. You maybe merely "hearing" an echo of this type of on-going process.

We no longer use the term "subconscious." This is the psychiatric and pyschology field's attempt to distance itself from old Freudian concepts. We now use the term "unconscious" as in the unconscious mind. Confusing isn't it? Since one generally has a totally different thought about an individual being "unconcious" versus being awake. General medicene still uses the traditional concept of unconsciousness (lack of total awareness of ones environment or not being awake) but classifies differences by using the term "levels of unconciousness"

Generally speaking, conditions such as paranoid schizophrenia conjures up the image of one "hearing" voices. For a male, the voice tends to be female though not always. The voices start out to be flattering to the individual then gradually changing in demeaner leading to be accusatory in nature. In extreme cases these voices may lead to a commad nature ordering or daring the individual to do a specific act. Of course with schizophrenia there are other processes in the brain that are adverse in effecting the individuals thought process and contents - fragmentation and disorganization.

There is a normal condition where individuals may misinterpret normal sounds in their environment as human voices. This may occur during intense period of concentration such as reading a book, typing on a computer, etc. People often "hear" voices prior to waking from sleep. So cheer up, your in good company!

Tim


Morning Tim

I suppose I should enlarge on my thoughts.
The 'Voices' thing isnt quite right. Its more a sensation thats inside my head than actual voices, I dont hear them I feel them..
It isnt the 'Lets go murder' thing it just seems to be my own brain analysing things, asking questions, or is that what people consider as 'Thought'?
I dont, as to me 'Thought' is a more conscious thing. To me it seems like parts of my brain communicating with others.
Maybe its a musician thing, Tapping your foot to a beat whilst strumming a guitar whilst picking strings or making chords.

Curious.
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby Tim Hebert » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:20 pm

I believe that you have identified a logical rationalization. Thought is an on-going process it never ceases while we are conscious, that is awake. When we are asleep then that is a slightly different matter though it may be a different form of the thought process, ie, dream states. What you have described is definitely part of "your" thought process.

I think that you hit the nail on the head as far as being a musician. My wife is the same since she is a singer.

Have a great day,

Tim
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby franspeakfree » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:03 pm

Ok I am going to take the plunge and go for it, I do so with the provisory that I am not going to be judged.

Since the age of 19 I have heard voices. Its not a case of hearing voices through your ears as sounds, more like understanding internally coming from the very centre of my head. I can't really explain it without others experiencing it but the way I perceive it is like a tuner dial on a radio, some days I can really 'tune in' and others its just me trying to 'tune in' When I talk about voices I am not saying that they want me to sacrifice anyone in the name of satan. More like personal information that I can use in order to discover new things.

When I hear 'voices' straight away I tell my partner and we try and work it out. I remember standing outside in the garden once, before the time of ATS and conspiracies and I remember saying out loud "I need answers" I won't go in to detail because its a little personal but it was about EBE's and UFO's but the 'spiritual' side of things and I remember the answer in my own translation Are you ready, this is much deeper than you realise, it goes beyond your comprehension pretty much a few days later I was at work and I went in to the office where one of my newly discovered like minded friend of mine was and he was on ATS I asked him what he was looking at and that moment, words cannot describe what I felt like. It felt as though everything in my life was coming together so I could begin to piece the millions of jigsaw pieces in my mind together.

This pretty much sums up my entire life, sometimes I can go without this level of communication for a week or so other times its intense, almost always there is something to found in them.
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby chrLz » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:56 pm

Just for the statistical record :D, I can't say I've ever 'heard' or even 'felt' voices, in the forms being described here. However, I also can't even begin to imagine what it is like to be in another's head, if you get my drift, nor to be able to describe my own... The way in which we perceive, think, experience, dream, wonder, imagine, etc, has to be a personal thing, and of course we don't have anything approaching a methodology of trying to compare our internal thought processes.

This is where science and logic must, almost by definition, break down. All we can observe and measure is the outcomes and actions, and that really isn't addressing the issue at all. So.. unlike my usual down to earth logical approach, this is surely the perfect area where each individual's attempt to explain how they feel and think is the only 'valid' data.

In a way, I'm sad to report that my own thinking seems to be mostly devoid of anything unexplainable, but .. there are times.... :? I'll ponder this and see if I can elaborate further. But voices? Not really..
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby franspeakfree » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:17 pm

chrLz wrote:
This is where science and logic must, almost by definition, break down. All we can observe and measure is the outcomes and actions, and that really isn't addressing the issue at all. So.. unlike my usual down to earth logical approach, this is surely the perfect area where each individual's attempt to explain how they feel and think is the only 'valid' data.


