Ancient aliens

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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:54 pm

Arghhh... I hate it when I can't edit a post or quote it - get this message:
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby Tim Hebert » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:16 pm

From ufosense:
The "trial" pyramids are an excellent point and a good argument against the theory that aliens had something to do with the Gaza pyramids. For some strange reason, the show failed to mention them.

That's a telling point of contention. Of course the "trial and error" approach was not mentioned...that would have defeated the program's premise that the ancient cultures and civilizations were too primitive to have constructed pyramids and such with out the help of more advanced intelligent beings...Aliens.

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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:41 pm

Tim Hebert wrote:From ufosense:
The "trial" pyramids are an excellent point and a good argument against the theory that aliens had something to do with the Gaza pyramids. For some strange reason, the show failed to mention them.

That's a telling point of contention. Of course the "trial and error" approach was not mentioned...that would have defeated the program's premise that the ancient cultures and civilizations were too primitive to have constructed pyramids and such with out the help of more advanced intelligent beings...Aliens.

Tim


I agree, I was aiming for irony, when I mentioned the lack of this on the show.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:42 pm

ufosense wrote:Arghhh... I hate it when I can't edit a post or quote it - get this message:
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The forum doesn't seem to be very fond of Macs. Works well now - in Windows.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:50 pm

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:hi all.

strangely enough, ive started watching ancient aliens and have watched most episodes online in the last week, the programme is very interesting but by far the most annoying thing for me is that almost every one of the people that give their opinions are authors of some loony ufo book, i would really like to see far more counter argument from top engineers and scientists from places like m.i.t etc etc.

the second most annoying thing is georgio tsoukalos hair........ not to forget his huge leap of faith conclusion answer for everything "must have been extraterrestrials".......

thanks

rich


Oh my god.... the hair. It kept me going throughout the show - what would it look like next? :)

Can you trust a guy with such a crazy hair? Oops, come to think of it:

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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:52 pm

LCARS24 wrote:The Great Pyramid was built with geopolyer, with each stone cast in place, and it took only 20 years. Once the materials were used up, the technology was eventually lost, as well. Some later pyramids were built with sandstone, not cast. One took 1,500 years to complete.

Here's a demonstration of people making a pyramid block for real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FuJAbTmaLI

The narrator of the video is Dr. Joseph Davidovits, who discovered in the 1970s how it was done.

Pyramid limestone can be distinguished from natural limestone only with a powerful microscope. A famous geologist once looked (using the pocket microscope he always carries) at a piece that Dr. Davidvits had made and incorrectly pronounced it natural, refusing to believe otherwise.

Here's a well-researched book that documents it in great detail:

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Pyramid-Sec ... 0972043462

The author has worked with Dr. Davidovits since shortly after his discovery and coauthored some of his books.

By the way, the outside facing stones were stolen about 700 years ago to rebuild Cairo after a major earthquake. You can see a few remaining facing stones near the top, still in good condition.


Yes, they are impressive enough today - I can hardly imagine how amazing they looked after their construction.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby ufosense » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:58 pm

Rather than replying to each post: thanks guys for all the interesting information! This is exactly what I was looking for, a good dose of reality to counterweigh the exciting ideas of the show.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby LCARS24 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:21 am

James Carlson cited this paper by Dipayan Jana:
http://www.cmc-concrete.com/CMC%20Publi ... 20ICMA.pdf

However, whatever the argument, Jana turns out to be wrong because of the carbon-14 tests Dr. Michel Barsoum commissioned, which prove that the Lauer sample cannot be natural rock. (There are few samples available. You can't just go chipping pieces off the Great Pyramid. You don't want to know what the penalty is for that. Most of these detractors have become convinced by now, after seeing the data, but they're not exactly shouting it from the rooftops. I don't know what Jana's position is on this now.)

