Your favorite UFO image/s?

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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:14 pm

Logical. But I do have one issue with that, which may or may not be valid, or may lie in between (semivalid).

With Ruppelt's plan it would have been a military exercise carried out by radar operators, who would also get photos, since the telescopes and cameras would be tied in with the radar system. He didn't specifically mention in the book that a pro-saucer finding would be disclosed to the public, and there might be a convincing moral reason not to, aside from the rants about panic, power, religion, stock-market crash, etc. It's that what people really want is their own feeling of accomplishment. People don't want things done for them that they feel they can and should do themselves. It's insulting. Writers tend to resent every little correction an editor makes, even though they help make a writer look good in the end, and kids bug their parents to death to remove the training wheels from their bicycles. It's human nature.

So imagine how researchers, teachers, and even students would feel if they suddenly heard that some outsiders were coming in and going to show them that much of their research, what they have been teaching, or what they have learned over the years is wrong.

If you tell me aliens 39 light-years away on a planet a billion years older than Earth are watching us through advanced space-based telescope arrays, even if they are downloading our music, literature, etc., okay, but I don't want to hear that my education, my life's work, my new DB9, and every appliance in my house is suddenly obsolete. It's like the Prime Directive in Star Trek: Let less advanced cultures have the dignity of
developing on their own; don't play God, and don't make contact until they're ready.

Maybe that's bunk to a certain degree, but in giving foreign aid, farm tools seem to be better appreciated by the recipients than bags of grain.

The point is that if some organization is doing a comprehensive skywatch, and its operators are given a convincing moral argument against revealing alien visitation, if there really is any (I don't know), what are they going to do, play along and hide it (not an attractive choice, of course) or tell the government agents to pound sand? I don't know. Some former radar operators who watched for Soviet missile attacks claim they tracked targets doing things nothing known to man could do but were under orders to keep quiet. Maybe they're telling the truth, maybe not. But in this case, it's not orders but whether or not operators of a civilian skywatch service would buy the argument that mankind isn't ready--if there really is something going on out there besides ball lightning or whatever.

Skywatch is good. I'll just trust them and trust the lunatic pilots that claim to have seen ETCs not to crash into my house.

By the way, I checked the Web and saw an article claiming that the head of that meteor watch assumed that what six witnesses who reported a large gleaming ball surrounded by a dark ring traveling 100 feet off the ground was probably a meteor and provided questionnaires for them to fill out. The article showed the completed questionnaires and some newspaper articles but sort of ended with nothing about astronomer Dr. Ed Majden's response to the questionnaires or any shouting matches that may have ensued.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby James Carlson » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:30 pm

After Roy Craig wrote his book UFOs: An Insider's View of the Official Quest for Evidence about his work with the Condon UFO Study, he said that he included the bit about Echo Flight for only one reason: to show that even a highly classified incident such as the failure of a full flight of nuclear missiles could not remain secret if it were associated with UFOs -- even the mere rumor of UFOs. Now that was a case in which the maintenance of secrecy was a legal imperative, and one that was easily justified as a moral issue. After all, in 1967 our maintenance of the nuclear missile forces was considered almost universally to be a deterrent system that strengthened our defensive capabilities. It was widely accepted that keeping such matters as the failure of a full flight of missiles secret was justifiable on ethical grounds for that very reason, and yet within a very short period that secrecy was compromised simply because UFO rumors were associated with it. It was also considered a moral issue, because President Johnson was in the process of developing a formal treaty with the Soviet Union -- the first of its kind, and one that was intended not only to limit the number of active nuclear missiles established for a deterrent cause, but to govern as well the methods used in the development and testing of nuclear arms. They ended up doing away with open air nuclear tests completely, a decision that was thought to be a moral imperative by everyone who was aware of it, regardless of their normal adherence to liberal or conservative policy. The justification for maintaining that secrecy was universal -- a characteristic that is exceptionally rare in military and diplomatic culture and jurisprudence. And yet, as we've seen, its association with rumors of UFOs was all that was needed to brush the legal and moral implications of that secrecy aside. Granted, to a large extent that secrecy was compromised by a very small number of men (I personally believe it was only one man who managed to endanger that effect), but the point is, the secrecy was indeed jeopardized, simply because UFOs were associated with the case in question. The argument "that mankind isn't ready" simply isn't relevant -- no argument is. The information is too big and its implications are too widespread to maintain as a secret, military or diplomatic. If, as you've posited, "some organization is doing a comprehensive skywatch, and its operators are given a convincing moral argument against revealing alien visitation", I don't believe it would matter very much. The implications are too pervasive to human existence. It would be like trying to keep bodily and mental resurrection of the dead a secret. It's beyond the bounds of human nature. In any case, should a UFO studies group -- a NICAP or a MUFON -- establish "a comprehensive skywatch", I think we can safely assume that they would release the information immediately, even if just to thumb their their noses at everyone who said "God, what a bunch of cranks" every time they organized another NPC press conference. The point is, none of these groups have managed or even attempted to set up something like this, and it wouldn't be that difficult to do. And this failure indicates, to me at any rate, that their goals encompass some other need than proof of UFO visitation or the accuracy of such claims. And since everything they try to accomplish in the field involves money (in one way or another), I've concluded to my own satisfaction that their ultimate goals involve money as well. And if that's the case, moral issues can probably be dismissed entirely, at least in my opinion.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:52 pm