Indeed our science and logic dictates that everything that is described by an individual can be explained simply,because somehow we are under the arrogant assumption that we know everything and to those questions we do not hold the answers to, they are irrelevant and should not be discussed, or if so then a certain tone and ridicule must be added to validate our egos. (I use we and our as a collective hu-man race)

When I was younger I wanted everyone to experience what I experience I started with my family and then moved on to my friends. I was amazed at how they changed after I showed them various bits and pieces in order to become one with the body and mind and therefore, feel,hear,experience a little easier. My ego grew and grew, in my 20's I began to think I was something special. It wasn't until I went in to hospital that everything changed for me.

As I have said many times its a very complicated issue to look (physically/mentally) at something outside of the box that by scientific rights shouldn't be there, however, It is my opinion that anyone can indeed experience life outside of the box if they choose to.

When I tell people about my beliefs they say to me 'how can I experience' I used to go in to great details and tell them more than they could understand at the time and completely confuse them. However, now I say this.

If you make the choice and you choose to see another side of life then just sit in a quiet place away from any distraction and close your eyes and relax, the rest comes naturally
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby the|exx » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:24 pm

I've heard voices before, but it was chemically induced. All I can say is that it was seductive, but petrifying at the same time. As I'm not sure on T&C regarding these things on RU, I will remain discrete.

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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'?

Postby m0r1arty » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:08 pm

Right then,

Time for one of my few 'paranormal' personal perceptions.

I hear voices.

I'm not joking or making light of it. I hear voices.

Now I only hear them when someone else is talking, or when I see imagery change to other imagery.

The voices I hear are the undertones of what is being stated obviously. And again this isn't mocking or putting down what other people perceive or think about their situation.

If I have a group of friends around me I hear them all banter off each other and discuss things the same way that anyone else would hear it. However, I hear...other things too. It is the full spectrum of emotions I detect but generally the ones that flag up are jealously, rivalry, paranoia, showmanship, lies, distraction and allegiance.

It's not difficult to describe, but it does seem rather long winded. Tone, pace, words used, body language and to whom and when all indicate ulterior messages which usually seem to pan out over time to be the truth. It's very hard to block out and usually sees me try to break away from a big group or stay away from television and radio as I can't help but focus on these 'voices' and what they are saying behind the safety of what is taken as accepted.

I don't think of myself as psychic or any other such nonsense - I have always had a close bond with language, poetry in particular, and think that maybe I hear what I subconsciously search for. I suppose it's a natural form of cold reading. It's not 100% correct but does give me doubt when things seem to background that are not being made public.

It also gets me in trouble a lot as I say things as I see them and calling someone in public for something that they are trying to hide usually upsets people.

I think we all have it, it's just whether or not you are attuned to it or, probably better still, know how to turn it off for your own advantage within group settings.

So there we have it, I don't believe in ghosts, visiting aliens or anything else unprovable. I do think though that we are more aware of what's being said and displayed around us and either choose to ignore it's strong hidden messages or are not able to see them as quickly as others.

If anyone else shares these types of thoughts I'd appreciate their input.

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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby ryguy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:11 pm

The only time I've ever heard voices is when they originate from outside of my head. I've had very deep thinking sessions where I have an internal debate or conflict with myself, but those thoughts, however powerful, are always very distinct from when I hear external voices and they are never detached from my own brain. In other words, I know that even with random thoughts they originate from my own brain and they could in no way be called "voices."

I personally know people that have said that they've heard very real voices, detached from their own psyche, in their head. They are also people that are sensitive to the feelings/mood of others, which sort of confirms m0r1arty's thoughts above.

I believe these people, and I have suspicions as to what may be causing the "experience" but I'd rather not share those suspicions because I could very well be wrong and I'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist or a medical doctor. But I do like your theory m0r1arty, that as humans we're more perceptive/aware of things within the environment - even energies/radiations/etc that are unseen.

Great updates to this thread btw...this is interesting.

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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'?

Postby franspeakfree » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:31 pm

m0r1arty wrote:
I don't think of myself as psychic or any other such nonsense - I have always had a close bond with language, poetry in particular, and think that maybe I hear what I subconsciously search for.
-m0r


Psychic is a tag that I hate also, again in my 20's everyone thought I was psychic, heck even I thought I was psychic. I suppose the words psychic conjures up many images in our heads.