Here's Dr. Michel Barsoum's site on this subject:
http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Pyramids/

This tells who he is:
http://www.materials.drexel.edu/Faculty/Barsoum/

On YouTube, here's Dr. Barsoum's lecture (with slides) explaining it in detail:
(in 7 parts but not boring)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... 09l0.2l2l0

But the most thorough coverage of this subject is in this book I cited initially:
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Pyramid-Sec ... 0972043462
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:13 am

Carbon-14 tests can't determine whether something is synthetic or not. It isn't an applicable argument. It's a moot point in any case; there is a tremendous amount of evidence proving the use of ramps for construction of the pyramids and the cutting of huge blocks of limestone taken from the quarries, removed on ramps, sailed down the Nile, and used on the pyramids -- you're ignoring all that to support a theory that concrete was established by the Egyptians a thousand years before anyplace else, and was then invonveniently forgotten. I don't buy it, and there are no established Egyptologists willing to buy it either. You've proven that it was possible, but that possibility alone is not sufficient to establish these claims. I don't want to get into a silly argument, because in the long run it has nothing to do with the possibility of alien manufacture, but I don't think you're quite aware of the amount of evidence your theory is forced to ignore. The use of ramps to transport hundred ton blocks and more of limestone and granite to construct the pyramids is an established fact. The use of concrete hasn't been proven, and can't be supported.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby LCARS24 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:32 pm

I really shouldn't have to point out that carbon-14 testing is to determine the approximate age of a sample, in this case either hundreds of millions of years if it's natural limestone or a few thousand if it's geopolymer. The lab concluded that the sample was definitely in the range of thousands, not hundreds of millions, of years.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:21 pm

LCARS24 wrote:I really shouldn't have to point out that carbon-14 testing is to determine the approximate age of a sample, in this case either hundreds of millions of years if it's natural limestone or a few thousand if it's geopolymer. The lab concluded that the sample was definitely in the range of thousands, not hundreds of millions, of years.

I don't know where you're getting your science from, but you're wrong. The amount of carbon-14 in a sample of limestone doesn't change merely because you've crushed it up and added some water. If you're getting carbon-14 tests indicating an age of a few thousand years in limestone, whether it's been crushed or cut out in hundred ton chunks, then your sample has been contaminated. Carbon-14 is a biological residue, and that residue in limestone is consistent regardless of what you do to the limestone itself. Unfortunately, limestone is a relatively porous material, so if the limestone has been exposed to rainwater soaked with decaying matter or has absorbed additional carbon from other sources, then your results are going to show that contamination. It stands to reason that the white limestone used in the original plaster covering of the pyramid, being open to the elements as it was, would absorb more carbon over the years then anything interior in the substandard limestone. That doesn't prove that it was "synthesized" a few thousand years ago. It merely proves that it was contaminated a few thousand years ago.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby LCARS24 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:42 am

They don't just add water. A simple explanation of the chemistry involved is here:

http://gpc.latech.edu/basis.htm

Dr. Barsoum ordered a radiocarbon dating test on the Laurer sample, They would have taken a small shaving, determined the carbon content and then measured the carbon-14 content of that particular sample, from which they could calculate an approximate age.

I can't find the article on-liine that described it in detail. But part of it is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20341533/Micr ... s-of-Egypt
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:07 am

It doesn't matter. Carbon-14 content of limestone is fixed. Any findings of of a few thousand years will always be based on a contaminated sample, and that contaminant isn't going to be based on the fact that it's treated as concrete instead of a block cutting. It's contaminated because it's on the outermost part of the pyramid. It's convenient for the claims that the only "bricks" supposedly made from this concrete concoction were also on the outside of the pyramid, i.e., the white limestone, but the fact that this particular hole in the theory (and it isn't the only one, by far) is so big that you can literally fit another pyramid into it is more than sufficient reason to ignore it until some better evidence is applied to the theory. In any case, that's what I intend to do.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby James Carlson » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:23 am

I watched (for the first time) an episode of "Ancient Aliens" today, and was stunned at the producer's ability to make claims that just cannot be supported in any way. Please don't be offended if you're a fan of the show, but I thought it was a ridiculous exercise in rewriting history in order to make uneducated guesses in regard to regional histories, and even then they had to make claims that are simply wrong in order to do so. We, the audience, were taken from Karnak to South America, and on to Turkey, to the complex of structures at Göbekli Tepe, the oldest man-made religious structure yet discovered. That last tells a good story and remains an incredibly important find to any assessment of human history.