Mudslinging. Make mine a double! I'm not familiar with the full cast of characters, but I'll admit I get bad vibes from a lot of them. But what about the media? Just to take one minor point, they (even Scientific American) were virtually unanimous in telling us that the new century and millennium started in 2000, which would mean the first century and millennium started in the year zero, which doesn't even exist in fiction, as far as I know. On January 1, 1901, the start of the 20th century was just a minor page-one item and certainly not announced a year early.

Anyway, I assume the Nellis range radar-video thing on YouTube is fake just because I certainly would have had the skills to fake it myself using the equipment available at the time, but it serves as a demonstration of what Captain Ruppelt's proposal could have produced, although he wasn't talking about video and was looking for better resolution, I think. I'm sure everyone has seen this. The other reason it screams fake is that, since it's Nellis, the Air Force wasn't going to comment on it. The fact that it changes shape I consider irrelevant. A real ETC should look weird in flight if it has to thumb its nose at Einstein just to stay aloft and should only look normal to us when parked with the engine off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L4CBIeNFY0

But the Lockheed Martin P-791 looks something like that but doesn't zip around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUkCyXCqUx8

And a couple of foreign governments have released what they call UFO footage that looks similar. So I might wrong in assumming it's fake.

And CUFOS did have an automated photo system, where pictures were taken continuously then analyzed by software for lights not normally there. Anything found was saved, and the rest was discarded when the storage medium was reused. But it didn't zoom in. By the time analysis took place, any cause of an unusual light in the sky would be gone. So all they got was photos of the same scene, a few over the course of several years with strange lights in the distance--not identifiable and certainly not impressive, but a seemingly honest effort.

I downloaded Major Keyhoe's first book and got as far as the part near the end where he and the editor of True agreed that they would drop the whole thing if it turned out to be a matter of national security. And you know Stanton Friedman said that at one time it was the right thing to do to keep a lid on on it but that he feels that time has passed. I don't know. If I were President and knew that aliens were here and I had to decide whether or not to disclose, it wouldn't just be, "Sure, why not?" I'd want to know how best to deal with the energy/global-warming issue and eliminate poverty, nukes, and nuclear waste worldwide and take care of things like water management first and then ease into the business of joining the galactic community--not that the U.S. President necessarily speaks for the world.

In Star Trek they make a big deal about noninterference and not contaminating a culture. In our own space exploration, we have a moral issue about Mars if indigenous life is discovered still surviving. Some say it should be left alone even if it's only microbial life. And zoos have a moral thing about not keeping animals if the species in question doesn't somehow benefit from that. But those guys and gals are not lawyers, pro wrestlers or--what's the RU expression?--Scammers, Inc.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:35 am

Okay, another hopefully juicy photo, an old one analyzed to death already that came with the word four F-86 pilots, who said it looked metallic, although overexposed in the photo.