The fact that I can agree and empathize with what you have said suggests that we both can't be delusional. I mean when I speak to people I always hear internal thoughts that aren't my own and if I am (what I call connected) then I can hone in and get a pretty good idea of whats going on with someone and if I feel compelled to, I will speak to them about it. I will give you an example. I have just been on holiday to Barbados I was relaxed (its always clearer when i'm relaxed) I am sitting on a sun bed by the beach and I hear a man talking to another man about Haiti earthquake Automatically I 'connected' and I heard (although its not the right word) felt, understood, that I would get to know him during the holiday, I could see myself and my partner talking to him in the evening over a drink and talking about a certain topic. I said to my other half that I have a feeling we will get to know him. Straight away he came over to us and started talking and indeed we did get to know him and go out for drinks and meal with him and his wife and we did entertain some interesting topics.

This is just a small example of how my personal intuition,voices whatever you want to call it works. This is what I call a subtle connection.

A strong 'connection' would be something like what happened several months ago.

My friend who I have known for a long time, keeps his life very private and hardly ever opens up to any of us, came round our house after I had been meditating for an hour or so. As soon as I saw him I said to him "Why didn't you tell me" (it just came straight out), he looked at me all perplexed and said "what" and I said to him "Why didn't you tell me you were so depressed and sad" he looked at me and we just stared at each other after sometime and obviously thinking "how the hell did he know" then he began to tell me about his problems and we talked for hours that night He was pretty taken back by the whole experience and his views on 'intuition' changed from that day on.

The way I see it is like this, what made him come round to our house at the particular time?, what made me meditate?, what made me say what I said when I saw him?, what made him talk and open up to me?. All these questions and we haven't even scratched the surface we can go deeper still, why did he get depressed and sad? what made the things that made him depressed and sad occur in the first place? now I know for those people that read this and can't empathize with what I am saying, all of this can be explained scientifically, however, what I am trying to convey is that this is a regular occurrence with me, there are only so many times the word coincedence can be used.

When the coincedences become something of the ordinary day of life, a whole different world is opened up before your eyes and suddenly, fate,control, higher awareness, higher self, all come in to the equation, the more you see the more questions you have, its an never ending learning cycle.

I am glad I can open up a little, its been a long time.
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby m0r1arty » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:00 pm

Hey Fran, I'm glad you feel better for opening up.

I think my experiences of this are quite...boring - or as I prefer to term it; explainable.

I don't have any magical delusion or extra connectedness with the world, or people, as a whole. I don't detract for anyone else's experience by saying this. I'm only talking about myself and how I operate within my own mind so please don't think I am belittling anyone who does have 'magical' experiences.

I'm racking my brains trying to think of an easy way to put this forward.

OK. A real simple version of my 'skillz'. I get on a train. I see someone who looks shifty. Through either their conversation with me or through the conversation they have with someone which I overhear I know their motivations and can estimate with a high degree of success what will happen next. They either try to steal something, ask for loose change, try to start a relationship with someone of the opposite sex or otherwise coerce someone into their confidence.

Now this is a skill we all have. It's a social intelligence which stops us from being taken advantage of.

So imagine this same skill, which we all have, amplified so that it's not only suspicious looking strangers but everyone you meet, and it's not just one-shot attempts at a confidence trick, but an overarching strategy within a collection of overlapping social groups and circumstances. Now imagine hearing what people are saying to each other at a cursory level and interacting with them on that level with no problems but also imagine the loudest things you hear are the motivations and unspoken intentions of these people, within their groups, and the shifting of allegiances and long and short term goals to such a degree it is deafening.

This is what I hear. Again it's through posturing, language, tone and a whole bunch of subtle, yet significant to the trained eye, gestures.

To take this onto the media example of moving imagery (or indeed radio). One thing is displayed as being the main current of the program/advert and yet any film school student, political undergraduate or psychology learner could mention a wide range of other messages being brought across. I see and hear these things without any particular training and it's very hard for me to 'relax' and enjoy the tone of many entertainment programs as I can help but read 'too much' into them due to the overriding, underlying, forces which dilute all sense of 'fun'.

So whilst some people claim to have additional powers of perception, be it ESP or spirit guides, mine is just from having a mind that has one volume dial turned up too high which makes regular interaction more difficult to enjoy.

Don't get me wrong,it's a handicap I'm happy with. I often provide an insight which can make people laugh or consider a position differently from throw away comments that I haven't put much thought into, it helps with my poetry and lets me ponder communication in an abstract way - but it does make me wonder if everyone else is just playing a game of not noticing these things which I find grotesquely apparent.