Linda Moulton Howe, however, stated that these massive structures were carved from stone, but we have no idea how this was accomplished so long ago, since no tools for constructing such monoliths have ever been found that could have been used. She fails to mention, however, that these T-shaped pillars were carved from limestone, a very soft stone that was used over many thousands of years precisely for that reason. These limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located about 100 meters from the hilltop, not a very far distance to drag large stone structures. Neolithic workers used flint points to carve the bedrock, many of which have been found throughout the region and all over the site. They've even discovered unfinished pillars in the quarry region. So, yes, the site is extremely old, and it represents an amazing find that has already restructured our knowledge of ancient history, but it has not been associated with anything that suggests a non-human origin. The show also suggests a relationship to Noah's Ark, merely because a bunch of animals were carved into some of the pillars. In light of the fact that they've also uncovered hundreds of animals bones that were used as sources of food, most of the animals carved into the pillars were predators and all of the depictions are of animals native to the region, how sad is that?

They also suggested that the "flying" gods that were so important to South American development, such as Quetzlcoatl, the feathered serpent, were actually symbols of flying saucers. Do they have anything other than the tenuous connection to flight to support these claims? Of course not! Do they assert any cultural basis to the claims? Not a single one! They just toss out the idea for our consideration, a pathetic and transparent attempt to establish an association that has never existed in any form whatsoever. We might as well insist that our common affirmations of paranoid nightmares that include a few elements of flight and/or falling sensations must represent instances of abduction by these same aliens. Waitaminute ... cross that out; let's not make any more ridiculous suggestions.

David Childress comes on and insists that the stones of Karnak were impossible for neolithic man to move, but does he present evidence to support such claims? Heavens no -- he just tosses it out for consideration, and since a million idiots won't generally educate themselves on the subject, they tend to believe that he wouldn't make such suppositions unless there was evidence to support it.

The show confirms as well that the structures of Karnak indicate a use and knowledge of solstice points, and yet a lot of ancient peoples were aware of these conditions. Knowledge of solstice and time was important to ancient peoples, but it's difficult to wonder what possible importance or need to understand such matters ancient aliens may have possessed. Do they even try to understand why an extraterrestrial race would concern themselves with solstice points on the planet Earth? They don't even raise the issue; they just want us to wonder about the need for an exact calendar made from stone! Consider this: it took decades sometimes to create these structures; why would visitors from outer space waste so much time on the creation of a calendar? Even today we have no neeed or desire to do so. We just look at the little number on our watch, or the calendar hanging on the refrigerator! You want to know about solstice points? Fine, look it up; it isn't so hard to find anymore, which is why we don't build huge stone calendars -- it's a pain in the ass to do it. But apparently, according to these uneducated cretins, so much effort was put into the tasks of our ancestors because the alien gods of our halcyon youth made it necessary. Why, for God's sake, all pun intended? Wasn't ET capable of creating a calendar of his own? Couldn't Osiris figure out when the next solar eclipse was going to occur even after he and his family had suppoosedly mastered space travel? Are we supposed to believe that Isis or Apollo had to enslave thousands for decades in order to build what we can now get for $12.00 had any Walmart, all because he just had to know when October turned into November on our lonely little planet?

This show actually insisted that the alignments and calculations of the pillars at Karnak tended to confirm the mathematical Pythagorean Theorem, insisting that because such mathematical tools were not described until the Greeks made the connection thousands of years later, they couldn't be used in the creation and arrangement of ancient structures. They neglected to mention, however, that the Pythagorean Theorem merely describes the natural relationships between the angles and associated lengths of connective extensions of right triangles, so although they will always reflect associations with the Pythagorean Theorem, knowledge of the theorem isn't necessary to create such structures -- the only thing necessary is the construction of one form perpendicular to another. Any supposition that neolithic builders were incapable of creating a right angle is absolutely insane! Knowledge of the Pythagorean Theorem is simply not necessary to build anything unless you're also describing the mathematics used in the first place, something I don't believe neolithic architects were attempting to accomplish. Are we supposed to believe that all of the classical structures raised by the Greeks and everybody else on the planet prior to Pythagoras describing these mathematical relationships were also impossible without extraterrestrial assistance?