The Maccabbe analysis and photos:
http://brumac.8k.com/RJC/RJC.html
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby nablator » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:27 am

LCARS24 wrote:The Maccabbe analysis and photos:
http://brumac.8k.com/RJC/RJC.html

"the film imagery seems to show that the object illuminated the clouds just below it"

Hmmm... no. Bruce Maccabee makes the baseless assumption that the object is self illuminated and the cloudlike extension underneath is just a cloud.

The "object" does not look brighter than the brightest clouds. White is white... Only the contrast between the "object" and nearby clouds makes it stand out. A gap in the cloud cover on the left could have done the trick, the direct sunlight reflecting on this lower "object" (lenticular cloud) making it shine more than the others. The "object" seems to be illuminated from the left just like the other clouds (darker on the right).

Throwing math at the reader is not going to help. Garbage in garbage out.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:19 am

It could be a disc-shaped balloon. I've seen a picture of one, video of another in flight, and one actually in the sky.

This was seen by four pilots, and they made no claim that it was an alien spacecraft, mentioned no exotic flight characteristics (in fact, they said it stayed put while in their view), that it was up there in the clouds, looked like giant silver dollar, and that the object was overexposed in the photo.

Any prosaic explanation should fit their description and certainly not in any way seem to question the veracity of four RCAF pilots. And that lets out plasma and ball lightning, since they said it looked like a huge silver dollar.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:34 am

Hardly fit for a magazine cover, but . . .

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm30 ... 050167.png

About the Montana film, this is from NICAP:

The F-94 aircraft were observed by the photographer behind him coming in for a landing. Photogrammetric analysis [See Section VIII] states there are "several factors which make such a hypothesis quite strained." Persistence of reflection from alleged aircraft "would require a very rare coincidence of airplane maneuver."


And from Captain Ruppelt:

In 1952, at the request of the Pentagon, I reopened the investigation of the Montana Movie. Working through an intelligence officer at the Great Falls AFB, I had Mariana reinterrogated and obtained a copy of his movie, which I sent to the photo lab.


I'm sure Captain Ruppelt would have checked the flight paths of those F-94s if it had been a fresh case. The original investigators could blown it out of the water by doing so if Mariana had been lying about that, but it's probably impossible to find out now, and apparently Captain Ruppelt wasn't able to find out, either.

About the Utah film, I could say that the photographer thought he was doing his duty by reporting it and turning over the film, and that those who chose to disregard his testimony were just following orders, but here are the comments from NICAP:

http://lcars24.com/UtahFilm.rtf
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby elevenaugust » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:32 pm

LCARS24 wrote:Okay, another hopefully juicy photo, an old one analyzed to death already that came with the word four F-86 pilots, who said it looked metallic, although overexposed in the photo.

The Maccabbe analysis and photos:
http://brumac.8k.com/RJC/RJC.html

In spite of the pilots testimonies, makes me think of a reflection in the window of something (maybe sun reflection of a metallic object) inside the cockpit...
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby elevenaugust » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:08 pm

No news about your project, ChLrz? :?:

I'm still very interested in the follow-up and ready for any help, if necessary.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby chrLz » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:24 pm

elevenaugust wrote:No news about your project, ChLrz? :?:
I'm still very interested in the follow-up and ready for any help, if necessary.

First, bonus points for spelin my nayme rite!!

News is... I'm still a little time-challenged, but it is a lot closer than it was. I gotta confess, I am still vacillating on how to draw it all together.. Should I go all serious and dry.. OR should it be "How to 'Analyse' Imagery to Ensure You Reveal Alien Technology (aka How UFOlogy Abuses Image Analysis)". The how-not-to approach is probably easier, and I guess I can expand on it later with the specific topics that show the way of righteousness.. :D

BTW, thanks to all for the seemingly endless Maccabee examples. I have plenty of ammo just from that one culprit... I don't know how many times I've thought "You CAN'T do that..!!!" when reading his stuff..

Apologies to all, appreciate your patience.