I know I'm not the only one like this, there are loads of people who 'watch' and 'listen' and some give themselves away by verifying what they heard or saw through their own mannerisms - it would just be nice if we could maybe have a show of hands for a ratio or something.

Anyway - I too feel better now for that long winded explanation of my mundane, if lightly on overdrive, 'voice hearing' abilities.

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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby franspeakfree » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:32 pm

m0r1arty wrote:
Now this is a skill we all have. It's a social intelligence which stops us from being taken advantage of.

This is what I hear. Again it's through posturing, language, tone and a whole bunch of subtle, yet significant to the trained eye, gestures.
-m0r


Yes, absolutely, from reading your posts I can see that you think analytically whereas I just go with the flow what you are describing is what many call 'intuition' when people talk about spirit guides and magic powers people are using tags as best they can to describe the same thing that your trying to explain analytically. Some people would say they are psychic, others will say they are intuitive, others would say they have a natural ability, no matter how you look at it, its the same thing, just seen in a different light. However, when you start to go deeper and look at it through another set of eyes it encompasses much more. It unlocks a door that I believe has been purposely shut and bolted by whoever to dumb us down so not realize our true potential.

For example: Say I am looking at a live camera feed - I am looking at a person on live tv who is not aware they are being filmed. To them they are carrying on with their everyday life, however, unbeknown to them they are actually being broadcast around the world. When they become aware of what a camera is they base their opinions solely on what they know at that time, a camera records a live feed, therefore, they know that their actions are being recorded but for what purpose is unknown, they still have no idea that they are being broadcast to the world, however, as time goes on they learn more and more about the camera and the way it works, until eventually they realize that they are being broadcast to the whole world and that everyone has been able see them, unbeknown to the whole world though there is another camera pointing down on to them without them actually realizing this. The whole world had been so fixated on the person that didn't know they were being filmed, they had no idea that they were being filmed also.

If I were to talk to you face to face I could explain easier through body language, perception and dimension are the key elements to understanding just how much we don't know about 'life'
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'

Postby Access Denied » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:18 am

franspeakfree wrote:Indeed our science and logic dictates that everything that is described by an individual can be explained simply,because somehow we are under the arrogant assumption that we know everything and to those questions we do not hold the answers to, they are irrelevant and should not be discussed, or if so then a certain tone and ridicule must be added to validate our egos. (I use we and our as a collective hu-man race)

I’m afraid you may be confusing Scientific knowledge with Religious dogma… Science is open to incorporating new knowledge, Religion not so much.

That said, given by some estimates 90% or more of the world's population subscribes to one religious belief or another, you may have a point. :)

To expand a little on chrLz's comment, when it comes to personal experience, Science doesn’t pretend to have all the answers and Science recognizes that we aren’t all the same… don’t let anyone tell you different.

That said, by the same token, I think one must be careful not to presume their experiences are necessarily any more profound than anybody else’s or Universally applicable. :)

In that respect I definitely think it can help to talk about it.
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Re: Do you 'Hear Voices'?

Postby ryguy » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:59 pm

A lot of this is also perception - how you perceive a situation given pre-existing beliefs about how and why things happen. Just to flip things upside down (please keep an open mind here) - let's look at these scenarios from another perspective.

BTW, I don't use these examples to belittle your experiences - I am a strong believer in intuition and body language, however it's when a person crosses the line into the unknown realm of psychic powers (perceiving unknown information through mind-power alone) that I start to question the analysis of those experiences. Questioning the analysis is not questioning you - you come across as a very nice, very intelligent and thoughtful person. So I hope you do take my feedback in that light.

Here's my perspective on such events:

franspeakfree wrote:I will give you an example. I have just been on holiday to Barbados I was relaxed (its always clearer when i'm relaxed) I am sitting on a sun bed by the beach and I hear a man talking to another man about Haiti earthquake


In other words - this man gave off the persona of being extremely personable, talkative, and willing to enter conversation with just about anyone, about anything. Being intuitive, you make the reasonable deduction that if you stay near this man long enough, he will eventually talk to you. And being a social person yourself, you'll likely get to know him over the course of your vacation.

Your mind imagines what such a scenario would be like, and how it would play out.