Forgive me for harping on it, but the people making these claims are idiots for thinking it might be useful to imagine these sad little "what ifs ..." Some of the many other subjects of their musings alone spell out the real story pretty well, as far as I'm concerned:

An American immigrant in the last century builds a huge stone park -- Coral Gate park -- for a girlfriend who never came to America; he says he discovered a way to nullify gravity, and was able to construct these monolithic blocks and put them together to build Coral Castle all by himself. They actually believed the guy! He said he did it with old technology, the rediscovered means used to construct the pyramids, but had this been true, he could have been a billionaire and would have been a much more convincing recipient of his ex-girlfriend's affection. Apparently, becoming a huge success didn't matter much to him, but keeping a revolutionary secret capable of transforming the world while using it to build a stone park in memory of unrequited love is far more believable than the proposition that he built the place using conventional tools. It's a sickening rebuttal of human intelligence and nothing more.

Rock wall drawings are treated to modern artistic criticisms. "Look at the eyes, the shape of the head." He insists that the resemblance is naturally that of the "greys". Ancient art cannot be judged in the same way we judge the State Fair artistic contributions of fifth graders! Art throughout history is more often abstract than anything else, and realism is a modern attribute, so any foolish claim that a bunch New Guinea pagans or Columbian, blood-loving, temple doodlers are such accomplished artistic realists that their carvings can be judged as more typical of the Washington Post Sunday magazine than the neo-historic visual ramblings of Richard Serra and other postmodern artists is plainly a joke!

The show claims that Joseph Smith, the creator of Mormonism, actually communicated with aliens and that this was how the "The Book of Mormon" was discovered. So all of the claims made prior to this that Smith was a scam artist who was arrested at least twice for forging old documents and attempting to sell them was just a temporary aberration. The fact that ET was completely wrong upon asserting that the Hebrews colonized America, proof of which has been repeatedly confirmed by genetic sampling of Native American populations, is irrelevant, I suppose. It's important to stress only the alien assessment of the angel Moroni and not the numerous inconsistencies and false statements that he supposedly made to his great prophet.

Circular markings or spirals carved into stone must represent flying discs, as if humans were incapable of coming up with such symbols for ourselves. This show is insulting, and nothing else. I could only watch 30-40 minutes before turning it off in complete disgust. I don't mean to offend anybody who enjoys watching this crap, but these people are transparently pandering to a bunch of idiots who are incapable of studying real history for themselves. The fact that it's on the History Channel is, frankly, disgusting. They're reaching out for new audiences, advertisers, and quick cash by forgetting why the History Channel was created in the first place. I guess that's natural when your worthy intentions become corporate property and profits are now more important than good intentions. History disappears, overwhelmed by the idiocy engendered by poor education. They try to calm their detractors by repeatedly asserting the mantra "some people believe that ..." blah, blah, blah, but some people also believe that walking through the metal detectors at the airport will give you cancer, and nobody's creating new theologies or attempting to convince us that their paranoia is based on fact, so this negation of the claims as based on the belief of others and deserves exploration for that reason is a cop out, especially since they're actually making claims that are completely untrue, unfounded, and unbelieved by anybody with any real education (i.e., see Linda Moulton Howe above).

I don't believe that I'll be watching that bit of tripe again. Just because some Indian in a feathered headdress is willing to go on television and claim that an idea he had one day in the long ago must have been a telepathic communication from an alien species is not sufficient to hold my interest as a historic reality upon which to base the needs of peoples a few thousand years ago. I might suggest that it represents a form of dissociative cognizance that has been ignored by the individual up to now, but anything else can be safely dismissed as ramblings and the manipulation of the television audience. This show is crap, and the producers should be ashamed of themselves for having created it.
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Re: Ancient aliens

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:35 pm

And the winner of post of the year goes to...

Great post James, this in particular had me nodding like a nodding dog on a particularly bumpy road.*
*UK reference, may not translate.

Knowledge of solstice and time was important to ancient peoples, but it's difficult to wonder what possible importance or need to understand such matters ancient aliens may have possessed. Do they even try to understand why an extraterrestrial race would concern themselves with solstice points on the planet Earth? They don't even raise the issue; they just want us to wonder about the need for an exact calendar made from stone! Consider this: it took decades sometimes to create these structures; why would visitors from outer space waste so much time on the creation of a calendar?


People like the so-called "experts" on these shows have a very low opinion of humanity and its achievements throughout the ages. Because they lack the common sense and the intelligence to understand the how, why and when, they automatically assume everyone else must be as stupid as they are.

They weren't, and they aren't.

Again, great post :)
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