{thinks..} Geez, I hope it's worth it. The pressure.. :shock:
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:37 pm

Well, we agree that photo analysts can be fooled and we need documentation. But even if some guy with undeniable credentials came forward as a whistleblower tomorrow with copies of what he claimed were the photos and film that Gordon Cooper turned over years ago, people would still question his veracity, this hairstyle, etc.

And we say we want stereophotographs, but Dr. Hynek started carrying such a camera and once took several sets of photos of a mysterious object from a plane, and it's considered no big deal. Parallax suggests it was about 25 miles away. At least that's something we rarely get with UFO photos, although some skywatchers today are setting up equipment like that and adding infrared.

Image

But we might as well add this one, from Pueto Rico, 1980. There were hundreds of witnesses, and a couple of dozen called the cops, resulting in ten police polaroids (but, of course, no radar or satellite data--these guys are not MUFON bloodhounds):

http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/ ... oto391.htm

So what? Would photo analysis be aimed at trying to prove that the police officer who responded to a call and took this particular photo in front of witnesses viewing the object was perpetrating a hoax or to conclude that it couldn't be proved or disproved and should just become another yawner like so many others, with the notion that even though it looks legit one photo (actually, ten in this case) doessn't prove the case overall? Or maybe there's some other way to shoot down this particular case (balloon stunt, whatever).
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby elevenaugust » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:56 pm

chrLz wrote:
elevenaugust wrote:No news about your project, ChLrz? :?:
I'm still very interested in the follow-up and ready for any help, if necessary.

First, bonus points for spelling my name right!!


Oupps, I'm very sorry, chrLz.... :oops:

If it can help, I have a full collection of misidentifications/misintrepretations images examples that could help you in your project, I can post these here or opening a new subject for comments and opinions.
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby chrLz » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:19 am

elevenaugust wrote:Oupps, I'm very sorry, chrLz.... :oops:

No, no - don't apologise! I wasn't being sarcastic - you did get it right - I don't care about the capitalisation, but most people still think it's CHRIZ, even after I capitalised the L so they would 'get it'.

If it can help, I have a full collection of misidentifications/misintrepretations images examples that could help you in your project, I can post these here or opening a new subject for comments and opinions.

Well, I'd love to take a look and maybe cherry pick a few, but I feel like I'm creating a monster.. I probably have enough fodder, but that doesn't stop me wanting to look at more stuff... :D

At some point I need to draw the line and say, "right that's it, just finish the dam thing!"...

even if some guy with undeniable credentials came forward as a whistleblower tomorrow with copies of what he claimed were the photos and film that Gordon Cooper turned over years ago, people would still question his veracity, this hairstyle, etc.

Lcars, even though I'm doing this about image analysis, that's actually the basic point of this - it's largely not about the image.. Yes, there are bad 'analyses' out there, yes, I can criticise them and point out what you can and cannot do, and what techniques and assumptions might or might not be valid, and a lot of other things that can be right or wrong with any given 'analysis'.

But when it comes down to it, an image* is a limited resolution, 2-dimensional representation of a dynamic (ie moving) 3-d scene. Even if it is compelling, the backstory is still probably going to be the thing you need to focus on (pun intended) to actually come to any useful determination. So yes, it IS about his veracity, and possibly hairstyle..


* - Ok, if it's video, you might be able to glean a bit of info about angular motion, but you have probably lost a lot of resolution - I mean let's face it.. anyone seen a decent ufo video? Nellis, maybe..?

Oh, and I hesitate to say this, after my comments above, but do you have a link to that Hynek stereo camera determination of 25 miles? I'd like to see that..
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Re: Your favorite UFO image/s?

Postby LCARS24 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:23 pm

About the Hynek photos, I don't remember where I saw the opinion about the distance. I think it was just
based on seeing no parallax between two mated shots. And, as I mentioned about the Canadian photo, those Skyhook balloons could look like a disc if viewed from above when half inflated, a rare circumstance but not impossible.

Skyhook balloon:
Image

Here's an ATS thread about the Hynek photos:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread735428/pg1

More relevant in that regard would be the Project Twinkle cinetheodolite film taken from more than one location simultaneously, never to be available, but I've heard some people are trying to organize the same sort of thing now.
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