Automatically I 'connected' and I heard (although its not the right word) felt, understood, that I would get to know him during the holiday, I could see myself and my partner talking to him in the evening over a drink and talking about a certain topic. I said to my other half that I have a feeling we will get to know him. Straight away he came over to us and started talking and indeed we did get to know him and go out for drinks and meal with him and his wife and we did entertain some interesting topics.


This shows that you read social cues and situations well. You pick up on small clues (often times without even realizing it) so well that you can pretty accurately predict what people are going to do next based on past experience with different personality types. Still - I call this evidence that you are extremely intuitive, but see nothing shocking or surprising about the prediction or the fact that it came true.

However - if you were sitting there out of earshot from a guy that was just sitting in his chair quietly reading a book, and you said, "You know, I think we're going to get to know him well," and then he stood up and unexpectedly came over to talk to you....now *THAT* would be unexpected and unpredictable (and could be entertained as borderline paranormal...)

See the difference?

My friend who I have known for a long time, keeps his life very private and hardly ever opens up to any of us, came round our house after I had been meditating for an hour or so. As soon as I saw him I said to him "Why didn't you tell me" (it just came straight out), he looked at me all perplexed and said "what"


Notice that at first he had no idea what you were talking about. He was perplexed. BTW, human nature is that when someone says "why didn't you tell me" - people automatically start going through all of the things in their head that they did wrong that may have impacted that person. At that moment he was probably stricken with a bit of fear that he did something wrong toward you without realizing it.

and I said to him "Why didn't you tell me you were so depressed and sad" he looked at me and we just stared at each other after sometime and obviously thinking "how the hell did he know" then he began to tell me about his problems and we talked for hours that night He was pretty taken back by the whole experience and his views on 'intuition' changed from that day on.


This is the power of suggestion. Try this exercise - go around to a random 5 people you know and ask them, "why didn't you tell me you were so depressed and sad?" I guarantee that most (if not all) of those people will start opening up to you about how depressed and sad they are about *something* in their lives. Seriously - who can't think of something they're sad about?

It's the suggestion that there's something wrong that caused the interaction to take place - do you see what I mean?

http://www.peacemotivate.com/2007/04/14 ... uggestion/

An experimenter repeatedly gives the subject the same suggestion: for example, she tells the subject that his body is swaying. Soon his body will begin to sway.


Now - if you'd said to someone before he arrived, "someone who is really depressed is going to show up," and then someone visits and without prompting starts describing how depressed they are - now *that* would be something. See the difference?

The way I see it is like this, what made him come round to our house at the particular time?


Did you ask? He likely had a reason for coming over before getting distracted/redirected by the questioning.

what made me meditate?


What makes you watch TV, use a computer or read a book?

what made me say what I said when I saw him?


Again - your strong intuition. You likely saw things in his demeanor, his face, his stance, his walk - implying there was a degree of sadness. So you asked.

Intuition, yes - but I see nothing too surprising about these events as described.

what made him talk and open up to me?


Your question about what was bothering him. People are usually more than willing to share grief with someone that asks.

now I know for those people that read this and can't empathize with what I am saying, all of this can be explained scientifically, however, what I am trying to convey is that this is a regular occurrence with me, there are only so many times the word coincedence can be used.


True - but the problem is that many people don't even understand their own abilities - they are non metaphysical, non-paranormal, and completely mundane....but that doesn't mean they aren't special. The ability to so carefully "read" other people is a powerful skill, but what makes it dangerous is when you start to ascribe metaphysical/paranormal characteristics to it. At least of these two examples, I see no evidence to suggest that.

That's not to say that maybe you have had the sort of unexplained, unexpected phenomenon take place, but the two examples you provided don't indicate that at all.

When the coincedences become something of the ordinary day of life, a whole different world is opened up before your eyes and suddenly, fate,control, higher awareness, higher self, all come in to the equation, the more you see the more questions you have, its an never ending learning cycle.


There's also a constant danger - a human nature - to read a lot into coincidences that take place. Once you start to read into them, your perception changes and incidents (like those you've described) are quickly perceived in the future in a way that confirms what you've come to believe. But if you're willing to set those beliefs aside and really examine what happens from an outside standpoint, you'll see how these events aren't even coincidence, they're perfectly explainable.

I am glad I can open up a little, its been a long time.


Please don't take my analysis as negative - what I'm hoping is that you might share some additional examples of any incidents that are *truly* unexplainable. Such as saying something is about to happen and then, without your prompting, it happens. I've spoken with people where such things happen, and it's difficult and sometimes impossible to explain away!

I look forward to learning more!

-Ryan
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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